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      04-13-2012, 12:52 PM   #1
M///1rider
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Flash tune battle: ESS vs Evolve tuning

Hey guys when i switched over to the 1m platform i expected tuning to be as easy as it was on the previous n54 135i's.

It has been difficult to find a tune that can keep up with a JB4 or Procede.

I currently have been hopping around and thought that i have decided to do something very nice for the community!!!!!

I have a JB4 from my previous Car and picked up the ESS tune around December.

I ran their stage 1 and let me tell you it was good. Torque raised a lot but the 1M is tuned already from stock over a regular n54. So hp was not that great.

I spoke with AJ over at ESS and he is a great guy. I told him the stage 1 still did not have that extra bump at the top to let it be great but it still was magnificent in second and third gear.

He shot me over a Beta file that had a little more boost and i tried it out. It had a lot more torque and even more hp.

But still did not feel faster than a JB4 n54. This is only there Beta not stage 2 so im waiting to see what they come up with and im keeping their handheld.

After a lot of debate with myself waiting around i could not wait any longer and i bit on the Evolve R. Purchased it through Sonic MS and after a little mix up from USPS i got the package.

Downloaded my regular file which took 1 hour. Then sent it in!!

After anxiously waiting one day i received the Evolve R tune custom to my 1m.

Every spec and even octane rating.

My car is full bolt ons

- AR dps 3" catless
- Berk resonated Mids
- Eisenmann rear race muffler
- Injen dual ram air intake ( thinking about switching need more IAT testing)
- CP-E 3" chargepipe
- HKS bov
- HPF 7" Fmic

- always on 93 octane!!!

- speed delimiter yes!
- catless. Yess!!!
- Rev delimiter. No because i figured we dont even banged our rpms over 6k so there no point.


After receiving their advertise Stage 3 Decatted map. I was so excited. Ive only had it for a couple of days but instantly theres was more hp then ESS

Rough testing i got around 10sec
60-130 times

Torque was just as good as ESS if not better and the RPM band is strong.

Yet to put it to work against other cars but the Evolve -R is running great!!!.

I will do dyno's shortly comparing these tunes but power is good

Also have an aquamist meth kit to install when i have the time.

But let me tell you Evolve is a great company and the Evolve R is a great product. Cant wait to get it on the dyno.

Im hoping for over 410 whp at least with methanol spraying!!!!

Wish me luck
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      04-13-2012, 12:53 PM   #2
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BTW!! Salman over at Evolve is the mann!
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      04-13-2012, 01:25 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M///1rider View Post
Hey guys when i switched over to the 1m platform i expected tuning to be as easy as it was on the previous n54 135i's.

It has been difficult to find a tune that can keep up with a JB4 or Procede.

I currently have been hopping around and thought that i have decided to do something very nice for the community!!!!!

I have a JB4 from my previous Car and picked up the ESS tune around December.

I ran their stage 1 and let me tell you it was good. Torque raised a lot but the 1M is tuned already from stock over a regular n54. So hp was not that great.

I spoke with AJ over at ESS and he is a great guy. I told him the stage 1 still did not have that extra bump at the top to let it be great but it still was magnificent in second and third gear.

He shot me over a Beta file that had a little more boost and i tried it out. It had a lot more torque and even more hp.

But still did not feel faster than a JB4 n54. This is only there Beta not stage 2 so im waiting to see what they come up with and im keeping their handheld.

After a lot of debate with myself waiting around i could not wait any longer and i bit on the Evolve R. Purchased it through Sonic MS and after a little mix up from USPS i got the package.

Downloaded my regular file which took 1 hour. Then sent it in!!

After anxiously waiting one day i received the Evolve R tune custom to my 1m.

Every spec and even octane rating.

My car is full bolt ons

- AR dps 3" catless
- Berk resonated Mids
- Eisenmann rear race muffler
- Injen dual ram air intake ( thinking about switching need more IAT testing)
- CP-E 3" chargepipe
- HKS bov
- HPF 7" Fmic

- always on 93 octane!!!

- speed delimiter yes!
- catless. Yess!!!
- Rev delimiter. No because i figured we dont even banged our rpms over 6k so there no point.


After receiving their advertise Stage 3 Decatted map. I was so excited. Ive only had it for a couple of days but instantly theres was more hp then ESS

Rough testing i got around 10sec
60-130 times

Torque was just as good as ESS if not better and the RPM band is strong.

Yet to put it to work against other cars but the Evolve -R is running great!!!.

I will do dyno's shortly comparing these tunes but power is good

Also have an aquamist meth kit to install when i have the time.

But let me tell you Evolve is a great company and the Evolve R is a great product. Cant wait to get it on the dyno.

Im hoping for over 410 whp at least with methanol spraying!!!!

Wish me luck
Great, thanks for posting all the details, interesting read. I have no doubt that the dyno will show you over 420 hp and insane levels of torque. Then the question comes: how do you put the power and torque on the tarmac? What tires and what suspension you have?
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      04-13-2012, 01:35 PM   #4
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Currently i am running the stock Michelin pilot sports.

I have Bilstein PSS 10s for my coilovers already.

Im thinking about switching to Michelin Pilot Super Sports in the rear but have not done it yet so stay tuned!
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      04-13-2012, 01:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M///1rider View Post
Currently i am running the stock Michelin pilot sports.

I have Bilstein PSS 10s for my coilovers already.

Im thinking about switching to Michelin Pilot Super Sports in the rear but have not done it yet so stay tuned!
PSS will help you, for this car you can go as wide as possible at the rear too.
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      04-13-2012, 01:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo
Quote:
Originally Posted by M///1rider View Post
Currently i am running the stock Michelin pilot sports.

I have Bilstein PSS 10s for my coilovers already.

Im thinking about switching to Michelin Pilot Super Sports in the rear but have not done it yet so stay tuned!
PSS will help you, for this car you can go as wide as possible at the rear too.
Yes i was looking to bump up at least to 275's in the rear but can anyone qualify whats the widest width for stock camber setting and everything just lowered ride height adjustment is all i have.
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      04-13-2012, 01:50 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by M///1rider View Post
Yes i was looking to bump up at least to 275's in the rear but can anyone qualify whats the widest width for stock camber setting and everything just lowered ride height adjustment is all i have.
This is what a lot of people are searching for nowadays, look for the tire/wheel section, there you will see a quite recent PSS thread. I think it was the member Fundahl who would try 275 or 285 rears first.

Edit: Just checked it myself, Fundahl is going 295/30 at the rears
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      04-13-2012, 01:56 PM   #8
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Sorry, but I'm not sure we'll learn very much from your dyno test. If your car blows up we'll learn a lot, however, so certainly thanks for being a guinea pig...

Everyone knows how to make more power from tuning- that's no secret. Unfortunately making more power reliably is very difficult, and it's not like one tuner has the "secret sauce" that lets them be much better than another. If Evolve is making more top end power they are making more heat and pressure and pushing the turbos further off map; they will fail sooner. Unfortunately until they fail we don't know if that's going the be soon enough to be concerned about.

Making power is easy as you've seen now that you're ~30% above stock. Making power reliably is really hard- I like how the Viper team explains what they did for the viper to allow them to do a more aggressive re-map on the 2013 Viper:

"We went to a sodium filled exhaust valve, that allowed us to be more aggressive in our calibration with spark and fuel. We went to a forged piston, same reason, it was able to withstand higher temperatures and pressures so we could again lean out the mixture, be a little more aggressive with the spark and not compromise durability..."

So they changed valve materials and pistons to get ~3% more power through engine re-mapping, while you've changed nothing internal to get 30%. Something to consider... If you want to chase top end power numbers you should really get bigger turbos- running those parts so far out of their designed range is not going to do wonders for your car's long term health. JMHO...

The description of the engine mods to the Viper are here, interesting stuff:
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      04-13-2012, 02:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
If Evolve is making more top end power they are making more heat and pressure and pushing the turbos further off map; they will fail sooner. Unfortunately until they fail we don't know if that's going the be soon enough to be concerned about.
My experience of Evolve is that they are actually pretty conservative in terms of boost, prefering to work with timing (and I guess other stuff - I'm sure Evolve will correct me if I've got it wrong ) to maximise torque, and not pushing the curve to get as puch power out as possible - and believe me, I've asked them to, but they refused. I ran my 135i for over 60k miles with an Evolve remap - no issues.

And don't worry - he's not a guinea pig - I've been running the Evolve tune on my 1M for over 10k miles....
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      04-13-2012, 02:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clived View Post
My experience of Evolve is that they are actually pretty conservative in terms of boost, prefering to work with timing (and I guess other stuff - I'm sure Evolve will correct me if I've got it wrong ) to maximise torque, and not pushing the curve to get as puch power out as possible - and believe me, I've asked them to, but they refused. I ran my 135i for over 60k miles with an Evolve remap - no issues.

And don't worry - he's not a guinea pig - I've been running the Evolve tune on my 1M for over 10k miles....
He's running a custom map, so different than the one you put 10k miles on (and 10k miles is nothing to write home about).

Fundamentally there are only three main knobs any tuner can turn in the quest for more power- ignition advance, fuel and boost, and all have real consequences.

Where you can't rely on experience you need to fall back on reputation, and I do hope Evolve's holds up in this case. But what you essentially have here is not one tuner able to make more power, but rather one tuner being comfortable pushing the line further than another... That alone shouldn't impress anyone.
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      04-13-2012, 03:28 PM   #11
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Well, I also have FMIC, decated downpipes and race cat-back, so the maps are similar.

What I don't get however is why you seem to be calling out Evolve on this. Thousands of cars remapped, doubltess millions of miles run on their maps - and do we see reports of failures on their cars? Do we hear of codes been thrown and limp modes being entered - signs I'd suggest of tuners who are potentially less meticulous in their methods? There are reports of US tuners claiming more WHP than Evolve, so why the downer on them particularly? If your point is that any tuning can accelerate component wear and bring forward potential failures, no-one with any credibility could disagree. If your point is that Evolve's methods are somehow intrinsically more dangerous than all other tuners, I think you're very much lacking in empirical or anecodtal evidence.
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      04-13-2012, 03:41 PM   #12
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If you are going to dyno it, please have a baseline as well. Many seem to forget this important part.
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      04-13-2012, 03:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB
Quote:
Originally Posted by clived View Post
My experience of Evolve is that they are actually pretty conservative in terms of boost, prefering to work with timing (and I guess other stuff - I'm sure Evolve will correct me if I've got it wrong ) to maximise torque, and not pushing the curve to get as puch power out as possible - and believe me, I've asked them to, but they refused. I ran my 135i for over 60k miles with an Evolve remap - no issues.

And don't worry - he's not a guinea pig - I've been running the Evolve tune on my 1M for over 10k miles....
He's running a custom map, so different than the one you put 10k miles on (and 10k miles is nothing to write home about).

Fundamentally there are only three main knobs any tuner can turn in the quest for more power- ignition advance, fuel and boost, and all have real consequences.

Where you can't rely on experience you need to fall back on reputation, and I do hope Evolve's holds up in this case. But what you essentially have here is not one tuner able to make more power, but rather one tuner being comfortable pushing the line further than another... That alone shouldn't impress anyone.
I understand your argument but if you researched anything about Evolve they make custom maps to modifications, that doesnt mean i got a custom map to push the car harder. Ive been in a 135i that had 50k miles on it with a jb4 and meth and the worst problem i got was one blown fuel pump and they push the turbos pretty hard compared to these flash tuners

Thats what im mainly getting at is were all looking for a tuner that can beat jb4 like cobb is showing and i bet the Evolve tune would be right there.

If you didnt know most of the components on the n54 are forged( i think except for the piston which are cast) not positive but as you can see the motor holds up pretty well with stock parts. Shivs pushing 650 whp .

Clearly the turbos can only take so much but if you looked into the n54 many people run 18psi tapering to about 16psi at 6k rpms and this is tuned just right. Evolve has done a great thing with there tune being right there, and i cant wait to get methanol hooked up on this thing.

Was also thinking about RBs but im pretty sure my motor will be fine.

Ive been tuned since day one with my car whether it was the JB4, ESS, or Evolve. I also have 10k miles and my cars doing perfectly fine.

It really annoys me how people are more negative then positive on this website.

Open up your own thread about motors blowing up!!! Maybe you will get some interest. Im pretty sure not many n54s have and they have been pushed since 07 with alot of boost on the stock turbos.

My jb3 was actually boosting 21 psi on meth on my old 135i sooo with that said
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      04-13-2012, 04:00 PM   #14
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The n54 is capable of 420-430 whp daily driving!!! Ive seen many people do this for years im talking about these flashes making jb4/ procede power please only positive talk here
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      04-13-2012, 04:14 PM   #15
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Take it to the dragstrip as well.
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      04-13-2012, 04:19 PM   #16
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Thanks for sharing, can't wait to see the Dyno numbers!
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      04-13-2012, 05:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
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If your point is that Evolve's methods are somehow intrinsically more dangerous than all other tuners, I think you're very much lacking in empirical or anecodtal evidence.
I didn't say that at all. My point is that the OP's philosophy (more top end is better) is a double edged sword, and looking at dynos provides only half the equation (the less important half for me- I'd rather leave a few hp on the table than significantly reduce engine life).

Quote:
Originally Posted by M///1rider View Post
I understand your argument but if you researched anything about Evolve they make custom maps to modifications, that doesnt mean i got a custom map to push the car harder.
I think you're missing the point right here. You explain above that your new tune is making more top end power, but you're assuming that doesn't mean you're "pushing the car harder". Assuming both tuners know their jobs, and I assume they do, it absolutely means you're pushing the car harder. The turbo is already past the design flow limit, you're flowing more air, meaning higher turbo RPMs, more heat, etc. This is the point I think you're missing- the new map is stressing the car more. Ask evolve, and if they are halfway decent they will agree, they'll just tell you it's by an acceptable amount for your application. Hopefully they understand your application well...

I've been tuning my cars, turbo and not, for more than 15 years. The tuner I use now has designed and built the motors that took the 24 hours of Daytona overall win. Twice. I've blown head gaskets, stuck an exhaust valve during a top speed open road race at the Silver State Classic (by doing exactly what you're doing re the turbo map), etc- I'd wager I'm pretty up to speed with what you can get away with in regards to tuning and what you can't.

I'm fully aware of what people are doing with tapering the boost, etc, to protect the turbos on these motors. What you seem unaware of is that by pushing the car in the way you are you will pay a price in longevity. This is at least the third thread by my count where you've asked different tuners for more top end power. You don't seem to understand the tradeoff in longevity you're asking for in the process.

If you're aware of and fine with the shorter motor life and limitations in usage that come with it then by all means, carry on. Just for your own sake and others reading this, understand that just because tuner XXX makes you more hp doesn't mean he's better.

As I said, I'd personally suggest you do 460 rwhp the right way, with bigger turbos- I think the motor would be relatively un-stressed that way vs 420 whp on overstressed stock turbos.
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      04-14-2012, 03:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
I didn't say that at all. My point is that the OP's philosophy (more top end is better) is a double edged sword, and looking at dynos provides only half the equation (the less important half for me- I'd rather leave a few hp on the table than significantly reduce engine life).

As I said, I'd personally suggest you do 460 rwhp the right way, with bigger turbos- I think the motor would be relatively un-stressed that way vs 420 whp on overstressed stock turbos.
Fair enough Pete :-) My car is running 440bhp (that's UK bhp, as you'll know, UK and US dynos rarely seem to give comparable results) at the flywheel. I'd agree that if the OP is trying to get 460rwhp that's, erm, ambitious, from stock turbos. The jump you seem to have made is in suggesting that because that's what the OP wants, and because he's selected an Evolve tune, that Evolve would blindy try to meet his request. I know, both from my personal experience on my car, and in being at Evolve enough to hear conversations with other cars, that safety of the tune is genuinely their number one concern.

I've been tuning turbo charged cars nearly as long as you (only started in 2001), having taken a 2001 1.8T Audi TT to 500bhp with a Mitsubishi hybrid twin scroll turbo and water injection (along with one or two other components ;-) ), my B5 RS4 to 450, my 535D to 306bhp (none of those with Evolve) and of course my Evolve experience with 135i, 1M - plus having been lucky enough to meet the owners and experience rides in various other Evolve tuned cars.

Along the way, particularly with the TT, I've made mistakes, killed turbos, cracked blocks, wasted money on components and services, had good advice and bad advice. I like to think I've built up the knowledge and experience now to know when a tuner cares about the car and me as a customer, rather than seeing me as a cash-cow. Evolve absolutely care, so I was just a bit put out to see you tar Evolve with the same brush you were tarring the OP with...
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