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      11-10-2011, 11:11 AM   #23
robertm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo View Post
So we agree this is a fairly weak tune?

People have been running GIAC & ESS for a while now: half the cost, better numbers, no problems (that I've heard of).
Seems to be a very weak tune compared to everyone else out there. You do get the benefit of the Dinan warranty coverage which is worth the money for some.

The 135 guys have been running GIAC, ESS and Cobb for a number of years now and I've never heard of anyone having issues with a typical 'stage 1' level tune. And yes, they are all about 50% less expensive.

Also with some tuners you get the benefit of being able to load/unload using a module that plugs into the OBDII port under the dash. This is very convenient because if there is a software update or BMW reflashes your ECU you can simply reload it sitting in your garage in about 15 minutes. With Dinan you will have to bring the car back to the center that did the 'install'.
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      11-10-2011, 12:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
Seems to be a very weak tune compared to everyone else out there. You do get the benefit of the Dinan warranty coverage which is worth the money for some.
Thinking about this some more and not positive what I said is in fact correct. It's hard to say how they really stack up. All the other tuners provide dyno to the wheels numbers. The dyno's they use routinely seem to be more optimistic than the 'factory' dyno numbers. Plus when you convert back to the crank there's a percentage loss. We don't know what Dinan is calculating that loss at. Is it 15% or 12%?

So, who really knows. I would expect Dinan's stage 2 to be similar to everyone elses standard stage 1 software probably just a little more conservative. This is just speculation though.

Without dyno plots to the wheels it's really hard to understand their product compared to everyone else in the market.
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      11-10-2011, 12:24 PM   #25
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Dinan has ALWAYS been conservative with their tunes, but I can assure you, they are the most reliable...
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      11-10-2011, 12:51 PM   #26
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I agree that Dinan is a reliable company, however IMHO the tune is too much $$ and no flash loader... it stays with the car regardless.
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      11-10-2011, 01:09 PM   #27
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I was just looking at the evolve dyno plots in another thread. They show flywheel and crank numbers. Simple math shows they are using 17% drivetrain loss. So, using that on the Dinan number of 378 at the crank gives 314 HP at the wheels. Multiple other dynos have shown the factory power to be 300hp at the wheels.

Again, who know's if Dinan's dynamometer is more conservative than most. It would be really nice if they gave a before and after HP numbers. Not just 'with our software HP'
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      11-10-2011, 02:11 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
I was just looking at the evolve dyno plots in another thread. They show flywheel and crank numbers. Simple math shows they are using 17% drivetrain loss. So, using that on the Dinan number of 378 at the crank gives 314 HP at the wheels. Multiple other dynos have shown the factory power to be 300hp at the wheels.

Again, who know's if Dinan's dynamometer is more conservative than most. It would be really nice if they gave a before and after HP numbers. Not just 'with our software HP'
Well, to give you an idea, here are details for the stage 2 tune for 135i/335i.
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      11-10-2011, 02:23 PM   #29
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Sooooooo.....let's see....

378 hp @ 5700 rpm and 415 lb-ft @ 4300 for the 1M

384 hp @ 5700 rpm and 421 lb-ft @ 4300 for the 135i




Even according to DINAN's website:

The stage II tune will make the tuned 135= tuned 1M (378/378 and 415/415)
My prediction is not too many 1M owners will even consider this tune....
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      11-10-2011, 02:30 PM   #30
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The Dinan chart above is interesting. It looks like Dinan is calculating with only an 11% drivetrain loss for the 135. Who knows if its the same for the 135 and 1M though. If it is then their at the wheels power is 336 HP.

One thing doesn't jive with me though. They are stating the stock max power of the 135 is 332 HP at the crank. BMW claims 300 at the crank right? So BMW is sandbagging then? If that's the case is it safe to assume they are sandbaggind the 1M crank 335 HP too? Well they must be because we all know that its more powerful than a stock 135. If that's the case then what's it really making? 350 hp or 360 hp? It that's in fact true, then Dinan's published 378 crank hp is basically nothing.
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      11-10-2011, 02:39 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
Interesting. It looks like Dinan is calculating with only an 11% drivetrain loss. Who knows if its the same for the 135 and 1M though. If it is then their at the wheels power is 336 HP.

One thing doesn't jive with me though. They are stating the stock max power of the 135 is 332 HP at the crank. BMW claims 300 at the crank right? So BMW is sandbagging then? If that's the case is it safe to assuming they are sandbaggind the 1M crank 335 HP too? Well they must be because we all know that its more powerful than a stock 135. If that's the case then what's it really making? 350 hp or 360 hp? It that's in fact true, then Dinan's published 378 crank hp is basically nothing.
On drive train loss, Dinan says this:

Quote:
The drive train loss has been a major point of contention among tuners and the numbers have fluctuated from 10% to over 17%. What most tuners do not seem to recognize is that drive train loss is not a constant factor; it is determined by the frictional losses throughout the engine and drive train that differs throughout the entire rev range. As the car goes faster (MPH increase on the speedometer) the gears, bearings and seals are moving at a higher speed and friction increases Dinan employs an in-house engine and chassis dyno, enabling us to log the drive train loss to an accuracy of +/- 1%. The dyno horsepower and Torque data are the closest to real world conditions you will find.
About the 332hp stock, two things. First, it's been pretty much consensus for a long time that BMW was publishing conservative numbers for the N54. Second, notice that Dinan tested with 93 octane. BMW would never publish numbers based on fuel that you can't get everywhere. Dinan says,

Quote:
All dyno measurements taken using 93-octane gas, lower octane will reduce power substantially and higher octane will increase power substantially.
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      11-10-2011, 05:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaddylo View Post
yes, they match the original factory warranty. Same terms and conditions including in service date.
The warranty is through DINAN, not BMW. You will not find "BMW" listed in any part of Dinan's warranty nor "Dinan," in Bmw's.

When the 135i was initially released most if not all customers with the Dinan tune that experienced the HPFP issue before made public by bmw.. had to fight for their vehicle to be fixed by BMW or Dinan. Dinan blammed Bmw for the bad pump and bmw blammed it on dinan's tune.

note: Not all bmw dealers are dinan dealers. therefore not all bmw dealers will honor dinan's warranty or sell their products. An individual franchise cannot provide a different level of warranty than the next... however if they sell a non oem part the warranty coverage will be particular to the manufacturer of the part.... in this case DINAN.

It is no different in audis case with stasis. They offer a 4yr 50k warranty that runs with the manufactures original warranty... this seems to make one think that AUDI warraties stasis' products which in reality, the stasis warranty is just based on the time/mile portion of audis warranty... stasis warranties the products not audi.

I'm only trying to clarify this as there has been many people mislead by dealers/dinan... either way the do make a decent product, usually under tuned, over-priced in some cases, and overall ... conservative. compared to other options they usually are the "safer," bet.
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      11-10-2011, 06:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you View Post
378 hp @ 5700 rpm and 415 lb-ft @ 4300 for the 1M

384 hp @ 5700 rpm and 421 lb-ft @ 4300 for the 135i




Even according to DINAN's website:

The stage II tune will make the tuned 135= tuned 1M (378/378 and 415/415)
My prediction is not too many 1M owners will even consider this tune....

I must say my 1m feels just as powerful (stock) than my 135i did tuned. The numbers must be inaccurate
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      11-10-2011, 07:36 PM   #34
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A few thoughts.

Yes, Dinan is expensive, and they make big profit margins on the tunes. They are, however, likely of the highest quality.

I have never bought a Dinan product, BTW, so these are just my thoughts:

I met the Dinan team when I used their Dyno for tuning my Porsche. They have an extremely professional organization, more than I expected. In Morgan Hill they design and build the motors that won the Grand Am season this year, won the Rolex 24 hours or Daytona, etc. They run a large, full-on motorsports engine development program out of there and win at the very top levels (beating the Porsche factory, etc). They have all the equipment you'd expect, engine dyno, hub dyno, flow benches, etc in house. I also met their tuning guru, and he talked with my tuning guru (who won Daytona the previous 2 years for Porsche).

You must understand that guys like this are not going to leave any power on the table because they "missed" it. If they make less power than someone else it's intentional. And I do expect they intentionally make less power than some of the other tuners, maybe 10-15 less hp? The obvious question is why, and the obvious answer is that they are taking less risk for two reasons: a)these guys hate blowing up motors as a matter of professional pride, and b) if they blow up Dinan pays. So they have incentive to be conservative, while another tuner has incentive to make every last HP so that he can show a dyno that makes a sale.

Now I personally want to keep this car a long time, and thus I respect taking the last few HP off but gaining more safety margin. Especially when if I really feel the need for that power I can buy a midpipe, etc and make that power without increasing risk.

Again I agree it's expensive, and I also think the lack of being to load/ unload is a drawback. If I was considering a tune these guys would be on my short list- very few people have the expertise to win the 24 hours of Daytona and it's not a bad thing to have that guy tuning your motor IMHO.
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      11-10-2011, 07:48 PM   #35
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So are those dinan numbers with overboost? Does overboost still work? If so how much more hp with dinan?
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      11-10-2011, 07:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo View Post
So we agree this is a fairly weak tune?

People have been running GIAC & ESS for a while now: half the cost, better numbers, no problems (that I've heard of).
I love my ESS tune on the 1M and have not had any problems of any kind! I only have to really watch it as I am constantly wanting to punch this little beast everywhere I go!

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      11-10-2011, 08:32 PM   #37
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I agree with DINAN being conservative. However, they actually think the whole solution through and how the tune will effect other aspects of the car. They spend some time on R&D and just dont throw out performance parts etc.
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      11-10-2011, 10:03 PM   #38
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ESS FTW!
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      11-10-2011, 10:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninWheels View Post
I must say my 1m feels just as powerful (stock) than my 135i did tuned. The numbers must be inaccurate
What tune did you have?? I had Cobb AP 93 octane with only BMW perf exhaust on my 135i, and "tuned" it was much stronger than my 1M stock.
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      11-11-2011, 12:26 AM   #40
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I also think that a warranty and quality that Dinan puts into their tunes is worth it, if you want a tune. I find that the car is powerful enough as it is. It actually has its work cut out just getting the power down. I would be more interested in more linear power delivery if anything. One other point of concern is 400 foot lbs of torque.. Very few gearboxes are rated at that range. Even the M3 gearbox only has to deal with ~300 lb ft. I believe the gearbox is rated close to the max 370 already. Anyone know what the gearbox is rated at? Will Dinan warranty the gearbox, clutch?

Just a thought.
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      11-11-2011, 12:40 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninWheels View Post
I must say my 1m feels just as powerful (stock) than my 135i did tuned. The numbers must be inaccurate
I'm gonna agree...although the numbers may not match up, I've had a couple of tuned 135 owners (also close friends), who have said that the stock 1M feels just as powerful.
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      11-11-2011, 12:46 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglare View Post
I love my ESS tune on the 1M and have not had any problems of any kind! I only have to really watch it as I am constantly wanting to punch this little beast everywhere I go!

+1

You were right.....I'm loving it!
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      11-28-2011, 01:03 AM   #43
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Hopefully we get some more info on this as time goes on, I am sure a lot of us are itching for a reliable tune
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      12-02-2011, 02:01 AM   #44
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Dinan Stage 2 installed

Dinan came out with the mod about two weeks ago and I put it on the 2nd day it was available. Dinan skipped the Stage 1 since they said BMW had already provided that with the car stock. I had the Dinan Stage 2 on my 2008 335I and exhaust and loved it. The new ECU mod for the 1M has almost the same performance specs, 380 hp and 415 torque. I just left Willow Springs Race Way after doing 5 thirty minute sessions. I was on the track two months earlier and I can tell you the difference since doing the Stage 2 is amazing. There is no maximum seconds of over boost, it comes on earlier and last to the top of the rev curve. A very light increase in pressure on the pedal when in a high speed curve still provides more power and acceleration on a smooth exit like in turn 2 and 8. The warranty match also seals the deal for me. The power comparison to stock is not even close and the torque makes all the difference in the world. Dinan said that the stock exhaust is much more free flow than the exhaust on the stock 335 or 135 and that the modified exhaust is not as much a contributing factor. However they are working on an exhaust right now and possibly a coil over program. In regards the question about the M button, it has the same effect with or without the tune. I agree with Pete Vb about Dinan doesnt want to take risks and blow engines. They want to make the most power that maintains reliability.

Last edited by tunedone; 12-02-2011 at 02:10 AM.
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