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      10-16-2012, 01:33 PM   #1
AnooooOH
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m3 rear bar myth: let`s finish this!!

When I read through the forums most comments say: only get the m3 rear bar when you`re planning to get a lsd.

BUT, why does ac-schnitzer offer ONLY a rear bar for their suspension?
Maybe you know the engineer of acs, Manfred Wollgarten.
He developed the suspension setup for the 135i on the norschleife.
He`s called suspension guru. And he is def not saying to get a lsd!

So what is this myth about? Where is it coming from?


I have the ac schnitzer type 8 wheels with 225s all around and I am planning on getting the acs suspension and the e92 rear bar.

but I`m kind of afraid to lost all traction!

Another myth was that you have no traction with 225s all around, but mr. wollgarten was right and I absolutely love this setup!
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      10-16-2012, 02:09 PM   #2
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I think the myth is due to the cost of Rear Sway bar installation.
You take alot off and to save repeat cost you may as well do other stuff while you do rear sway.

Front sway bar can be left alone.
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      10-16-2012, 02:28 PM   #3
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I was at my bmw dealer and they would charge me 2 hours labour for the installation of the rear bar and the bushings. I think that`s pretty fair!

But on the other hand everybody says that the bushings are the best you can get, so I don`t think the myth is due the labour costs.
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      10-16-2012, 02:30 PM   #4
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The only positive comment I could find:

"The M3 rear sway bar increases rear roll stiffness by reducing mass transfer forces in corners.
That should give the car crisp, quick turn-in response and reduce understeer, making the car feel more planted.
M3 anti bars give the driver the ability to rotate the car on corner entry and steer with the throttle when necessary.
It also makes the suspension (front or rear) stiffer, which will reduce the grip."
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      10-16-2012, 02:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnooooOH View Post
The only positive comment I could find:

"The M3 rear sway bar increases rear roll stiffness by reducing mass transfer forces in corners.
That should give the car crisp, quick turn-in response and reduce understeer, making the car feel more planted.
M3 anti bars give the driver the ability to rotate the car on corner entry and steer with the throttle when necessary.
It also makes the suspension (front or rear) stiffer, which will reduce the grip."
I have the Eibach one from their Pro-Kit in the back. I installed it at my home without any issues. It does create a stiffer ride but I have never had any issues with losing grip. The setup worked great when I was at the 'Ring a couple of weekends ago.
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      10-16-2012, 02:50 PM   #6
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I think JK135i (Justin) also runs a rear bar w/o a LSD. And his car has LOADS of power!
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      10-16-2012, 03:22 PM   #7
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The myth comes from two places.

One is from Dinan through me. I asked my Dinan tech advisor ,and he said Dinan tested various rear sway bars, and the car was fastest with the stock bar.

The other place it comes from is forum members who tested the M3 swaybar and got so much inside rear wheel spin, they either put the stock bar back on, or (at least one) removed the bar completely, or added a limited slip diff.

Some people have tried the 335ix rear bar, which is just slightly stiffer than stock 135i. It was only two or three people who tried it, but IIRC they liked it.
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      10-16-2012, 03:23 PM   #8
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What's the myth?
That you only need a rear sway if you also need an LSD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnooooOH View Post
BUT, why does ac-schnitzer offer ONLY a rear bar for their suspension?
I don't know. Why?

Quote:
Maybe you know the engineer of acs, Manfred Wollgarten.
He developed the suspension setup for the 135i on the norschleife.
He`s called suspension guru. And he is def not saying to get a lsd!
Ok. So much about the guy.
What is he saying about the rear sway bar?

Quote:
I have the ac schnitzer type 8 wheels with 225s all around and I am planning on getting the acs suspension and the e92 rear bar.
Ok.

Quote:
Another myth was that you have no traction with 225s all around, but mr. wollgarten was right and I absolutely love this setup!
He was right about what?

I don't think anybody would say you have "no traction" with 225s. But I think this is a rare case where more is actually better. I used to run 235 square and am now running 255 square and certainly like it better (for autocross & track).

A square setup really helps on our car though. So even 225 square is better than 225f/255r for example.

Regarding the rear sway:
As with all things, I don't think there's a black & white answer. The sway bar is one way to affect spring rates & dampening. You can do similar things with, well, springs and dampers. So whether you "need" a rear sway or not, depends on the rest of your suspension and how you use th car.

Personally, I run the stock rear sway and an upgraded front sway bar. And I do have an LSD. Especially for tighter turns, I think some rear compliance is important and helps traction and turn-in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnooooOH View Post
I was at my bmw dealer and they would charge me 2 hours labour for the installation of the rear bar and the bushings.
I find that very hard to believe. Please double check with them whether they meant all 4 rear bushings or just the 2 at the back of the sub-frame.
Changing the 2 bushings at the rear of the sub-frame can be done in <2 hours. Changing all 4 is nearly impossible in that time. Unless the dealer really likes you and you're getting some special buddy-discount, I doubt he quoted you the right thing.
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      10-16-2012, 07:16 PM   #9
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On a road course with a decent suspension and properly driven the 1 series will be fastest with the stock rear bar or no bar at all, period. 3 series will behave the same way. The only time I can see the car being faster with a larger rear bar is when really soft spring rates, LSD, wider wheel and tires or the combination of the three.
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      10-17-2012, 10:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int2str View Post
What's the myth?
He says that the rear bar is an absolute must have when you install their suspension and their wheel/tire setup with 225s all around.

I don`t know why they are only offering the rear bar.
But they are doing their job for 25 years now!
and they are no no name brand.

Last point...
I just asked them to do the 2 bushings!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
On a road course with a decent suspension and properly driven the 1 series will be fastest with the stock rear bar or no bar at all, period. 3 series will behave the same way. The only time I can see the car being faster with a larger rear bar is when really soft spring rates, LSD, wider wheel and tires or the combination of the three.
The 1m has the same rear bar as the e92m3 right?
why should they do this, if you are slower?
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      10-17-2012, 10:57 AM   #11
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Why did you ask just for 2 bushings :O ?!?
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      10-17-2012, 11:16 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
On a road course with a decent suspension and properly driven the 1 series will be fastest with the stock rear bar or no bar at all, period. 3 series will behave the same way.
Please explain your reasoning behind this.
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      10-17-2012, 12:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
Please explain your reasoning behind this.
I mentioned Dinan's reasoning. They installed various swaybars, drove the car around a track, and picked the one that gave the fastest lap times. That was the stock swaybar.

If your interest is street driving and not lap times on a track, a stiffer rear swaybar will probably make the car feel more lively and fun.
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      10-17-2012, 02:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidiman View Post
Why did you ask just for 2 bushings :O ?!?
because these two should stop the bouncing:
33312283383 (rear, 2x)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
I mentioned Dinan's reasoning. They installed various swaybars, drove the car around a track, and picked the one that gave the fastest lap times. That was the stock swaybar.

If your interest is street driving and not lap times on a track, a stiffer rear swaybar will probably make the car feel more lively and fun.
but acs tested their car with the rear bar on the track, on the nordschleife!
and like I said, the 1m has the same rear bar as the m3.

and what do you mean with "more lively"?

I`m searching for more stability!
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      10-17-2012, 02:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnooooOH View Post
He says that the rear bar is an absolute must have when you install their suspension and their wheel/tire setup with 225s all around.

I don`t know why they are only offering the rear bar.
But they are doing their job for 25 years now!
and they are no no name brand.

Last point...
I just asked them to do the 2 bushings!



The 1m has the same rear bar as the e92m3 right?
why should they do this, if you are slower?
Because some thought a flatter car must be a faster car or the lack of body roll give them a sense of confidence.
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      10-17-2012, 02:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
Please explain your reasoning behind this.
There is no reasoning. It was proven during our extensive testing for countless number of laps on road courses.
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      10-17-2012, 02:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
Because some thought a flatter car must be a faster car or the lack of body roll give them a sense of confidence.
could you give me an explanation for "flatter" pls, I don`t know the word and couln`t find it in the dict.

so maybe schnitzer uses them, because their consumers aren`t racedrivers and they wanted to give them a more planted car?

what other suspensions mods were installed on the test car?
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      10-17-2012, 03:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnooooOH View Post

and what do you mean with "more lively"?
easier to spin

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnooooOH View Post
could you give me an explanation for "flatter" pls, I don`t know the word and couln`t find it in the dict.
less body roll
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      10-17-2012, 03:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnooooOH View Post
because these two should stop the bouncing:
33312283383 (rear, 2x)

Normally, on the forum, when someone was changing these bushings, he was changing the 4 ! Aren't you frightened not to have complete stability or not having the researched effect ?


Moreover, when do you notice the bouncing ? On my car, the rebound is a bit too important for my taste and when the road changes level (down), I feel the car bouncing from left to right and naturally from hight to low. Do you have the same effects ?
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      10-17-2012, 03:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
easier to spin



less body roll
thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidiman View Post
Normally, on the forum, when someone was changing these bushings, he was changing the 4 ! Aren't you frightened not to have complete stability or not having the researched effect ?


Moreover, when do you notice the bouncing ? On my car, the rebound is a bit too important for my taste and when the road changes level (down), I feel the car bouncing from left to right and naturally from hight to low. Do you have the same effects ?
I notice the bouncing on the autobahn when I`m above 230km/h.
And when the street is not 100% flat in this moment, you have the feeling that you totally lost control about the car!
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      10-18-2012, 05:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
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I mentioned Dinan's reasoning. They installed various swaybars, drove the car around a track, and picked the one that gave the fastest lap times. That was the stock swaybar.
I'm just curious what your physics realated reasoning is, not test result reasoning. Essentally, why are you getting a faster result with a more flexible rear bar?
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      10-18-2012, 05:13 AM   #22
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Quote:
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easier to spin
Ah... so this is the real issue. Its not that the rear bar makes the car slower, its that it makes it more likely for the driver to spin, and thus he as a precaution lets off the throttle more and takes a more conservative line. Which of course takes longer.

What it comes down to is that the rear bar is sufficient for the stock setup and any average driver won't have the skills to push the car when a larger bar is added. I'm sure race car drivers would love the lack of roll, and would be more likely to eliminate the tailhappiness that is added.

I know alot of people on here complain about understeer, and i would think a larger rear bar would help make their car more balanced. I know I haven't had that experience tho, as my car is slightly tailhappy as is, even with a 265 tire.
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