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      05-21-2012, 10:16 AM   #23
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Yandy, I hate to be a pessimist but they won't cover you on the track. believe me I poked my insurance company regarding this. they told me they would cover if and only if you were in a driving school teaching accident avoidance. the kind parents put their teenage kids in. time to make friends with a body shop or a friend that knows body work.
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      05-21-2012, 10:17 AM   #24
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are those NT-01s?

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      05-21-2012, 10:18 AM   #25
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are those NT-01s?
yup
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      05-21-2012, 10:56 AM   #26
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I only want to mention this as a learning point for others, not trying to beat you up over your mistakes ^_^ I wasn't sure if you were braking or not in the video - could see the speedometer dropping rapidly, but I was unsure since you were also dipping into the dirt and getting sideways. Your oversteer in that situation was not so incredible that your rear tire traction was non-existant - it was only just barely over the threshold. But braking and shifting the weight to the front of the vehicle is working completely against you when you're already in oversteer lacking good rear tire traction. I'm not sure at what point you began braking, but letting off the throttle and just keeping your feet off the pedals and using your hands to steer out of it would have been the best thing to do. You'd be amazed what just letting off the throttle and a little bit of steering input will do to help regain control in a seemingly out of control situation. It's instinctive to want to apply brake pressure so you can slow down, but all you're doing is making the situation worse and more difficult to recover from.

I sent you a PM with details of a driving course that's not your typical run-of-the-mill driving school.
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      05-21-2012, 11:06 AM   #27
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Quote:
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You were binding the wheel on the exit while you added power. That is why you spun. Open your hands when you add power you had tons of track out to drive the car to. And you totally made no attempt to save it! My guess is that your eyes went right to the tire wall, when they should have been looking down the track. Look at where you want to go, not at what you're trying to avoid, and you will go there. Why are you on r-comps? You're doing yourself and your car a disservice by driving with those tires. You need to get street tires and get comfortable with the car being loose before you use r-compounds. Anyways a better driver could put up better times on street tires than someone on r-compounds.

Sorry that you crashed, but it happens man, I've been there myself. We all spin, sometimes you don't get lucky and you hit something. I bet you learned more in those 5 seconds than you did in 15 days of DE days!
I'm on R comps because I felt like trying them. Put a whole season on my street tires and wanted something different. It's not the first time, and it wont be the last. Did I make a mistake? Yes1 could I have prevented it? Absolutely. Can a better driver put better times? of course they can.

It's not about lap times, the only reason I time them, get telemetry is to measure consistency and learn. I was also running faster than people with slicks on more powerful cars. That doesn't mean anything in it's own, I've been good up to that point at not having to have great car "control" because it's usually smooth and fairly fast. But I reached a limit of confort and for that split second my mind wondered, car unsettled and I wasn't able to recover.

Hence, I need to make sure I can react to those situations at first. I'm no expert and by no means pretend to be, which is why I put this on here so others can learn from the dumb sh*t I do. And also maybe next time I have something to reference and say, damn I got it right this time.

Thanks for your input, and yes, things happen and now it's time to fix it.

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I only want to mention this as a learning point for others, not trying to beat you up over your mistakes ^_^ I wasn't sure if you were braking or not in the video - could see the speedometer dropping rapidly, but I was unsure since you were also dipping into the dirt and getting sideways. Your oversteer in that situation was not so incredible that your rear tire traction was non-existant - it was only just barely over the threshold. But braking and shifting the weight to the front of the vehicle is working completely against you when you're already in oversteer lacking good rear tire traction. I'm not sure at what point you began braking, but letting off the throttle and just keeping your feet off the pedals and using your hands to steer out of it would have been the best thing to do. You'd be amazed what just letting off the throttle and a little bit of steering input will do to help regain control in a seemingly out of control situation. It's instinctive to want to apply brake pressure so you can slow down, but all you're doing is making the situation worse and more difficult to recover from.

I sent you a PM with details of a driving course that's not your typical run-of-the-mill driving school.
I didn't put this on here to get beat up, but I also didn't put it up for anyone to sugar coat it. It's meant to be seen and criticized, analyzed and used so that others can see what "not" to do I guess. So I value any and all input, specially when it's well intended.

Thanks for that
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      05-21-2012, 11:12 AM   #28
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yup
please take this as only constructive criticism:

have you considered that your car may not be doing you any favors with its extra power, hard suspension and track tires? based on the video, it looks like you need more seat time to develop your instincts and reactions. in this case it all happened in slow motion anyway, but i'd really urge you to put those tires in storage for a while in favor of some street tires, and maybe turn off your software while you're on the track too.

also, where was your instructor?

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      05-21-2012, 11:17 AM   #29
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Pixelblue, I'm only commenting on this video because other people may watch it and find it helpful to see what could have been done differently since nothing has been said about it yet, and Yandy has geared this towards a learning point thread. I'm sure you already know several different ways you would have handled that situation and watched the video a thousand times, and I've only watched it maybe ten. Way entirely too much correction when you oversteer to the left, nowhere near enough when you oversteer to the right from your over-compensation - probably because you felt like you used too much the first time and were hesitant to keep turning the wheel even more the second time. Your hands got bound up a bit and you could have crossed them to get even more steering. Probably would have been best to just try to keep it on the edge of traction and dip your tires in that dirt patch where you spun out into a little bit rather than compensating too much. You can see how the grass is worn out in that spot and it's nothing but dirt because people before you have taken that turn too fast and needed to dip into the dirt a little bit to avoid spinning out completely (36 seconds into the video).

There are a couple of different ways this could have been tackled, but all in all good thing that wall wasn't a bit closer, and yes good thing there wasn't a rut or boulder in the dirt for your wheels to catch.

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here is my close call. btw the grass was wet and I was so lucky the surface was smooth otherwise I could see the car easily flipping many times over if it had hit a buried rock or something. guess this was my first free pass. may not be so lucky next time

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      05-21-2012, 11:19 AM   #30
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Sorry about your crash!
The silver lining is indeed that the tires and bumper did their job and damage is largely "cosmetic". Sounds like you'll be back in no time at all!

Constructively, you already got the best advice:
- Look where you want to go
- Correct, pause, recover...

Somebody here also mentioned autocross - I absolutely agree with this! To save this one, you needed much quicker hands and that's what you gain at an autocross event. After a few autocross events, making fast, decisive corrections will be nearly automatic. I really think you should give it a shot!

Good luck on your rebuild! Hope you'll be back out there soon.
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      05-21-2012, 11:25 AM   #31
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here is my close call...
Nice job looking where you want to go!

Funny part? Stalled engine :P
It's called "two feet in", you know
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      05-21-2012, 11:28 AM   #32
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Yeah his head is staring straight out that window where he needs to go.

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Nice job looking where you want to go!

Funny part? Stalled engine :P
It's called "two feet in", you know
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      05-21-2012, 11:33 AM   #33
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Ouch. I learned one thing and that was to at least countersteer into the slide. Thanks for the video.
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      05-21-2012, 12:57 PM   #34
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Yandyr,

Sorry to see that man... Better dented car, then dented head/body.... we all here know we have to pay to play.. we all run the risk.. some luckier than others. I truely am glad that you are ok.. ( i also am amazed that the air bag did not go off..that would have sucked )

I give you kudos for posting the vid..you did the right thing in doing that.. alot of newcomers hopefully will see that and learn from your mistake ( no disrespect) but you screwed the pooch there when you froze focused on the tire wall.no input / correction etc etc ... what all have said is true, so i wont go into that all..

The car does not look horrible.. get a new hood, it will never fix right.. too much filler will be required and the heat of the turbos wont help either.. Its tweeked but not much ( not frame rail tweeked, but support panel tweeked.. she may have to go on the rack just to measure, that doesnt mean its bent ) There is alot of plastic support stuff thats busted

prior estimate was about right 3k or 4k if you know a guy.. the headlamp is about 900.00

p.s. I spun hard on the Down Hill at Lime rock. just barely got 2 tires off... straddled the curbing , went sideways and couldnt correct enough as the curbing was keeeping me side ways..finally got off the curbing, and came to a nice stop facing "traffic" cost me some lifting blocks, under panel..rocker panel cover.. alignment and New pair of shorts as i puckered tight doing that at 90+ MPH...

Regards..

p.s. Get back on the Horse BTW.. Youll be a better driver now.. dont let it get to you ..
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      05-21-2012, 01:31 PM   #35
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Damn... Really sorry to see that but like everyone else am glad you are OK. This just reaffirms that I will not take my car on the track without the aids on. It's just not worth it to me since my car is my daily driver. I agree with others though... Put the street tires back on and hit the autocross course!
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      05-21-2012, 02:05 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Yandyr,

you screwed the pooch there when you froze focused on the tire wall.
You got that right, I look at the video 1000 times, and I can see all the time I had to do something about it. But late now, thanks for the advice, comments and back on the horse as soon as it's fixed.

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Damn... Really sorry to see that but like everyone else am glad you are OK. This just reaffirms that I will not take my car on the track without the aids on. It's just not worth it to me since my car is my daily driver. I agree with others though... Put the street tires back on and hit the autocross course!
thanks, not exactly sure not having the aids on would've done anything there. Or maybe having them on a few times created some bad habits, which is just as dangerous. It's a lesson learned, money that will be spent, but like others have said, the price to play.
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      05-21-2012, 02:22 PM   #37
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This just reaffirms that I will not take my car on the track without the aids on. It's just not worth it to me since my car is my daily driver.
this is not the lesson to learn here. there are plenty of debates about aids on/off, and i'll leave that aside. this here is nothing more than driver error. the first point of HPDE is to learn how to correct this kind of thing and NOT freeze. how he ended up without an instructor in the car speaks volumes about the quality training NASA may be providing before advancing students to "solo" groups. again, i don't mean this as a slight to the OP, but this scares the hell out of me for a driver in HPDE3. i urge you to move back to HPDE2 and spend some more time with an instructor to your right.
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      05-21-2012, 02:32 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by syenisch View Post
This just reaffirms that I will not take my car on the track without the aids on. It's just not worth it to me since my car is my daily driver.
this is not the lesson to learn here. there are plenty of debates about aids on/off, and i'll leave that aside. this here is nothing more than driver error. the first point of HPDE is to learn how to correct this kind of thing and NOT freeze. how he ended up without an instructor in the car speaks volumes about the quality training NASA may be providing before advancing students to "solo" groups. again, i don't mean this as a slight to the OP, but this scares the hell out of me for a driver in HPDE3. i urge you to move back to HPDE2 and spend some more time with an instructor to your right.
Never said it was the lesson. Of course it's driver error though. Unless there was a mechanical problem with the car, gravel on the track, etc. what else would it be?

I disagree that the aids wouldn't do anything though. They would have sensed slippage from the rear and cut power before he spun. Not sure how anyone who has done the skid pad experience at the delivery center would disagree.
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      05-21-2012, 02:37 PM   #39
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It's just not worth it to me since my car is my daily driver.
Alternatively, you could purchase HPDE insurance, see http://hpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/ for example.
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      05-21-2012, 02:37 PM   #40
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Glad you're OK. You know what they say... "you gotta pay to play"

Sucks that it happened. Did you purchase any track insurance before the event to cover you?
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      05-21-2012, 02:57 PM   #41
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Never said it was the lesson. Of course it's driver error though. Unless there was a mechanical problem with the car, gravel on the track, etc. what else would it be?
what i mean is that the complete lack of hand movement is inexcusable for someone who's been advanced into a class where instructors are no longer paired with drivers. driver aids or even hypothetical mechanical issues are irrelevant. no matter what was happening, the instinct MUST be to apply opposite lock. i fault NASA as much as the OP here, as it absolutely terrifies me that this isn't an instinct he developed on street tires during his time in HPDE1 and HPDE2.
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      05-21-2012, 03:01 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtailpipes View Post
this is not the lesson to learn here. there are plenty of debates about aids on/off, and i'll leave that aside. this here is nothing more than driver error. the first point of HPDE is to learn how to correct this kind of thing and NOT freeze. how he ended up without an instructor in the car speaks volumes about the quality training NASA may be providing before advancing students to "solo" groups. again, i don't mean this as a slight to the OP, but this scares the hell out of me for a driver in HPDE3. i urge you to move back to HPDE2 and spend some more time with an instructor to your right.
So you're saying that I should spin in HPDE to to move up? Maybe the reason I was moved up is because I showed that I wasn't prone to this sort of spin. It happens, lack of being in that situation. I accept and respect your opinion but this doesn't speak anything to any quality of instruction.

I looked for an instructor and had one for a couple of sessions, even had one drive my car that weekend. Not going out thinking I"m beyond instruction or learning. But mistakes happen at any group, I've seen worse in more advanced groups and in less advanced.

So one mistake, tiredness, lack of being in that situation means what? It happend, and if you would've reacted differently then congratulations.

This is typical, in any sport "someone screws" up and all of the sudden everything is questioned. With that mind set, no one will ever advance.

Thanks for your input regardless.
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      05-21-2012, 03:07 PM   #43
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So you're saying that I should spin in HPDE to to move up? Maybe the reason I was moved up is because I showed that I wasn't prone to this sort of spin. It happens, lack of being in that situation. I accept and respect your opinion but this doesn't speak anything to any quality of instruction.

I looked for an instructor and had one for a couple of sessions, even had one drive my car that weekend. Not going out thinking I"m beyond instruction or learning. But mistakes happen at any group, I've seen worse in more advanced groups and in less advanced.

So one mistake, tiredness, lack of being in that situation means what? It happend, and if you would've reacted differently then congratulations.

This is typical, in any sport "someone screws" up and all of the sudden everything is questioned. With that mind set, no one will ever advance.

Thanks for your input regardless.
i do not think you need to spin to move up, but i absolutely DO think you need to demonstrate to your instructor your ability to drive at or near the limit of your vehicle, where such corrections are very commonplace. i hope you don't take this personally, but the video shows me that you have little or no experience driving a car at or near its limit of adhesion, as the correction needed in this case would have been quite minor, and should be second nature to anyone driving solo on a racetrack.
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      05-21-2012, 03:12 PM   #44
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Quote:
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i do not think you need to spin to move up, but i absolutely DO think you need to demonstrate to your instructor your ability to drive at or near the limit of your vehicle, where such corrections are very commonplace. i hope you don't take this personally, but the video shows me that you have little or no experience driving a car at or near its limit of adhesion, as the correction needed in this case would have been quite minor, and should be second nature to anyone driving solo on a racetrack.
I don't take stuff too personal to begin with, but your judging from a video what the correction is and should've been. Could I have corrected and saved it? yes, most likely, pretty sure. The point is that it happened, mistake was made, and it's my view to learn from it. I'm not racing, or competing so that limit was never reached for me. Yes, I don't have years of experience nor do I pretend to have. One thing I will ask though, say what you will about me, what I did, criticize, I honestly will not take it personal, and will receive everything meant in good and bad. But, lets keep the organization out of this, there's no need for it. You want to start criticizing them start your own thread, and leave my info out of it.

Thanks
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