MMW Supercharged N52 e90 (1er compatible)

[Bimmer-Bob]

I don't know how this is going to be priced, but I've heard a few people kicking around the $6k figure - which is batshit crazy. You can get more performance (and a warranty!) for less money - it's called a 135i.

And no offense to the OP, but who is he exactly? Do you really want to put a supercharger onto your Al-Mg engine that someone R&D'ed out of their garage?

[flinchy]

Putting in an aussies pov, a 130i can be had sub 30k, a 135i starts at 50k... So the same money is every suspension mod possible, bbk, full exhaust, wide body, wheels, stereo, all the bmwp cosmetics.. Heck probably even bmwp seats. And you've still spent less money

You guys over in the us? Well only reason would be their aim of 320-350whp on their 'base' kit (which really is around or even more than a tuned 135i), bit more on the low end and less weight

So really for me it's 'i could only afford a 130i at the time and hey now i can still upgrade it and still have spent less!'

Ed: and whats wrong with rnd out of a garage? It's how horsepowerfreaks started and you don't see anyone ragging on their m3 turbo gear eh?.. Except for the price..

[_Ryan_]

Originally Posted by flinchy

Putting in an aussies pov, a 130i can be had sub 30k, a 135i starts at 50k... So the same money is every suspension mod possible, bbk, full exhaust, wide body, wheels, stereo, all the bmwp cosmetics.. Heck probably even bmwp seats. And you've still spent less money

You guys over in the us? Well only reason would be their aim of 320-350whp on their 'base' kit (which really is around or even more than a tuned 135i), bit more on the low end and less weight

So really for me it's 'i could only afford a 130i at the time and hey now i can still upgrade it and still have spent less!'

Ed: and whats wrong with rnd out of a garage? It's how horsepowerfreaks started and you don't see anyone ragging on their m3 turbo gear eh?.. Except for the price..

Agreed, except I need a hatch for work, so a 135i was out of the question, the 10k difference didn't matter. Now I get to sort the handling!

And the N52 sounds great and has nice response. I've owned modified turbos and NA cars, and had missed the experience of an NA at redline.

S/C wont go astray once I do the suspension, 250rwkw is a nice amount for street in my experience.

[lakylester]

Originally Posted by NYC6

How will the stock, weaker magnesium block hold up to more hp than the N54/55 plants? How about the stock internals, crank, rods, pistons.....?

N52s aluminum/magnesium block is not suitable for the hp of turbocharging

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by Freon

Have you ever driven a 135i or 335i? That's a very interesting comment to read for anyone who has.

Yes I have, it's the reason I didn't get one.

Originally Posted by flinchy

Ed: and whats wrong with rnd out of a garage? It's how horsepowerfreaks started and you don't see anyone ragging on their m3 turbo gear eh?.. Except for the price..

Horsepowerfreaks has been shown time and time again to be talentless hacks, not a great comparison here.

Results of some of their "engine work":

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by lakylester

N52s aluminum/magnesium block is not suitable for the hp of turbocharging

Except you cant prove this since no one has really tried? Heck shitty 1.8 4cyl mitsu engines can hit 300hp

Sure the n52 wont handle stupid power like 600+hp etc but 300-350 stw on 6-7lb of boost i dont find physically unreasonable?

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Yes I have, it's the reason I didn't get one.

Horsepowerfreaks has been shown time and time again to be talentless hacks, not a great comparison here.

Results of some of their "engine work":

Ahh wow that video is horrid! I was talking about their turbo kits and tunes more than their engineering capabilities (never even thought about them building blocks tbh lol), and they did say in that vid that the tune etc was fine, just the block failed epically

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by flinchy

Ahh wow that video is horrid! I was talking about their turbo kits and tunes more than their engineering capabilities (never even thought about them building blocks tbh lol), and they did say in that vid that the tune etc was fine, just the block failed epically

The tune was ProEFI, not HPF. HPF tried to say the block failure was ProEFIs fault. And yeah, that video is pretty awful.

I would be curious as to Gavin and MMWs take on forced induction heat in regards to our aluminium/magnesium blocks.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

The tune was ProEFI, not HPF. HPF tried to say the block failure was ProEFIs fault. And yeah, that video is pretty awful.

I would be curious as to Gavin and MMWs take on forced induction heat in regards to our aluminium/magnesium blocks.

ahh wow, well fair enough. i guess when they don't screw up horribly it's pretty cool? haha

why would you get a tune from elsewhere when using HPF for other stuff though? seems strange.

i'd be more concerned with the pressure than the heat personally, i mean, daily driving should be unaffected either way, and even a track day or two with proper care, so 99.99% of users.. but what if you decided to have a rather 'extended' track day.. though.. oil temperatures even, for that matter.

[TheSt|G]

I don't ever find them cool personally. They are a failed Supra tuner that tried to bully their way into into the BMW scene with lies, threats, and coercion.

I believe Marcus got a tune from ProEFI in an attempt to fix the problems of the HPF junk on his car. In the end as that video shows, the problem was much bigger then a poor tune from HPF.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

I don't ever find them cool personally. They are a failed Supra tuner that tried to bully their way into into the BMW scene with lies, threats, and coercion.

I believe Marcus got a tune from ProEFI in an attempt to fix the problems of the HPF junk on his car. In the end as that video shows, the problem was much bigger then a poor tune from HPF.

but youtube hpf shows many bmw's (not owned by hpf employees as there's also plenty of those videos) apparently running well?

not defending them per se, but i haven't really seen much more around the internet about them being shonky

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by flinchy

but youtube hpf shows many bmw's (not owned by hpf employees as there's also plenty of those videos) apparently running well?

not defending them per se, but i haven't really seen much more around the internet about them being shonky

There is plenty if you do a bit of searching. There's a reason they are banned from M3Forum, which arguably would have been their largest market. Aside from ***********(which is little more than a subsidiary of HPF and Gintanni via Sticky), they aren't held in high regard on any forum.

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by flinchy

Except you cant prove this since no one has really tried? Heck shitty 1.8 4cyl mitsu engines can hit 300hp

Sure the n52 wont handle stupid power like 600+hp etc but 300-350 stw on 6-7lb of boost i dont find physically unreasonable?

Heres proof right here. BMW's own I6 production manager, the head guy in BMW's I6 powerplants saying exactly what I said about the weaker Mg/Al N52 block. And I quote Mr. Welter,"

In the case of the magnesium-aluminum block, Welter says, “Right now, the crankcase-stress of the turbocharged engine is above the limit of the aluminum/magnesium crankcase.”

http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analys...bo-pay-bmw-i-6

[CentralPA E82]

Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob

I don't know how this is going to be priced, but I've heard a few people kicking around the $6k figure - which is batshit crazy. You can get more performance (and a warranty!) for less money - it's called a 135i.

And no offense to the OP, but who is he exactly? Do you really want to put a supercharger onto your Al-Mg engine that someone R&D'ed out of their garage?

Wise words sir! There is a reason BMW offers both options. Personally love my 128 but the 135 is a brilliant car if you crave more power.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by NYC6

Heres proof right here. BMW's own I6 production manager, the head guy in BMW's I6 powerplants saying exactly what I said about the weaker Mg/Al N52 block. And I quote Mr. Welter,"

In the case of the magnesium-aluminum block, Welter says, “Right now, the crankcase-stress of the turbocharged engine is above the limit of the aluminum/magnesium crankcase.”

http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analys...bo-pay-bmw-i-6

Okay so we have someone 'saying' it rather than providing actual proof of trashed engine - if mmw's car gets trashed, at least we'll have proof.. And if it doesn't? What the hell was bmw talking about?

Unless sc puts dfferent pressure on the engine than turbo ?

[Bimmer-Bob]

Originally Posted by flinchy

Okay so we have someone 'saying' it rather than providing actual proof of trashed engine

Uh, he's not just "someone 'saying' it," he's the production manager of the engine! Presumably he knows what he's talking about. Who better knows the tolerances of the engine than the engineers that designed it?

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob

Uh, he's not just "someone 'saying' it," he's the production manager of the engine! Presumably he knows what he's talking about. Who better knows the tolerances of the engine than the engineers that designed it?

people who've actually physically done things to it?

i work on mobile phone (radio transmission) systems, and i could say a particular piece of hardware can only tolerate xyz, but the reality is i can't be sure until it's been put under that sort of load.

and the 7psi of a supercharger is less than the 20 odd that would be put through on a turbocharged system anyway, different systems flow volumes of air differently.

[Bimmer-Bob]

Originally Posted by flinchy

people who've actually physically done things to it?

i work on mobile phone (radio transmission) systems, and i could say a particular piece of hardware can only tolerate xyz, but the reality is i can't be sure until it's been put under that sort of load.

and the 7psi of a supercharger is less than the 20 odd that would be put through on a turbocharged system anyway, different systems flow volumes of air differently.

But don't you think the folks at BMW have actually tested their engines in some way to determine the upper limits of their performance? Or are at least relying on sophisticated computer models to do the same? I very much doubt it's just pure speculation on their part.

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by flinchy

people who've actually physically done things to it?

i work on mobile phone (radio transmission) systems, and i could say a particular piece of hardware can only tolerate xyz, but the reality is i can't be sure until it's been put under that sort of load.

and the 7psi of a supercharger is less than the 20 odd that would be put through on a turbocharged system anyway, different systems flow volumes of air differently.

So, you dont think BMW with all its avalable R&D funds and many, many mech engineers and all that they offer never tested their state of the art engine(block, internals...) to see what pressures it could take? Do you think they wanted to spend all that money and time in developing a new engine(N54) to handle the F/I if they could have used the N52? I dont think so.

The N54/55 engines are factory boosted to a little over 8lbs not 20+. They are turned up a bunch by some aftermarket tuners though and thats often when problems start.
If the N52 could have reliably handled 7-8lbs of boost I'm confident they would have used it. I think Mr. Welters satement says it all and ends debate. Sure, you might see someone come out with a kit. There are always unscupulous companies looking to make a buck not caring who they might hurt but respectable companies likely wont touch this with a ten ft pole, and havent in 8 years! They know the repercussions down the road with grenaded engines and mad customers everywhere.
There are many tried and true ways to make good N/A power with the N52 engines. F/I isnt the way to go though.

[flinchy]

Double post

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by NYC6

So, you dont think BMW with all its avalable R&D funds and many, many mech engineers and all that they offer never tested their state of the art engine(block, internals...) to see what pressures it could take? Do you think they wanted to spend all that money and time in developing a new engine(N54) to handle the F/I if they could have used the N52? I dont think so.

The N54/55 engines are factory boosted to a little over 8lbs not 20+. They are turned up a bunch by some aftermarket tuners though and thats often when problems start.
If the N52 could have reliably handled 7-8lbs of boost I'm confident they would have used it. I think Mr. Welters satement says it all and ends debate. Sure, you might see someone come out with a kit. There are always unscupulous companies looking to make a buck not caring who they might hurt but respectable companies likely wont touch this with a ten ft pole, and havent in 8 years! They know the repercussions down the road with grenaded engines and mad customers everywhere.
There are many tried and true ways to make good N/A power with the N52 engines. F/I isnt the way to go though.

What do you mean time and money developing the n54? You do realize they basically took one of their old motors and strapped two snails to it.. No frills and sensible boost.. A 3l turbo pushing barely over 300hp, that's lazy, the fact that a basic plug n play tune gets as much power as it does shows that fact lol

The tunes on the n54 don't encounter block or head problems, more valves gumming up and fuel pumps failing?


There arent really any proven ways to get power, it's taken hours of searching to find a couple of totally separate people who've gone for bug numbers, and you know what the common factor is..?

They ALL went for a motec, aftermarket ecu, to actually tune it.

If a 1.6/1.8 etc. b16/b18 honda motor can get to 600hp, heck, even the 1.8 4g93 mitsubishi handles 7 odd psi sc on sock flimsy rods, the SIGNIFICANTLY stronger n52 hould be able to do a lazy 400-450


The way i see it, of course they'd want to cover their asses as to why the 'superior' engine is being left behind.


I challenge you to find me someone who has properly modded te n52 on oem ecu. And tell me that's not what's stopping them.

Heck, even in watching gavin's process, the tuning seems to be their biggest issue.

Bmw is a business, they could have spent their money testing the n52 to the end of it's life, or gone with an alu and cast iron block that needs NO testing lol

-- i keep thinking of more reasons for then not to.. A forced induction super light weight engine in a light weight car, in that case even the *35's would have been dangerously m-competing engines...


Worst case, mmw's n52 grenades on the boost they're chasing, and i'll go my merry way and go for a 400bhp all motor

Best case it works (realistically out of everyone in the world gavin ha had the most experience with FI N52's) and someone (maybe me? Haha) will see how much boost they can actually take til they pop haha. 7psi is basically nothing in engineering terms, even the 18psi (on stock turbos) the n54's push is considered moderate in terms of what 'high' boost is. Twincharger setups in vw's are 3x psi from memory, and i know one guy over 60 in a moderately worked 4g63's (then theres the blueprinted ones being made at 70 something high static compression lol, but those ones are race onesthat get stripped every 10000)

[NYC6]

I really don't know how to respond to that other than, you really know how to go down with a sinking ship. You get some credit for that I guess.