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      08-17-2012, 12:46 PM   #287
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I own a Boxster and a 128i - - - I'm definitely getting no love!
Wow, a double whammy.
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      08-17-2012, 12:56 PM   #288
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I hope 130i owners get a bit less "no love" My 130i is wondeful, drives beutifully, is proper fast and the eingne response is impressive. It has electric like torque and with 260bph is almost as fast off the line as a 135i, it actually holds better agains the 135i in the long straights as I can sing all the way to the redline while the turbo motor kind of runs out of puff after 6k in stock format, oh, and it is no secret it handles a little tad better.
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      08-17-2012, 08:14 PM   #289
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As usual, the implication that the n52 is inferior is not based upon fact. A few minutes with google will show you that the tensile yield strength of magnesium alloys are 135-285MPa. I don't know what aluminum alloy BMW uses but I looked up 6061 and it is 125MPa. That is annealed but I do not believe you can hold a temper in 6061 at operating temperatures of an engine. At worst, they are similar in yield. I think as applied the magnesium is stronger. It is important to apply the magnesium as BMW did, however and keep it exposed to the coolant temperature, not the combustion chamber temperature. The yield strength of magnesium alloys falls off more quickly with temperature.

The advantage in density is not 30% it is 50%. Magnesium is 1.8g/cm3 and aluminum is 2.7 g/cm3.

The composite block of the n52 is not inferior to an all aluminum block, it is superior. The magnesium adds strength at less weight.

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      08-17-2012, 09:25 PM   #290
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You obviously know better than BMW's own product manager for all their I6 engines.

Tell us then, why didnt they use these blocks for the N54/55 and all the rest of the fleet including the M's?

Recheck your math. 33% of 2.7 is 1.8

Last edited by NYC6; 08-18-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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      08-17-2012, 10:12 PM   #291
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      08-17-2012, 11:24 PM   #292
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Why must every thread about N52/N54/N55 be a pissing contest??? At the end of the day both engines serve BMW well. It is blatantly obvious that the N54/55 makes more power. Truth be told, from a tech perspective the internal combustion engine has been obsolete for decades, progress is just taking its dear time catching up.
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      08-18-2012, 09:12 AM   #293
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yes, I'm so tired of the engine "debate", it really ruins good threads, I sort of expect that in the general forum, but here in the 128i section you'd think people would leave it alone. Don't understand why people are putting so much effort into policing their engines reputation.
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      08-18-2012, 07:07 PM   #294
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I'm not debating, I am only pointing out the errors in NYC6's posts. There is nothing in the article he references, at least nothing I can find, that says the n52 is inferior to the n54 as he suggests. All I saw was a statement that it is not strong enough for turbo charging. That is not what NYC suggests. Silly lies to support his view.

Even a child could do the math 1.8 times 1.5 = 2.7

I am not trying to argue which engine is better. I am only suggesting that if somebody wants to criticize the n52 they do so based upon facts and not lies.

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      08-18-2012, 07:20 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw1racer
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Originally Posted by USNEM_128i View Post


I wish the 128i had more threads etc....i always see the same exact threads. Nothing really new. Is there another forums dedicated to the 128i? that has more of an audience.
I hear ya...

It's typical for the baby in the family... But I'd take it pretty much over any current BMW.
Me too luv my 128i! Driven many cars and although not the fastest... still has enough power and handling to appreciate every drive! Nice to see Bmw has included us for performance parts, especially the perf. exhaust!
Plan to keep for a long time
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      08-18-2012, 08:02 PM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
I'm not debating, I am only pointing out the errors in NYC6's posts. There is nothing in the article he references, at least nothing I can find, that says the n52 is inferior to the n54 as he suggests. All I saw was a statement that it is not strong enough for turbo charging. That is not what NYC suggests. Silly lies to support his view.

Even a child could do the math 1.8 times 1.5 = 2.7

I am not trying to argue which engine is better. I am only suggesting that if somebody wants to criticize the n52 they do so based upon facts and not lies.

Jim
No where in my post on the previous page do I say its inferior. In fact I say its a good engine. All I did was supply a link stating why BMW themselves say why the N52 wont be used in turbo cars. You choose to think you know better than the professional who make these engines says a lot about you.
My math really isnt that good truth be known but I am able to use a calculator and subtract 33% from 2.7 and come up with 1.8. The rest of the world must be children also because everywhere its known that mg is about 30% lighter than al. And not stronger as you previously said. Facts are facts. Just because you choose to not admit it to yourself doesnt make it so. You keep living in your childlike fantasy word.


You didnt answer my question earlier. Maybe you will this time. We can hope you'll take your head out long enough to respond.
Why doesnt BMW utilize the stronger blocks in all their cars? A new one also, why wont there be anymore of these blocks in any of next years BMW's? Inquiring minds want to know.
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      08-19-2012, 07:51 AM   #297
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-1e100,
who cares! start a new thread about n52 block inferiority and quit ruining our 128i appreciation thread!
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      08-19-2012, 10:59 AM   #298
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Perhaps NYC6 doesn't understand what tensile strength is or perhaps he has another source to cite to back up his claim magnesium is not stronger than aluminum. I can explain what tensile strength is as well as the other factors referenced by engineers in making these decisions but I don't think he will listen and it probably would waste everybody's time. Unless NYC6 can cite a source to back up his claim magnesium is not stronger than aluminum, I respectfully suggest he stop making that claim.

I, for the record, have no issue with cast iron lined engines in general or in BMW's choice of one for a turbo application. I would have been comfortable with one in my 128i even though it requires a weight on the back bumper to get to the same weight distribution. I just don't like to see derogatory comments made that are not based in fact.

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      08-19-2012, 11:36 AM   #299
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Scroll down all the way to #5.
http://www.differencebetween.net/obj...and-magnesium/
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      08-19-2012, 09:38 PM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC6
You obviously know better than BMW's own product manager for all their I6 engines.

Tell us then, why didnt they use these blocks for the N54/55 and all the rest of the fleet including the M's?

Recheck your math. 33% of 2.7 is 1.8
They could spend 10's of millions on rnd to see if it can handle boost

Or they can do zero rnd, put in cast sleeves and come in WAY under budget

Besides, if the n54 weighed as much as the n52, even the 135i/335i at stock would rival the m3

Ed: and that number 5 is bull,

Magnesium is Generally stroner than aluminium, just it catches on fire very easily lol
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      08-20-2012, 09:35 AM   #301
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LMAO This discussion amuses me

Thats it, my next mod is Airride suspension & BMW X5 wheels!.
Forget BMP Springs, I own a 128i -Low and Slow

I guess if ///M got involved with n52 we wouldn't have this argument. Makes me wonder why the R&D was on making it so light weight from the factory and then just stop there. Perhaps there is a Boosted Mag Alu alloy BMW engine in the works


Wheel Weight Q
my Style 263 wheels are only 24 lb each Source: http://www.bmwstylewheels.com/bmw/263

How much benefit will i see in going with an 18 lb wheel?? or should is just go X5 wheels and get them dipped in chrome?
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"The 1-series is the last car that BMW engineered before the Germans, as a car-making culture, fell out of love with driving." - R&T 2013 135is

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      08-20-2012, 11:03 AM   #302
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Losing 6lbs a corner will make a discernable difference (improved acceleration/braking/handling).
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      08-20-2012, 12:22 PM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC6 View Post
Saying Al is stronger than Mg is somewhat subjective and doesn't relay all of the necessary info. For one thing, engine blocks are not forged, but cast (the article notes forged Al is stronger...).

Engine blocks are made from a cast Al alloy or a Mg alloy (or both in BMW's case). (Mg is a very common alloy element in Al alloys by the way). Now what neither of you know is the ALLOY that BMW used to make their block, so you cannot compare the two. Also, overall strength is determined by wall thickness, so a lower tensile strength would just require a thicker wall design to compensate. The real overall design question should be, for the given alloy strength and necessary wall thickness, which block design would be lighter (or better meets the overall engine design criteria, don't forget cost as well).

Arguing which one is better is like pissing in the wind. It all depends on the overall design of engine, application and powertrain.

Last edited by Iron Man; 08-20-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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      08-20-2012, 12:51 PM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Man View Post
Saying Al is stronger than Mg is somewhat subjective and doesn't relay all of the necessary info. For one thing, engine blocks are not forged, but cast (the article notes forged Al is stronger...).

Engine blocks are made from a cast Al alloy or a Mg alloy. (Mg is a very common alloy element in Al alloys by the way). Now what neither of you know is the ALLOY that BMW used to make their block, so you cannot compare the two. Also, overall strength is determined by wall thickness, so a lower tensile strength would just require a thicker wall design to compensate. The real overall design question should be, for the given alloy strength and necessary wall thickness, which block design would be lighter (or better meets the overall engine design criteria, don't forget cost as well).

Arguing which one is better is like pissing in the wind. It all depends on the overall design of engine, application and powertrain.
You're correct to a certain extent. The aluminum alloy used in the N54/55 blocks contains other elements, Mg included and the Mg block in the N52 contains other elements as well. The fact is, the Al block is mostly Al and the Mg is mostly Mg. The other elements are in small amounts to serve specific function. Im not saying, nor have I said the N54/55 engines are 'better' just that the N52 block are deemed not suitable for F/I power levels by the man who knows best about the engines. Direct from the horses mouth! Explains it quite simply. Some hate to hear the truth. Not too surprising.

I appreciate the technology that BMW used to make this first and one of a kind lightweight engine. Its a marvel of design and execution to marry 2 alloys together and make them work in such a great way to make power and cut a nice chunk of weight off the front of the car. Being the hp freak I am I needed more power for my DD. If not, I could have been quite happy with a 128. Its a fine package indeed.

I posted some information directly from BMW saying why they wont use the Mg/Al block for turbo cars. There are many here that have been chomping at the bitt for F/I to be made available for their cars when I dont think its coming and thats why I posted. Its not something I made up to piss owners off but thought owners would like to know the truth from the real expert in BMW's engineering/ motor building team. Mr Welter knows the exact alloy BMW alloy formulas, wall thicknesses, design criteria and all necessary data..... and concluded from all that, it wont work. Some take that as insulting when that wasnt the intent. So be it.

article mentions forged early in the article but most of it its talking about cast. And we are talking about the overall design of the engines, application(F/I) and powertrains(N54 turbos) so its all very relevant.

Last edited by NYC6; 08-20-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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      08-20-2012, 01:18 PM   #305
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NYC6 produced a reference for his view but it doesn't really say where the opinion it voices comes from. So it is pretty hard to refute.

Iron Man makes a good point which is pretty much where I am but I have a bit more information.

I found this which I think is an interesting read on the n52:

http://www.intlmag.org/files/mg001.pdf

This article says that bmw is using Magnesium alloy AJ62. Unfortunately I cannot find a readily available source for the yield strength. I believe that the aluminum alloy is very likely to be A390 - or some deriviative. It's anneal temperature is unusally high, 925 F and it is made for engine blocks so some thermal heat treatment enhancement of yield strength is credible. Annealed it is about 195 MPa, with the best heat treatment around 300 MPa. There are clearly magnesium alloys this strong but I don't know if AJ62 is.

This discussion of yields strengths is also less useful because the simple way for the engineer to deal with the difference between AJ62 and A390 is to change the cross section. Whichever one is weaker can just have a little more material in the highly stressed cross section to make up for it. In this case the contraction with cooling was also a factor affecting the casting design. Hard to say which was controlling.

I still see no basis for a claim that magnesium is weaker but I have to admit I can't prove it for these two alloys without a reference for AJ62. I hope you enjoy the article I linked, I found it to be an interesting read.

Jim
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      08-20-2012, 02:06 PM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC6 View Post
You're correct to a certain extent. The aluminum alloy used in the N54/55 blocks contains other elements, Mg included and the Mg block in the N52 contains other elements as well. The fact is, the Al block is mostly Al and the Mg is mostly Mg. The other elements are in small amounts to serve specific function. Im not saying, nor have I said the N54/55 engines are 'better' just that the N52 block are deemed not suitable for F/I power levels by the man who knows best about the engines. Direct from the horses mouth! Explains it quite simply. Some hate to hear the truth. Not too surprising.

I appreciate the technology that BMW used to make this first and one of a kind lightweight engine. Its a marvel of design and execution to marry 2 alloys together and make them work in such a great way to make power and cut a nice chunk of weight off the front of the car. Being the hp freak I am I needed more power for my DD. If not, I could have been quite happy with a 128. Its a fine package indeed.

I posted some information directly from BMW saying why they wont use the Mg/Al block for turbo cars. There are many here that have been chomping at the bitt for F/I to be made available for their cars when I dont think its coming and thats why I posted. Its not something I made up to piss owners off but thought owners would like to know the truth from the real expert in BMW's engineering/ motor building team. Mr Welter knows the exact alloy BMW alloy formulas, wall thicknesses, design criteria and all necessary data..... and concluded from all that, it wont work. Some take that as insulting when that wasnt the intent. So be it.

article mentions forged early in the article but most of it its talking about cast. And we are talking about the overall design of the engines, application(F/I) and powertrains(N54 turbos) so its all very relevant.
No, I'm not correct to a certain extent, I am 100% correct. BMW uses an Al alloy (Aluminum base with added elements, most casting Al alloys are also high in Si for improved wear) and the Mg alloy has added elements as well. Al and Mg are both pretty poor elements to use in a pure state, but when alloyed meet the design characteristics.

Al alloys are typically higher strength than Mg alloys, but strengths can vary greatly by subsequent heat treatment (solution temp, aging temp, etc.), but I believe Mg alloys have a higher strength-to-weight ratio, which is really the key design factor. An Al alloy with a high age temperature could have a lower tensile strength, than a Mg alloy with a low or two stage age heat treatment. BMW's heat treatment temps/time could also be proprietary and not the same as general published heat treat times/temps.

Now why is BMW switching to an all Al alloy block, versus the Mg-Al block? That is question no one has the answer to, and the rest is all pure conjecture. (It could be cost for all we know, which BMW would of course, not officially announce to everyone).
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      08-20-2012, 02:26 PM   #307
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Believe what you will but the discussion was not about weight to strength, Mg alloy make up, its about the strength of the N52 to withstand F/I. The head guy at BMW says no. Its really that simple. You can talk to you're blue in the face about heat treatment and all buts its not going to change that fact. Were talking to blocks here that have already been produced not what ifs. And when the production manager for all BMW I6 engines says the N52 is not suitable, its fact!

Why they went to an all aluminum block, I have my opinion about strength of the blocks and Im not thinking cost is an issue at all. BMW put the Mg/Al block in many thousands of its lower cost models. If it werent an issue, Mg/al blocks would be used in all the powerful more expensive models, M division for one. The fact that the Mg/Al block wont be in any BMW models next year speaks volumes also. You can come to your own conclusions, I did.
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      08-20-2012, 02:26 PM   #308
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