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      07-17-2012, 01:21 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post

To your "point" on the M cars:
The 128i stats are damn near spot on an e36 M3. .
To clarify the USA/ NA M3, the euro spec had 300hp

Obivan, have you received the Supersprint headers yet for your brothers ride?
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      07-17-2012, 01:34 PM   #46
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Obihan- Show me one piece of data that confirms your opinion that the 128 will out corner and out brake the 135.
You cant because there isnt any. Show me one iota of track times that demonstrate it. You cant, there arent any.
Saying readily available forms of competition(skid pad, slalom, track times) isnt usable data is ridiculous! What you're talking about is nothing more than personal opinion on what cars one like better. You like a 128 better than the 135, fine. But dont try to pull the wool over anybodies eyes that the 128 is a better performing car. It isnt, in any measureable test. Sorry.

The E46 and 128 may have similar numbers but on a track Im sure the M3 will smoke the 128 and also blow the 128 out of the water with all those intangibles you like so much.
You mention a drag race, yet in the next sentence talk about the M3's world class handling but that has absolutely nothing to do with the 128's handling ability. Also,
comparing a modern car to one 13 years old doesnt impress to much either. A lot changes in 13 years. Ancient history.
"All of the great drivers cars " again you talk about your opinion as if everyone agrees with you. There are many of us who love a V8 with its gobs of low end TQ. You can keep your S2000, many of us will choose a 7.0L LS7 that makes massive bottom TQ and is a higher winding
N/A monster that makes 2 1/2 times as much HP at 7000rpm than your 128. Thats my opinion that many share with me. By the way, the N52 makes barely 200rwhp at about 63000rpm. Thats really not high reving. Nor making good power at that rpm. Not impressive by todays standard at all. Pretty ho hum. The S2000 for example makes more hp than the 128 at 7800rpm. Thats high reving.
I keep trying to find track times for the 128 to compare data but they're damn near impossible to find. Strange, isnt it?
Enjoy your 128. Im glad you like it better than the 135. I have nothing against a mans opinion even if I disagree. To each his own.

Last edited by NYC6; 07-17-2012 at 01:55 PM.
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      07-17-2012, 02:02 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by andrey_gta View Post
To clarify the USA/ NA M3, the euro spec had 300hp

Obivan, have you received the Supersprint headers yet for your brothers ride?
Indeed it does. My current e36 M3 has the euro engine, cammed, straight pipes, and tuned for a total of 385 hp (and it only weights 2315 lbs).

SS headers are ordered, not yet delivered.

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Originally Posted by NYC6 View Post
Obihan- Show me one piece of data that confirms your opinion that the 128 will out corner and out brake the 135.
You cant because there isnt any. Show me one iota of track times that demonstrate it. You cant, there arent any.
Saying readily available forms of competition(skid pad, slalom, track times) isnt usable data is ridiculous! What you're talking about is nothing more than personal opinion on what cars one like better. You like a 128 better than the 135, fine. But dont try to pull the wool over anybodies eyes that the 128 is a better performing car. It isnt, in any measureable test. Sorry.

The E46 and 128 may have similar numbers but on a track Im sure the M3 will smoke the 128 and also blow the 128 out of the water with all those intangibles you like so much.
You mention a drag race, yet in the next sentence talk about the M3's world class handling but that has absolutely nothing to do with the 128's handling ability. Also,
comparing a modern car to one 13 years old doesnt impress to much either. A lot changes in 13 years. Ancient history.
"All of the great drivers cars " again you talk about your opinion as if everyone agrees with you. There are many of us who love a V8 with its gobs of low end TQ. You can keep your S2000, many of us will choose a 7.0L LS7 that makes massive bottom TQ and is a higher winding
N/A monster that makes 2 1/2 times as much HP at 7000rpm than your 128. Thats my opinion that many share with me. By the way, the N52 makes barely 200rwhp at about 63000rpm. Thats really not high reving. Nor making good power at that rpm. Not impressive by todays standard at all. Pretty ho hum. The S2000 for example makes more hp than the 128 at 7800rpm. Thats high reving.
I keep trying to find track times for the 128 to compare data but they're damn near impossible to find. Strange, isnt it?
Enjoy your 128. Im glad you like it better than the 135. I have nothing against a mans opinion even if I disagree. To each his own.
I don't have a 128i or 135i.

Let's break this down to it's simplest form.

F = ma

If you increase m (mass, as in the 135 has more mass than the 128) then you have less a (turning and stopping ability, in this case) for a given F (force, which in this car is determined by a combination of tires and suspension).

The 128 and 135 have the same possible suspension and tire combinations, meaning they have the same F, which means the 135 will have less turning and braking a.


Lastly, I said the 128 is spec on a stock e36 M3, not e46 anything. And, I feel a bit like a broken record at this point, but track times do not measure handling. They measure how long it takes to drive around a track. E.G. the Z06 handles better than the ZR1, even though the ZR1 is faster around most tracks.
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      07-17-2012, 02:28 PM   #48
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I didn't even know they existed. I did know of the BBK that cost like 4,000. Most people tend to just go with BMW performance brakes. But the first link ones are a lot cheaper, but they don't provide any calipers
StopTech is a good company, and is an actual BBK unlike the BMW performance setup, but I would chose to get them direct. **********s and HPF tend to be on the crappier side of things.

http://www.zeckhausen.com/StopTech/consumables.htm

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      07-17-2012, 02:43 PM   #49
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Meant E36, just a typo.

All things being equal the 128 would have the slightest edge in cornering. The weight difference is so minor its not really negligible. Especially since the 135's power more than makes up for it.
As for braking, its not an equal thing. The 135's brakes are much larger and have better calipers than the 128's. They are better for the street and limited track use. And yes, before someone else chimes in, they sometimes have issues with extreme track usage. Even still, they are much better than the N/A's cars setup.

Most of the things you talk about are your(or others) opinion of a car. You say that the handling is better with the Z06 over the ZR1 but using your C&D list there, its basically a matter of ones opinion.

There are many who could claim the the ZR1 is better handling, opinions based on your criteria. I'll stick to track times and other measurable data(along with personal opinion) to reach a conclusion. For me, the 135 has my vote in spades over the 'high winding' 128.
I seriously doubt the 128 is faster around any track than the 135.
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      07-17-2012, 03:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC6 View Post
Meant E36, just a typo.

All things being equal the 128 would have the slightest edge in cornering. The weight difference is so minor its not really negligible. Especially since the 135's power more than makes up for it.
As for braking, its not an equal thing. The 135's brakes are much larger and have better calipers than the 128's. They are better for the street and limited track use. And yes, before someone else chimes in, they sometimes have issues with extreme track usage. Even still, they are much better than the N/A's cars setup.

Most of the things you talk about are your(or others) opinion of a car. You say that the handling is better with the Z06 over the ZR1 but using your C&D list there, its basically a matter of ones opinion.

There are many who could claim the the ZR1 is better handling, opinions based on your criteria. I'll stick to track times and other measurable data(along with personal opinion) to reach a conclusion. For me, the 135 has my vote in spades over the 'high winding' 128.
I seriously doubt the 128 is faster around any track than the 135.


You alone make up half this thread. In a thread called no 128i love

d'Fuck you doing here man? Are you that easily offended over the internet. By all means, be your car's knight in shining armor but do it else were. This might just be a legitimate 128i thread and you're about to ruin it.

Obviously you've never driven a 128i, otherwise you wouldn't be saying half the things you are. I've driven both, and that ~120lbs off the front nose does make a difference.
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      07-17-2012, 03:20 PM   #51
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You alone make up half this thread. In a thread called no 128i love

d'Fuck you doing here man? Are you that easily offended over the internet. By all means, be your car's knight in shining armor but do it else were. This might just be a legitimate 128i thread and you're about to ruin it.

Obviously you've never driven a 128i, otherwise you wouldn't be saying half the things you are. I've driven both, and that ~120lbs off the front nose does make a difference.
Not offended, just read something stupid that I disagree with and commented on it. You dont like it, tough shit. I'll post where and when I want to.

Driven 128's a couple times while my 135 was in for routine warranty work and when having my PPK installed. That was 3 days alone with the car. The extra weight of the 135 wasnt felt by me at all. On the other hand, the lack of power in the 128 was certainly felt.
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      07-17-2012, 03:40 PM   #52
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Not offended, just read something stupid that I disagree with and commented on it. You dont like it, tough shit. I'll post where and when I want to.

Driven 128's a couple times while my 135 was in for routine warranty work and when having my PPK installed. That was 3 days alone with the car. The extra weight of the 135 wasnt felt by me at all. On the other hand, the lack of power in the 128 was certainly felt.
OK, we all get it, the 135i is superior in every regards, we are all blond chicks or old guys, or could not afford it and had to stick with the lackluster underpowered 128i. Fine with me, can we move on now
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      07-17-2012, 03:43 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by andrey_gta View Post
What features does Evolve have over AA for a complete tune?
In my case specifically(in regards to the headers) they are the only ones that can turn down the post cat 02 sensors so that they both don't throw a code, but also don't show up as "not ready" for state inspection via the OBD2 port.

Beyond that, they always seem up to the challenge of whatever is presented to them, and I have greater overall faith in their ability to get more from the car. If nothing else, they have had the engine longer in the 125i and the 130i and a larger number of interested customers.
Mmw headers come with an o2 sim to trick te ecu though :/

And how do you like stock throttle sensitivity?

Push it down 1cm and hold it.. The revs shouldn't drop!!! Nor should it take a full .25 seconds to respond
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      07-17-2012, 03:48 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
Mmw headers come with an o2 sim to trick te ecu though :/

And how do you like stock throttle sensitivity?

Push it down 1cm and hold it.. The revs shouldn't drop!!! Nor should it take a full .25 seconds to respond
02 sims burn out over time.
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      07-17-2012, 03:51 PM   #55
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OK, we all get it, the 135i is superior in every regards, we are all blond chicks or old guys, or could not afford it and had to stick with the lackluster underpowered 128i. Fine with me, can we move on now
Make a comment I dont agree with, Im gonna respond. You dont have to like anything I say but this is a public forum. There are debates and discussions and arguements on them. Dont want to engage in these conversations, dont open that can of worms in the first place.

"Also, most of the time I see another 128i its normally a woman or elderly people. Of course, who says they can't be enthusiasts, but most of the time they are on the phone."

The quote above is by a 128i owner. Take it up with him perhaps.
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      07-17-2012, 04:01 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by NYC6
Quite a few comments about 135's breaking down. You guys whine about 135 owners making fun of 128's all the time yet do the same exact thing. Thats OK though. We understand your motivation.

BMW is a smart company and covers all the niches in the car buying world. There is a big market for young guys with not alot of money who fantasize about being helmeted racers, those who dont care for high performance cars, dads buying their daughters their graduation cars, those who buy commuter cars, the older who still want somethin a little 'sporty' and BMW themselves for their own loaner fleet. The car serves this purpose just fine.

By the way, there arent alot of performance parts available for the 128 because......its really not a performance car! BMW themselves designed it as such by simply using a soft magnesium/aluminum block.

The 135 has beefed up, forged internals to handle much more power than stock. BMW designed it that way. With nothing more than an inexpensive 20 min flash you can turn up the wick on the turbo cars over 100hp.
128 drivers work like hell to squeeze 10hp into their engines. Love the way they also add up the total hp gains by using manufacturers 'claims'. Rarely see a before/ after dyno to show actual gains.

The 135 might have an additional item or two that the 128 doesnt have but that goes with the territory. You pay to play. Yes, I would rather have a 12 cyl Ferrari as opposed to an 8 cyl one even though there are more parts that might possibly fail. To use this excuse to try a belittle a car is flat out reaching for straws.
There are many 135's making well over 400rwhp 450 ft lbs! Many of these cars do it relativley trouble free. Its rare to even find a dyno of a 128. Wonder why?
The 128 is a nice car but its just not a barn burner and cant be turned into one.
You should go read some moreabout the n52. Clearly you havent read a thing - originally the n52 was developed to be a sort of flagship - the internals ARE forged

Only the outer casing is magnesium , the inner is all alu.. Anyway, what makes you think that weakens the engine? You should google '2000 hp 4g63t' and see what theyr'e being made out of

The n52 is definitely capable of producing plenty of power, it's just more effort compared to the n54

I mean, in the uk theres at least 1 guy with a race prepped 130i, stock internals, just a custom ecu, new intake with itb's, new camshaft, and not even a full new exhaust, making 335hp.. That's not even going anything too crazy, not putting in the 3.2 stroker, no supercharger!

Im hoping more comes out in the next few years
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      07-17-2012, 04:05 PM   #57
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Make a comment I dont agree with, Im gonna respond. You dont have to like anything I say but this is a public forum. There are debates and discussions and arguements on them. Dont want to engage in these conversations, dont open that can of worms in the first place.

"Also, most of the time I see another 128i its normally a woman or elderly people. Of course, who says they can't be enthusiasts, but most of the time they are on the phone."

The quote above is by a 128i owner. Take it up with him perhaps.
geez, live it too short for this nonsense!
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      07-17-2012, 04:07 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
You should go read some moreabout the n52. Clearly you havent read a thing - originally the n52 was developed to be a sort of flagship - the internals ARE forged

Only the outer casing is magnesium , the inner is all alu.. Anyway, what makes you think that weakens the engine? You should google '2000 hp 4g63t' and see what theyr'e being made out of

The n52 is definitely capable of producing plenty of power, it's just more effort compared to the n54

I mean, in the uk theres at least 1 guy with a race prepped 130i, stock internals, just a custom ecu, new intake with itb's, new camshaft, and not even a full new exhaust, making 335hp.. That's not even going anything too crazy, not putting in the 3.2 stroker, no supercharger!

Im hoping more comes out in the next few years
Hey now, don't confuse him NYC6 the facts. He's having a hard enough time keeping up as it is.
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      07-17-2012, 04:10 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by NYC6 View Post
Meant E36, just a typo.

All things being equal the 128 would have the slightest edge in cornering. The weight difference is so minor its not really negligible. Especially since the 135's power more than makes up for it.
As for braking, its not an equal thing. The 135's brakes are much larger and have better calipers than the 128's. They are better for the street and limited track use. And yes, before someone else chimes in, they sometimes have issues with extreme track usage. Even still, they are much better than the N/A's cars setup.

Most of the things you talk about are your(or others) opinion of a car. You say that the handling is better with the Z06 over the ZR1 but using your C&D list there, its basically a matter of ones opinion.

There are many who could claim the the ZR1 is better handling, opinions based on your criteria. I'll stick to track times and other measurable data(along with personal opinion) to reach a conclusion. For me, the 135 has my vote in spades over the 'high winding' 128.
I seriously doubt the 128 is faster around any track than the 135.
Nobody said it was faster around a track. Completely missing the point. Again.

The weight difference, per BMW, is 165 lbs. Many independent tests have shown it to be much greater-- for example, car and driver weighted theirs and found the weight difference to be 230 lbs. Either way it is certainly significant.

Additionally, the 128 is much closer to 50/50 weight distribution, which is much better for handling as well.





I would argue that both brake setups for the 1 series suck, but if I had to chose one, I'd rather have the setup that fades than the setup that catastrophically fails. That said, I wonder if the 128i setup on the 128i is actually more prone to fade than the 135i setup is on the 135i-- less weight to slow it down and less power means less speed to be slowing from. Either way, I don't believe BMW has ever actually shipped a car with good brakes from the factory. All of mine have been upgraded to full Brembo GT BBKs :roll eyes:

Either way,
Worst case for 128i brakes: fade (probably completely addressable through track pads)
Worst case for 135i brakes: cracked pistons, melted dust boots, fade. If you address the fade with pads, you increase temps making it more likely you'll have cracked pistons and melted dust boots.

High winding, from the drivers perspective, doesn't matter what the absolute redline is. The idea is that you have to work the trans over to stay in the power band rather than just relying on torque. It doesn't matter if that happens at 7000 rpm or at 8200 rpm (as it does in my DD e46 M3).
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      07-17-2012, 04:10 PM   #60
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      07-17-2012, 04:18 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
You should go read some moreabout the n52. Clearly you havent read a thing - originally the n52 was developed to be a sort of flagship - the internals ARE forged

Only the outer casing is magnesium , the inner is all alu.. Anyway, what makes you think that weakens the engine? You should google '2000 hp 4g63t' and see what theyr'e being made out of

The n52 is definitely capable of producing plenty of power, it's just more effort compared to the n54

I mean, in the uk theres at least 1 guy with a race prepped 130i, stock internals, just a custom ecu, new intake with itb's, new camshaft, and not even a full new exhaust, making 335hp.. That's not even going anything too crazy, not putting in the 3.2 stroker, no supercharger!

Im hoping more comes out in the next few years
I would love to read more about the info regarding forged internals and the N52 being a 'flagship' engine, have a link? Im pretty sure they're not but I might be wrong.

Just checked out the engine you listed. Are you talking about the iron blocked/aluminum head one? Thats all I could find. Big difference between magnesium and al and not sure of your point, if that is indeed the one you're thinking off. Please elaborate.
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      07-17-2012, 04:22 PM   #62
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
Mmw headers come with an o2 sim to trick te ecu though :/

And how do you like stock throttle sensitivity?

Push it down 1cm and hold it.. The revs shouldn't drop!!! Nor should it take a full .25 seconds to respond
02 sims burn out over time.
Thats just like saying an o2 sensor will burn out lol

Ed: i know they do but it takes ages lol
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      07-17-2012, 04:23 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC6
Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
You should go read some moreabout the n52. Clearly you havent read a thing - originally the n52 was developed to be a sort of flagship - the internals ARE forged

Only the outer casing is magnesium , the inner is all alu.. Anyway, what makes you think that weakens the engine? You should google '2000 hp 4g63t' and see what theyr'e being made out of

The n52 is definitely capable of producing plenty of power, it's just more effort compared to the n54

I mean, in the uk theres at least 1 guy with a race prepped 130i, stock internals, just a custom ecu, new intake with itb's, new camshaft, and not even a full new exhaust, making 335hp.. That's not even going anything too crazy, not putting in the 3.2 stroker, no supercharger!

Im hoping more comes out in the next few years
I would love to read more about the info regarding forged internals and the N52 being a 'flagship' engine, have a link? Im pretty sure they're not but I might be wrong.

Just checked out the engine you listed. Are you talking about the iron blocked/aluminum head one? Thats all I could find. Big difference between magnesium and al and not sure of your point, if that is indeed the one you're thinking off. Please elaborate.
I'll have to find it when i get home (at work now ish)- the main (one of the) goals was light weight, theyr'e diamond shaped for less weight, and of course forged

And no, the reason they chose mg alu is because they have the same heat expansion characteristics so the block stays even

If you found the right one, from memory it has magnesium piston heads

Other facts: the camshafts are hollow hydroformed.

The n52 is the most technologically developed engine bmw's made, lightest (while still strong) materials, lightest everything, theres a reason it holds a record to do with that lol.. The only crazy electronic type tech on it though, is the valvetronic which appears to be fairly bulletproof lol

Ed: and on the orher topic, yes, if a 128i and 135i have the exact same suspension and brakes (and wheels ad tires) the 135i will be outperformed in all aspects other than acceleration.
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      07-17-2012, 04:37 PM   #64
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Both cars are brilliant in their own right. Love my 128 and have had some seat time in the 135. If you start a post with '128 is more reliable than 135' expect a few 135 owners to chime in.
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      07-17-2012, 04:44 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralPA E82
Both cars are brilliant in their own right. Love my 128 and have had some seat time in the 135. If you start a post with '128 is more reliable than 135' expect a few 135 owners to chime in.
What with? 'yeah? Well.. You guys.. Your engines.. Your cars sometimes have a ticking noise which doesn't effect reliability, suck shit!' ???
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      07-17-2012, 04:54 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by flinchy View Post

I mean, in the uk theres at least 1 guy with a race prepped 130i, stock internals, just a custom ecu, new intake with itb's, new camshaft, and not even a full new exhaust, making 335hp.. That's not even going anything too crazy, not putting in the 3.2 stroker, no supercharger!

Im hoping more comes out in the next few years
What is ITB, and where can we get 3.0 non stroker cams?


In all honesty this is the most passionate thread in the 128i N52 forum. Keep the debate civil, we all have valid points! The issue is definition of performance.


Has anyone actually boosted N52 to the point of failure?
I know an ARMA supercharger blew up for a e9x guy, but thats an after market super charger. So other than that case there is nothing. Therefore, the strength of n52 block cannot be argued about unless some shop takes a salvaged n52, slaps on a Garrett snail and blows it up.
Whats bad about is that n52 is fused between alu and magnesium parts so a new block would be needed to replace any such event.

I even recall a few e9x guys scratching their head over using n55 turbo on n52, because they read that n55 came derived from n52. I dont know where that thread went but my RealOEM odyssey revealed that n55 looks alot like n54 and the airbox/intke all that is on the wrong side of the engine. Anyone care to comment?
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Last edited by andrey_gta; 07-17-2012 at 05:15 PM.
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