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      10-30-2012, 12:48 PM   #1
Mahlzeit
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Max Camber

How much negative camber can be achieved w/out the use of adjustable camber plates?

I'm looking for a range of -1.5 to -2.0. That should be enough to avoid wasting my brand new PSS fronts in a single track day. And should allow them to last reasonably well on a primarily street driven car. Let's assume a) stock suspension and b) 1 inch lowered suspension.

I've read about removing pins and such, but don't quite understand what exactly is happening here, or what max camber can be achieved with this method.

Any help is appreciated.
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      10-30-2012, 01:05 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahlzeit View Post
How much negative camber can be achieved w/out the use of adjustable camber plates?
Almost -1 I think.
Around -1.25 with M3 control arms.

Quote:
I'm looking for a range of -1.5 to -2.0.
Camber plates!!

Quote:
That should be enough to avoid wasting my brand new PSS fronts in a single track day. And should allow them to last reasonably well on a primarily street driven car. Let's assume a) stock suspension and b) 1 inch lowered suspension.
My car is primarily street driven with about 1 autocross per month and the occasional track day. I have come to the conclusion that toe is much more damaging to the tires than camber.

I'm running around -3 front and back and my tires show no signs of camber related wear.

Quote:
I've read about removing pins and such, but don't quite understand what exactly is happening here, or what max camber can be achieved with this method.
The top shock mount is attached by 3 screws. An alignment pin helps align the shock mount to sit exactly in the right spot in the shock tower. Open your hod, you can see it on both sides on the shock tower.

Removing that pin allows the shock mount to be moved slightly inward as far as the 3 bolt holes permit. It really doesn't help all that much, but gets you closer to -1. Nowhere near enough to make a difference on track IMHO.
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      10-30-2012, 01:17 PM   #3
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-1.5 or very close to it front and rear is possible without camber plates.
I've got it.
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      10-30-2012, 01:24 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbe View Post
-1.5 or very close to it front and rear is possible without camber plates.
I've got it.
Ooops, sorry, I missed the 1M part.
Don't mind me....
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      10-30-2012, 01:59 PM   #5
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I've got -1.2 on mine at this time. BMW states -1.45 as a "max", so I think that's about as far as you can go. It will still wear the outer front tire a little with that max value, but increasing negative camber affects steering feel, so it's all a compromise ...
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      10-30-2012, 03:13 PM   #6
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int2str - it's the thought that counts,... thx.

LotusBoy - I had camber plates on my e36, and ran -2.0 on the street, -3.0 on the track. At -2.0 on the freeway, an errant sneeze could send you into the next lane. Is that what you mean about tradeoff in steering feel? Is to too sensitive to steering wheel input now? And, did you do any 'modification' or pin removal to get to -1.2 camber?

Hobbe - same mod question for you,...
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      10-31-2012, 06:53 AM   #7
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No modification at all.
Normally my cars spend most of their time on local tracks, but this time I wanted to set the max, and try it out before starting a possible upgrade with coilovers and camber plates.
After all, there are some very good BMW original parts on the 1M worth pushing to the limit before replacing with aftermarket.
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      10-31-2012, 08:18 AM   #8
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I think I got -2 at front with original top mounts, rear was less, have to look in the papers.
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      10-31-2012, 11:26 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbe View Post
No modification at all.
Normally my cars spend most of their time on local tracks, but this time I wanted to set the max, and try it out before starting a possible upgrade with coilovers and camber plates.
After all, there are some very good BMW original parts on the 1M worth pushing to the limit before replacing with aftermarket.
I like your strategy. Can you comment on handling differences between stock and your 'modified' alignment??
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      10-31-2012, 11:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm1 View Post
I think I got -2 at front with original top mounts, rear was less, have to look in the papers.
Very interested in your impressions of handling differences going form stock to modded camber. Is the rest of your suspension stock?
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      10-31-2012, 02:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahlzeit View Post
How much negative camber can be achieved w/out the use of adjustable camber plates?

I'm looking for a range of -1.5 to -2.0. That should be enough to avoid wasting my brand new PSS fronts in a single track day. And should allow them to last reasonably well on a primarily street driven car. Let's assume a) stock suspension and b) 1 inch lowered suspension.

I've read about removing pins and such, but don't quite understand what exactly is happening here, or what max camber can be achieved with this method.

Any help is appreciated.


Camber plates. Sorry..

I even went with used R tires in an attempt to not destory street tires.
That wasnt enough of a bargain as I still couldnt justify my corded R tires after a few weekends.

You won't get *near* -2 without camber plates so just get them
With camber plates you can start PS2/PSS $aving$ immediately.

Vorshlag plates will give you up to -2.8 and are available for STOCK suspension. I personally beat up Terry Fair and had them make them for you (and me!)...

So... how is the car with Camber plates vs stock?

I have two friends that drove my 1M (completely stock save Arc-8s 18x 10 all around with Hankoook RS-3 plus Vorshslag camber plates) and they both said that my car is AWESOME. They also said my car is WAY faster than their car on track..

what's The catch....? what is their car you ask? well... They BOTH own and drive a 1M.
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Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 10-31-2012 at 02:58 PM.
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      10-31-2012, 05:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahlzeit View Post
int2str - it's the thought that counts,... thx.

LotusBoy - I had camber plates on my e36, and ran -2.0 on the street, -3.0 on the track. At -2.0 on the freeway, an errant sneeze could send you into the next lane. Is that what you mean about tradeoff in steering feel? Is to too sensitive to steering wheel input now? And, did you do any 'modification' or pin removal to get to -1.2 camber?

Hobbe - same mod question for you,...
No modification was needed to get to -1.2, just the new alignment I had done after installing KW's DDC suspension. -1.45 also possible without any technical mod. Basically, more camber gives more bite to your front axle which is nice on track but as it kills understeer, it will make the car even more oversteery under power... I'd add this: BMW engineers and test drivers spent 20 months setting the car up. The result, as always, is a compromise between everyday drivability, safety and track performance. As I discovered when I was karting, fettling here and modding there can become an endless circle, the only way out being sometimes to go back to your "initial" set-up. And then noticing that it feels so much better, even though you lost a fraction on the lap times ...
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      10-31-2012, 05:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Camber plates. Sorry..

I even went with used R tires in an attempt to not destory street tires.
That wasnt enough of a bargain as I still couldnt justify my corded R tires after a few weekends.

You won't get *near* -2 without camber plates so just get them
With camber plates you can start PS2/PSS $aving$ immediately.

Vorshlag plates will give you up to -2.8 and are available for STOCK suspension. I personally beat up Terry Fair and had them make them for you (and me!)...

So... how is the car with Camber plates vs stock?

I have two friends that drove my 1M (completely stock save Arc-8s 18x 10 all around with Hankoook RS-3 plus Vorshslag camber plates) and they both said that my car is AWESOME. They also said my car is WAY faster than their car on track..

what's The catch....? what is their car you ask? well... They BOTH own and drive a 1M.
No,.... I'm sorry, clearly. I'm not sure which fucking manual I should have read. Perhaps lifehackers guide to 1M hacking.

I had coilovers and camber plates (vorshlag) on my previous e36. While I did enjoy playing w/ the height and the plates the one time I actually did, I only made it to a proper race track once. And on stock tires. At -3 degrees my front tires' shoulders held up surprisingly well to Big Willow in 100 deg heat.

So - I'm looking for a setup that is budget conscious given the tinkering and track time I'll have. Which means,... if I don't have to blow $500 (1M camber plates) and $2k on a second set of wheels/tires for a couple track track days, AND can avoid totally destroying $600 worth of tires, then great! Sounds to me like something in the range of -1.5 to -2.0 could fit that bill.

And it looks likes folks on this thread are getting around this range w/out camber plates.
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      10-31-2012, 05:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LotusBoy View Post
No modification was needed to get to -1.2, just the new alignment I had done after installing KW's DDC suspension. -1.45 also possible without any technical mod. Basically, more camber gives more bite to your front axle which is nice on track but as it kills understeer, it will make the car even more oversteery under power... I'd add this: BMW engineers and test drivers spent 20 months setting the car up. The result, as always, is a compromise between everyday drivability, safety and track performance. As I discovered when I was karting, fettling here and modding there can become an endless circle, the only way out being sometimes to go back to your "initial" set-up. And then noticing that it feels so much better, even though you lost a fraction on the lap times ...
Thanks, how much lower would you say you are in front than stock?
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      10-31-2012, 07:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahlzeit
So - I'm looking for a setup that is budget conscious given the tinkering and track time I'll have. Which means,... if I don't have to blow $500 (1M camber plates) and $2k on a second set of wheels/tires for a couple track track days, AND can avoid totally destroying $600 worth of tires, then great! Sounds to me like something in the range of -1.5 to -2.0 could fit that bill.

And it looks likes folks on this thread are getting around this range w/out camber plates.
You're not going to get any more than -1.4 out of the front stock suspension and anything less than -2.0 you'll be chewing up the outside of any tire. Maybe you should look for another e36 because modding any M after that chassis isn't cheap.
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      10-31-2012, 07:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahlzeit

No,.... I'm sorry, clearly. I'm not sure which fucking manual I should have read. Perhaps lifehackers guide to 1M hacking.

I had coilovers and camber plates (vorshlag) on my previous e36. While I did enjoy playing w/ the height and the plates the one time I actually did, I only made it to a proper race track once. And on stock tires. At -3 degrees my front tires' shoulders held up surprisingly well to Big Willow in 100 deg heat.

So - I'm looking for a setup that is budget conscious given the tinkering and track time I'll have. Which means,... if I don't have to blow $500 (1M camber plates) and $2k on a second set of wheels/tires for a couple track track days, AND can avoid totally destroying $600 worth of tires, then great! Sounds to me like something in the range of -1.5 to -2.0 could fit that bill.

And it looks likes folks on this thread are getting around this range w/out camber plates.

Re: RTFM. Ok. Not a manual, but read the responses again.

Most of the responses here are -1.2 is the max they achieved pulling pins on a 1M.


While 1.5- 2.0 might be your goal, none of the prior responses is really there ( again, for 1m), and I think a good more than that is really needed to keep from absolutely destroying your car's tires on track.


An advanced driver in a stock 1M can easily destroy the front tire tread blocks in a half a days driving of one DE.



For anyone that plans to track the car a lot I strongly recommend camber plates and I would recommend them even BEFORE wheels and tires.

the level of grip is stupendous, but in stock form this car eats tires for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

From your description however, you only rarely see the track. Pull the pins and go with the PSS or Hankook RS-3 and you'll be ok if you are a novice or intermediate level driver.

If you are a solo level hpde driver though, more than likely you'll tear up $600 in tires. Don't say I didn't tell you so.
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      11-01-2012, 07:20 AM   #17
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From memory max -1.5 camber front and rear with OEM suspension on 1M. No pins pulled.
(It could be closer to -1.4 rear. Will double check)
A slight toe-out front and toe-in rear.

I've raced a full season with Toyo 888 (265/35/18 and 285/30/18).
Rear tire wear is nice and even.
Front tire outer edge is hardly worn, but the tire shows the "typical" Toyo wear pattern (1/3 into the tire is more worn then elsewhere), but I've had this pattern on my other car too (and that car had KW Competition suspension with camber plates, and -4.5 camber), and so have my friends who are all racing their cars.

Some other components worth looking into are driving style (e.g. longer less aggressive vs. short aggressive vs. just pXXX poor planned turn-ins/turns), tire type, tire width, and tire pressure.
Some tracks are also nicer to your tires than others. We have a track on our side of the pond which is both infamous and democratic; it eats front left tires no matter who or what you are.

To recommend something is always difficult. Driving experiences, driving styles, and the kind of tracks we drive on tend to differ a lot.
However, sure you would benefit from more negative camber, especially if the car is living most of its life on the race track, but it works OK with only -1.5 if you drive for fun more than on time.

This is a driver from our club in his E46 M3 on a typical track day, and on a typical local track:


Toyo's own 888 recommendations:
Operating Temperature: 160F to 220F
Hot Inflation Pressures: 32 to 38 (psi)
Camber: -2.5 to -5.0
Caster: As much positive as possible
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Last edited by Hobbe; 11-01-2012 at 09:18 AM.
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      11-01-2012, 11:52 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahlzeit View Post
Thanks, how much lower would you say you are in front than stock?
I specified stock height for my DDC. Even so, I'm scrapping my front spoiler every now and then ! Otherwise, I'm at -1.2 bone stock, without removing the pin. My front PS2s have 10000 miles and 6 track days, and are only starting to show some outer wear. Same for some pals: are you there Luuz ? I think I'll do another season with my fronts !
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      11-01-2012, 12:58 PM   #19
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Thanks guys - this is really helpful.

I did just swapped out my PS2's for stock sized PSS.
I consider myself an intermediate track driver - have experience at Sears Point, Big Willow, Laguna Seca in DE's and a formal 3-day school. In my modded e36M3, Barber Mx5, and shifter karts.

Looks to me at least -1.5 is achievable w/out camber plates, but on a lowered suspension. If I go this route (say w/ KW V3), I'll only have to worry about keeping myself on a leash and not bombing each corner and rolling the fronts over on themselves. Budget permitting I like to save that type of driving to rented and insured equipment.

Last edited by Mahlzeit; 11-01-2012 at 04:25 PM.
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      11-01-2012, 03:51 PM   #20
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Hi, I was able to get quite a bit of camber by removing the alignment pins, but my car is very low (H&R Sport Springs). In the left side I have -1.52 and in the driver side -1.32, that was the most they could get by pushing all the way in the tires as much as the slot in the shock tower allowed.
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      11-01-2012, 07:17 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbe
From memory max -1.5 camber front and rear with OEM suspension on 1M. No pins pulled.
(It could be closer to -1.4 rear. Will double check)
You're absolutely incorrect. There is no way you can get -1.5 in the front without removing the pins and lowering the car. Also, max rear camber is over -2.0.
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      11-02-2012, 04:43 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaddylo View Post
You're absolutely incorrect. There is no way you can get -1.5 in the front without removing the pins and lowering the car. .
Well, lets see if I can find that piece of paper again.
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Last edited by Hobbe; 11-02-2012 at 04:51 AM.
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