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      04-13-2012, 08:40 AM   #67
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So much for the "Engine of the year" right?
How can any one screw up a design this bad!
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      04-13-2012, 09:14 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theinfamousdrew View Post
Sorry for being a n54 noob....

What are the symptoms of carbon build up?
I searched but cant find an answer
Reduced power, higher emissions, worse mileage. When it gets pretty bad, then the engine starts running rough. Rough idle, even shuddering sometimes.
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      04-13-2012, 09:18 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by 1speedbike View Post
Reduced power, higher emissions, worse mileage. When it gets pretty bad, then the engine starts running rough. Rough idle, even shuddering sometimes.
Thanks...

I only have a month left on the warranty and I now need to figure out a way to get the dealership to do this.
Any suggestions? lol
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      04-13-2012, 09:25 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theinfamousdrew View Post
Thanks...

I only have a month left on the warranty and I now need to figure out a way to get the dealership to do this.
Any suggestions? lol
They probably won't do it unless your car is being rough, or it throws some sort of fault code. You could go and complain that you've had reduced power recently, you feel it being rough, your mileage has gotten worse since last year, and you think there's a carbon buildup problem, but there's no guarantee that'll work. You usually need concrete evidence that you can reproduce in front of a tech, and even then sometimes they'll try and blame the problem on something else. But either way, this isn't a standard maintenance procedure. It might be warranty related because it can kill the life of your engine, but there's no guarantee they'll even do it for free...
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      04-13-2012, 09:52 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by shah269 View Post
So much for the "Engine of the year" right?
How can any one screw up a design this bad!
It's not just a problem with the N54/N55 though. This problem is inherent to all direct injection engines.
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      04-13-2012, 09:59 AM   #72
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Still this is a serious issue. As in no joke issue a legal professional would love to get their hands on and take BMW US to court for a class action law suit.

Inherent in the design or not the fact that the cars performance is such that the emissions increase with decrease in performance due to normal function screams class action law suit!

If I was BMW USA I would be wondering what my liabilities and responsibilities are with respect to this issue.

Think about it, if enough carbon builds up that the car no longer functions and fails emissions testing....this could be very very bad.
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      04-13-2012, 10:02 AM   #73
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Im really afraid to open mine up at 75K and see the damage
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      04-13-2012, 10:58 AM   #74
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Youre telling me! It takes some getting used to. I checked my 302 last summer after 12 years and the engine has virtually no carbon. And then I have to worry about my 135 thats a quarter of the age...sigh...I guess thats what I get for buying an expensive car

Quote:
Originally Posted by shah269 View Post
Still this is a serious issue. As in no joke issue a legal professional would love to get their hands on and take BMW US to court for a class action law suit.

Inherent in the design or not the fact that the cars performance is such that the emissions increase with decrease in performance due to normal function screams class action law suit!

If I was BMW USA I would be wondering what my liabilities and responsibilities are with respect to this issue.

Think about it, if enough carbon builds up that the car no longer functions and fails emissions testing....this could be very very bad.
Yeah...the Audi guys have been trying to do this for the longest time. It hasnt worked despite the fact that RS4s have been popping CELs and losing a quarter of their power within 30K miles due to carbon.
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      04-13-2012, 11:01 AM   #75
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It's not just a problem with the N54/N55 though. This problem is inherent to all direct injection engines.
Yup.
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      04-13-2012, 02:57 PM   #76
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Well I'm back from my intake valve cleaning and I must say I am rather impressed with the noticeable difference in how the car behaves now. Cylinders 3, 5, and 6 were the absolute worst with massive gunks at 57k miles. I wasn't showing any symptoms before so my idle is still the same, however the throttle response has vastly improved and the top end feel is vastly improved as well. I honestly need to take it back to the 1/4 mile again and see if it picked up any mph. Even if it doesn't pick up any mph (although it sure feels like it), the improved drivability is well worth the hassle and I think anyone with decent mileage will benefit from this procedure. Here's hoping I trap 118-119mph on pump gas!
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      04-13-2012, 03:01 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by RnmEvo9 View Post
Well I'm back from my intake valve cleaning and I must say I am rather impressed with the noticeable difference in how the car behaves now. Cylinders 3, 5, and 6 were the absolute worst with massive gunks at 57k miles. I wasn't showing any symptoms before so my idle is still the same, however the throttle response has vastly improved and the top end feel is vastly improved as well. I honestly need to take it back to the 1/4 mile again and see if it picked up any mph. Even if it doesn't pick up any mph (although it sure feels like it), the improved drivability is well worth the hassle and I think anyone with decent mileage will benefit from this procedure. Here's hoping I trap 118-119mph on pump gas!
That's good news -- I'll probably get this done around next year when I hit the 35-40k mark. Do you know the method the valves were cleaned by? Walnut/Media blaster?
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      04-13-2012, 03:15 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by icabod7 View Post
That's good news -- I'll probably get this done around next year when I hit the 35-40k mark. Do you know the method the valves were cleaned by? Walnut/Media blaster?
I was there watching the whole time. They hand scrubbed it with chemtool b12 and a gun cleaning kit.

Edit: This wasn't done at the dealership, but rather a couple of local BMW owners who have the knowledge of doing this procedure.

Last edited by RnmEvo9; 04-13-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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      04-13-2012, 04:53 PM   #79
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I wonder how effective this so called spray is?
Not sure I got rid of the car before I had to do it. Sounded promising. It was like preventative maintenance. But when they cleaned out the engine and replaced the injectors it was running good for a couple thousand miles.

Really loved the car I just cant spend the whole day at the dealership 2 saturdays a month.

And for the price there is nothing as cool and classy..
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      04-13-2012, 04:56 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by shah269 View Post
Still this is a serious issue. As in no joke issue a legal professional would love to get their hands on and take BMW US to court for a class action law suit.

Inherent in the design or not the fact that the cars performance is such that the emissions increase with decrease in performance due to normal function screams class action law suit!

If I was BMW USA I would be wondering what my liabilities and responsibilities are with respect to this issue.

Think about it, if enough carbon builds up that the car no longer functions and fails emissions testing....this could be very very bad.
I was in constant contact with BMW USA they do not care..
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      04-14-2012, 08:58 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublevanosrc View Post
I wonder how effective this so called spray is?
I have used the Mopar product, which is delivered via vacuum intake, so it does over the valves as it goes in through the air intake.
In a DI engine if you spray the product into the air intake it will cover the intake valves.
If the deposit is on the exhaust valves, then I think the only way is to actually physically scrape it.

It would be interesting to know how a car is driven daily to get a better sense of what kind of running condition may contribute to excessive build up at lower mileage. 30K even 60K seems too low to have to remove by hand.

Are those who have excessive build up driving their cars short distances very often? IOW, it may be that cars that get driven 10 or under miles daily to an from work, are more prone to the build it.
Cars that rarely get driven enough miles, so as to get the combustion chamber to optimal temp, may be more prone to build up.

Also, that is another reason why not to wait for our engines to warm up.
Driving right away after start up gets the engine to optimal temp quicker, and gets to leaner air/fuel burn faster. Running at a richer a/f mixture results in a less efficient combustion burn, that could lead to greater change of carbon build up.
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      04-14-2012, 09:16 PM   #82
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I think the only way you'll know is when you take off your intake manifold and inspect the valves. My bought my CPO 08 135i exactly a year ago with 47k miles on the dot. Now, with that kind of mileage I would have to assume that it must've been driven on the highway quite often. I added about 10k miles in the year I've had it and most of it was driven on the highway to and from school (80 miles roundtrip). The amount of carbon build up on cylinders 3, 5 and 6 was absolutely ridiculous. The car drives totally different now and I still need to adjust my throttle foot. I can't stress enough how everybody should have their intake valves cleaned if you have more than 20-30k miles.
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      04-14-2012, 09:43 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
It's not just a problem with the N54/N55 though. This problem is inherent to all direct injection engines.
True.
Also, it's not just DI engines that do this.
ALL engines get carbon build up over time. It's just, it seems, DI may contribute to carbon build up accumulating quicker, because the fuel is not going past the intake valves as it would with a carb or port fuel injection.

In non DI engines there is an added benefit of the raw fuel coming through the valve ports and around the valves helping clean them.
DI injects the fuel directly into the combustion chamber and only air comes through the intake ports and valves.

Carbon build up is a direct result of burning gasoline. Over time carbon builds up. Generally, most carbon build up occurs early in the engines life, then it levels off, or should, as some of the deposits flake off.
DI may not be allowing that, and thus the normal build up that happens actually gets thicker than it should.

As I've stated before, how ones drives does contribute to carbon build up. Short drives create a greater build up as the engine doesn't get up to optimal temperature for optimal fuel burn. Cold start is a "rich" air/fuel mixture that results in greater carbon build up. If one drives short distances often, like commuting every day, greater build up can result.

I do think that additional fuel additives, like Techron, do work as they help soften carbon deposits so they can be burned off or flake off, and they help from build up in the first place.
But, this works only if you use it regularly. If you already have excessive carbon build up, then fuel/combustion chamber cleaners can only do so much and they can't penetrate heavier layers.
For that Seafoam can help as well as Mopars fuel/combustion chamber cleaner, used through a vacuum line.
Going through the intake these products will go around valves and through the ports to help soak the areas. Once you've put the product in you shut the engine off and let the product soak.
After some minutes you fire up the engine and the exhaust will look quite nasty, and the internals will be cleaner. You can repeat the process to get greater cleaning.
Here's a link to the basics.
http://www.seafoamsales.com/how-to-u...treatment.html

If that doesn't work, then a manual cleaning will be needed.

I've used the Mopar product and it worked great in my 1990 Mits/Plymouth Laser turbo. It ran smoother and power came back.
If I recall, I may have used the whole can as I did this two or three times.
I did it right before a spark plug change, as some people reported spark plug issues after the cleaning.
Also, I did an oil change very soon after as some ring blow-by may have allowed the product to get into the oil.

BTW, in turbo engines I think that by 30K miles one should consider a plug change. By 50K I think it's necessary.
In my older Laser Turbo, I did a spark plug change every 15K miles, as those were old copper plugs and the Mits/Plymouth turbo had a weak ignition system. Our BMW's have a more stout ignition system and use better plug tech, so that's why I'm saying 30K to check them, and 50K to change them.
Proper firing plugs will ensure a proper air/fuel mix burn.
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      04-14-2012, 09:55 PM   #84
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There are some owners on here that have over 80K and they haven't reported having carbon build up problems.
It's obviously happening, but I'm just concerned that some people will jump to conclusions and claim that all 135i's have "excessive" build up, when it may just be some do and most don't, and how one drives makes a difference.

One other factor to build up is oil changes. BMW has gone to some long intervals. That may be a contributing factor.
It would be interesting to see if those who change their oil half as soon as BMW calls for it, and they drive a good distance on daily driving, if they have lower numbers of problems with build up.
But, we may never get that data.

The other thing is, this seems to be related to DI engines, and nearly every engine is going with this, with some improvements for sure.
I wonder if the N55 engines have less of an issue due to their new design, and using valvetronic?
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      04-14-2012, 11:50 PM   #85
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And mine was evident at 20k...
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      04-15-2012, 12:52 PM   #86
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Use good fuels and fuel system cleaners maybe once an month to every few months.

This won't stop the problem, but it will help minimize it.

I know there's lots of people on some of these threads saying this won't make a difference, but that just shows their knowledge of engines. Even though fuel is not squirted directly onto the valves. A certain amount of exhaust gas and injected fresh gasses do go in and out of the intake manifold. This is known as scavenging in an engine. This and oil from the crank case that are put into the intake for emissions purposes are what the buildup is from. And this is why oil catch cans were invented.

There are other ways to bypass this oil getting into the intake, but they are a lot more on the illegal side of things. And lets not forget, some oil does bypass the turbos, so it is unavoidable to a certain extent.
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      04-15-2012, 07:40 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shah269 View Post

Think about it, if enough carbon builds up that the car no longer functions and fails emissions testing....this could be very very bad.
If this is the case, there may be a way to get something like this covered under the 8 year 80000 mile emission warranty??

I think you might be able to interpret the warrranty to cover this, but it could be a stretch.
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      04-18-2012, 08:57 AM   #88
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If this is the case, there may be a way to get something like this covered under the 8 year 80000 mile emission warranty??

I think you might be able to interpret the warranty to cover this, but it could be a stretch.
Yes! NO joke YES!
Your car thanks to USDOT has to have an 80kmile emissions warranty.
So if at 55k miles your cat takes a dump BMW will have to give you a new one for the car. Odds are they will try and charge you for it but....it is warranty.

Now as for what qualifies as emission warranty? This was a very big issue at the NYC auto show according to my good friend who works for Volvo.

Many of the DI engine folks are running around trying to figure out WTF to do. Eventually the carbon will get so bad that the exhaust valve may leak. When it does that it will start passing some very hot gasses and potentially raw fuel into the down pipes which may damage the cat.

And guess who is stuck with the federal requirement to make sure that cat works till 80k miles?

This stinks of a class action law suit. Any lawyer worth his or her salt should be looking at this and licking their lips. Known issue, kept quiet and it will cause increased emissions over the long run of the car?

Now even if there is a law suit you won't get rich and you won't get a new car. What you may get is a recall notice where the car is brought in at a given point and the vales are cleaned.......once. Oh and while you are there they will find at least $500 worth of things wrong with your car that you should fix today!

So who wins? The lawyer wins since they collect a fee from BMW on your behalf. BMW won because well you paid for the car. Your local dealer wins because you had to come over to have said work done on the car and they will talk to you about all the parts wrong with your car or sell you to a new one.
So who loses? I'll give you a hint, he or she is sitting down right now reading this and thinking....SHIT!

The question that needs to be asked is simple, how can the Di diesel's not have this problem? They are running a much more dirty mixture and their overall temperature gradient is significantly lower than ours. So why is it that they are not having the same issues?
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