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      12-05-2012, 04:45 AM   #1
annalisa_ferri
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Thumbs down ECS brake rotors for E8X: MADE IN …CHINA !!!

Hi folks,

This is to share my personal experience with the ECS products, and the (not so) little things that you discover only if you buy something from these apparently cool guys in Wadsworth, OH.

Many 135i owners are looking for the same thing: a good set of drilled rotors to replace the stock, boring BMW plain discs. To find something good on the market without going for hyper-expansive BBK kits (like the Brembo racing) or staying on the BMW Performance line (expansive and hard to find for the rear axle), is definitely not an easy task. Surfing the internet I run into the ECS products, and God dammit…they got them! The specs are amazing:

• Front: 2-piece semi-floating construction, anodized Aluminum hats, gray cast iron rings, heat treated, drilled and slotted, directional veins – only $ 450 per pair!
• Rear: drilled and slotted, anti-rust treatment – only $ 136 per pair!

Considering that they are a bolt-on mod, it sounded an exceptional chance to secure a perfect set for a very good price. In addition to this, ECS highlights the high quality of their products with lots of proud: “superior performance”, “real world benefits” and “never compromises” are slogans spread all over the range descriptions, and work well in giving you the confidence you are looking for.

Therefore, I bought them.

The surprise arrives when you open the box: you discover that the front pair is manufactured in Taiwan, and the rear in China!!! Have a look to the invoice I have attached if you don’t believe me.

Jesus, I live one hundred miles from the German border and I ended up buying Chinese rotors in the US (and paid 200+ Dollars to have them shipped to Europe)! This is not a joke, guys.

After the purchase (unfortunately too late) I immediately contacted the ECS online customer support asking for clarifications; the first answer was totally inconsistent, since they stated that their rotors are manufactured in the US. Have a look to the exchange we had on this first try (attached).

What should I derive from this? At best, not all ECS people seem not to know the true story about the products they sell.

Of course, I didn’t stop here. The following is the second run of email exchange with their sales department; as you can see I tried to be gentle but asked very precise questions at the same time:

My question:
"Dear Sir/Madam,
looking at your brake rotors for my BMW 135i (ES#2550968 and ES#2539490), I noticed that no DOT or TUV approval is mentioned.
Being brake parts very important for vehicle safety, I wonder what quality standard is applied in producing those discs.
Can you please explain where those rotors are manufactured, and what quality check they have to pass before being sold?
Best regards”

ECS answer:
“Thank you for your interest for additional information regarding ES#2550968 and ES#2539490.
DOT and TUV approval
All rotors sold by ECS Tuning are compliant with DOT standards.
Rotor Manufacturing
ECS Tuning GEOMET rotor blanks are sourced domestically from vendors who have worldwide manufacturing operations. Many of the rotor blanks originate from Italy, Turkey, Brazil and Asia but each part number may have a different country of origin. Engineering design, machine work and coating take place in the United States through our preferred manufacturing partners.
Quality Control
ECS Tuning is dedicated to selling safe, reliable and high performing products. For this reason, all ECS Tuning products are subject to a Quality Inspection process to ensure we are selling products that live up to these high expectations.
Thank you”

My question:
“Hi,
thanks for the reply.
You mention the GEOMET rotors only. Is this valid also for the 2-piece rotors?
Best regards”

ECS answer:
“Correct. This is a valid statement for both GEOMET and the ECS 2-Piece rotor with the exception of the coating. The 2-Piece rotors are not coated as the GEOMET rotors are.
Thanks”

In this second round they admit that rotors arrive from various countries and, funny enough, they list “Asia” instead of being more precise and write down that they buy from China and Taiwan.

I’m sorry guys, but there is no check that you can do in house to replace the quality control that has to be made in the production lines that actually manufacture the rotors. This is done (if ever) in the Chineese or Taiwanese plant. That’s it. Then you can perform a very good drilling or a superior coating in the US, but this will be done on a piece of metal which has been possibly subject to uncontrolled heat treatments, uncertain forming and unknown handling; and this piece of metal will take soon the shape of your rotor.

But let’s have a look to the third attempt to communicate with them, to show you there is no way to convince them that this information is not the kind of thing you can forget in the product description:

My question:
“Dear ECS support,
it is with disappointment that I write this email.
I just received my rotors and discovered that they are manufactured in China and Taiwan; not exactly great for a company which claims “superior performance”, “real world benefits” and “never compromises" for its products.
I will do my best to inform the tuners and enthusiast community about this to the maximum extent possible. People should know what you actually sell.
With regards”

ECS answer:
“Thanks for writing. Yes, you are correct that some of our products are manufactured in countries across the world, which should be of no surprise as many companies have products manufactured in countries throughout the world. We will tell our customers where any product is manufactured if he or she asks. If you were concerned with the manufacturing location of the products, we may only recommend that you contact a seller with those inquiries in the future.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask”

My question:
“Dear ECS support,
yes, nowadays outsourcing is normal, and I would not mind if you procure items from countries with a proven record of quality in automotive products like Germany or Italy.
I do mind if your providers are located in China and Taiwan, and it is useless to say why. We are not dealing with spoilers or floor mats. We are talking about semi-floating brakes of a 170+ mph car.
Since you seem to be very confident in what you say, you won't mind if I spread this information around, won't you?
Best regards”

ECS answer:
“As we have mentioned before, we will tell any customer where our products are made if he or she asks. If the country of origin was a concern of yours, than you should and could have asked the question prior to submitting the order. If this is that big of a concern for you, than return them for a refund.
Let us know what you want to do. Thanks!”


So, ECS position is very clear: they feel like where the rotors are manufactured is not important, the only relevant thing is where they are machined or coated, and they will disclose this information only upon request. Ah, ah, you prefer not to write “China” or “Taiwan” in your site, eh? If this is not a critical issue, I wonder why not being really transparent and write down all the info the (potential) buyers need to conclude on the product.

Of course, I’m not going to put their rotors on my car, neither to ship them bak to the US at my own expenses (225 USD...), but you can understand my disappointment when discovering that my beloved trust in the quality of the US products and in the commitment of the US customer care has not been confirmed this time.
Only after, I discovered that ECS was known already for selling cheap Chinese-made stuff, especially for Audi and Volkswagen: just google ECS+China, scroll 2 or 3 pages, and you may discover also which are their suppliers in that countries. Unfortunately, I made this search too late.

Take your own conclusions, guys. From my point of view, the more I buy around, the more I see that the motto “You got what you paid for” is tremendously true.

Cheers
Attached Images
  

Last edited by annalisa_ferri; 12-05-2012 at 06:50 PM.
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      12-05-2012, 05:32 AM   #2
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Not surprising to say the least. There are a lot of companies that manufacture their items in Asia. But for that price you were better off buying the OE Performance rotors. I wonder where they are made? lol.
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      12-05-2012, 05:42 AM   #3
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Indeed.
BMW Performance have a nice "made in germany" stamp...
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      12-05-2012, 06:20 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annalisa_ferri View Post
Of course, I’m not going to put their rotors on my car,
Of course, because if you did, you would surely die.
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      12-05-2012, 04:09 PM   #5
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annalisa,

Situation:
· Action: After you purchased and received your order of ECS GEOMET® Rotors and ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors you contacted multiple departments here at ECS Tuning asking the same questions concerning specific details regarding our rotor manufacturing.
o Result: ECS Tuning responded to all inquiries in a timely and professional manner.

· Action: You brought to ECS Tuning's attention that you were given incorrect information about the Country of Origin of a product.
o Result: We quickly clarified to you that not all ECS rotors are manufactured in the United States. Additional training has since been performed with our staff to address any further confusion on this topic.

· Action: You contacted our Customer Service department expressing your unhappiness with your purchase.
o Result: Our Customer Service department offered you a refund if you are not satisfied with the product in which you received.
§ Result: You declined and threatened to go on the forums with this information. In our opinion we have nothing to hide so here we are….....
Summary:

We do apologize that the rotors do not meet your Country of Origin expectations but we can assure you that you would be more than pleased with their performance. We sell our rotors all over the world and have received a lot of praise and positive reviews on both their performance and cosmetics



ECS GEOMET® Rotors


Our ECS GEOMET® Rotor blanks are sourced domestically from vendors who have worldwide manufacturing operations. A majority of our rotor blanks originate from Italy, Turkey, Brazil, Asia, Mexico among others, but each part number may have a different country of origin. The rotors are designed in house by our Research & Development department and machine work / GEOMET® coating are preformed to our specification in the United States through our preferred manufacturing partners.



ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors


Our ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors are engineered by our Research & Development department and manufactured to our specifications in both the United States (95% of our applications) and Taiwan (5% of our applications) depending on the application. We have designed our ECS Tuning 2-Piece rotor line to include the features of a much more expensive multi-piece rotor at an affordable price point. Countless hours of engineering, testing and quality control measures were invested into this product line to ensure the ECS Tuning product goals were accomplished.



Country of Origin of Website

In response to your request that we list the Country of Origin on all products, we will definitely take this suggestion into consideration. However, we are in compliance with all Federal Trade Commission regulations and take this topic very seriously. If any customers would like additional information on the origins of a product, please contact our Sales Department at 800.924.5172.



Any further questions can be directed to us via PM or contact our Customer Service Department at 800.924.5172.



Happy Braking!

Last edited by ECSTuning; 12-05-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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      12-05-2012, 06:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annalisa_ferri View Post
Indeed.
BMW Performance have a nice "made in germany" stamp...
Who gives a shit where they are made. I could make my rotors on the moon and they could still be of good quality. You know nothing of their process or how they are made, how much the workers are paid, what quality standards they hold, etc.

With a company that big there is sure to be a communication error from time to time leading to a misunderstanding. Its business and its gonna happen.

The worst thing is you treat it like everything made in America is gods gift to humanity. Idiots make things here too, and smart people make good products in poor countries.

You sir need to shut up.
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      12-05-2012, 06:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
The worst thing is you treat it like everything made in America is gods gift to humanity. Idiots make things here too, and smart people make good products in poor countries.
Sure. And I'm free to decide if buying from idiots, from smart, poor or rich, or any combination of above. And I can decide only if I got the relevant infos. This is what I'm asking for. That's it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
You sir need to shut up.
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      12-05-2012, 06:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
annalisa,
Situation:
• Action: After you purchased and received your order of ECS GEOMET® Rotors and ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors you contacted multiple departments here at ECS Tuning asking the same questions concerning specific details regarding our rotor manufacturing.
o Result: ECS Tuning responded to all inquiries in a timely and professional manner.
Absolutely true; the efficiency of your customer service is not under question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
• Action: You brought to ECS Tuning’s attention that you were given incorrect information about the Country of Origin of a product.
o Result: We quickly clarified to you that not all ECS rotors are manufactured in the United States. Additional training has since been performed with our staff to address any further confusion on this topic.
Very good, there is always room for improvement

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
• Action: You contacted our Customer Service department expressing your unhappiness with your purchase.
o Result: Our Customer Service department offered you a refund if you are not satisfied with the product in which you received.
§ Result: You declined
To return the set at my own expenses doesn't sound a real solution to me; may I recall that I paid 225 USD for the shipping?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
and threatened to go on the forums with this information. In our opinion we have nothing to hide so here we are….
Not true, dear. The scope is not threaten anybody, but to exchange opinions with other users, inform and being informed. I don't have anything to hide as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
Summary:
We do apologize that the rotors do not meet your Country of Origin expectations but we can assure you that you would be more than pleased with their performance. We sell our rotors all over the world and have received a lot of praise and positive reviews on both their performance and cosmetics
Maybe you missed it, but there isn't a single word here (and elsewhere) about the performance of your rotors. Simply this is not the topic. The issue is the level of information and the quality control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
ECS GEOMET® Rotors
Our ECS GEOMET® Rotor blanks are sourced domestically from vendors who have worldwide manufacturing operations. A majority of our rotor blanks originate from Italy, Turkey, Brazil, Asia, Mexico among others, but each part number may have a different country of origin. The rotors are designed in house by our Research & Development department and machine work / GEOMET® coating are preformed to our specification in the United States through our preferred manufacturing partners.
ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors
Our ECS Tuning 2-Piece Rotors are engineered by our Research & Development department and manufactured to our specifications in both the United States (95% of our applications) and Taiwan (5% of our applications) depending on the application. We have designed our ECS Tuning 2-Piece rotor line to include the features of a much more expensive multi-piece rotor at an affordable price point. Countless hours of engineering, testing and quality control measures were invested into this product line to ensure the ECS Tuning product goals were accomplished.
This is already a bit more specific than what is currently in your description; if you really are going to include what you list in the following lines (Country of Origin of Website), I think this would solve the issue, from my point of view.
Thanks for your contribution, it is always good to have both the points of view in the same place.

Happy machining, drilling and coating...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
Country of Origin of Website
In response to your request that we list the Country of Origin on all products, we will definitely take this suggestion into consideration. However, we are in compliance with all Federal Trade Commission regulations and take this topic very seriously. If any customers would like additional information on the origins of a product, please contact our Sales Department at 800.924.5172.
Any further questions can be directed to us via PM or contact our Customer Service Department at 800.924.5172.
Happy Braking!
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      12-05-2012, 06:17 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by annalisa_ferri View Post
Sure. And I'm free to decide if buying from idiots, from smart, poor or rich, or any combination of above. And I can decide only if I got the relevant infos. This is what I'm asking for. That's it.



And the world should know that the customer was crazy, and that the retailer is just as good as its ever been.
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      12-05-2012, 06:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
And the world should know that the customer was crazy, and that the retailer is just as good as its ever been.
You're free to feel like this, of course.
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      12-05-2012, 06:28 PM   #11
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Those ECS rotors look like they are of high quality. I doubt that they are going to break. I-phones are made in China and they are high quality, very expensive phones. I guess the fact that you were expecting USA made products and got China, got you upset. Which I can understand. You already have the rotors, you might as well use them or sell them locally.
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      12-05-2012, 06:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodzilla View Post
I guess the fact that you were expecting USA made products and got China, got you upset. Which I can understand. You already have the rotors, you might as well use them or sell them locally.
So there are gentlemen out there.
Thanks for the clean, smooth opinion, sir
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      12-05-2012, 06:57 PM   #13
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You are welcome
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      12-05-2012, 08:53 PM   #14
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Whats wrong with these? For the price it might be a great value.

Otherwise buy BMW performance and be done with it
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      12-05-2012, 09:25 PM   #15
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I agree they look to be top notch for the price i wood rock them nothing wrong with made in China or other places
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      12-06-2012, 12:03 AM   #16
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Cool story bro.
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      12-06-2012, 05:35 AM   #17
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I wonder why so many state it's so good to buy china...and then drive a german car.

Am I missing something?
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      12-06-2012, 09:22 AM   #18
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I think the rotors being cheap was made by possible by the cheap labor, and cheap materials in China. Now if you want something top notch, then buy an expensive one.

I don't think the rotors (China or USA or anywhere else) are being made so you can purposely die or get into an accident on the road....
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      12-06-2012, 10:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annalisa_ferri View Post
I wonder why so many state it's so good to buy china...and then drive a german car.

Am I missing something?

I would say you are missing something
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      12-06-2012, 10:47 AM   #20
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Just to reiterate some points here:
Our 2-piece rotors are manufactured largely in the United States, with some applications being manufactured in Taiwan. Regardless of manufacturing location, our rotors are designed in-house by the engineers in our Research & Development Department. We are dedicated to the quality of our product line and invests countless hours of engineering, testing, and quality control to ensure our products meet our standards.



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      12-06-2012, 11:28 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
Our 2-piece rotors are manufactured largely in the United States, with some applications being manufactured in Taiwan.
Ok, I was the unlucky guy who took the taiwanese...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
Regardless of manufacturing location, our rotors are designed in-house by the engineers in our Research & Development Department.
Super! But excellent engineering can be easily blown away by inconsistent manufacturing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
We are dedicated to the quality of our product line and invests countless hours of engineering, testing, and quality control to ensure our products meet our standards.
It is so easy, then: please explain more in detail what you actually do once you receive the rotor blanks from wherever outside the US:

  • how do you check that the correct alloy has been used
  • how do you ensure that correct forming has been performed in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever foundry
  • how do you verify that the proper heat treatment has been applied in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever plant
  • how do you check that blanks have been handled properly
  • and so on...

As you can see, it'a all about details.
Answer to this and, be sure, I will be happy.
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      12-06-2012, 11:45 AM   #22
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Ok, I was the unlucky guy who took the taiwanese...
It doesn't matter for the love of god! Its the same damn thing
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