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      12-07-2012, 11:11 AM   #45
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We will attempt to answer your pointed questions as clearly as possible. Rest assured that we at ECS are passionate about what we do and we take pride in our products and great responsibility in how they are designed, manufactured, quality inspected, and tested. These are rotors that we are proud to run on our own cars, including but not limited to an Audi R8 and BMW E90 M3.

How do you check that the correct alloy has been used?
We subject products from our suppliers to not only dimensional quality inspection, but also material analysis. First production samples are submitted to a materials testing lab to verify that the material meets specifications. In this case, we are working with suppliers that we have a long standing manufacturing partnership with and can assure you they are made of the high quality materials we have specified.

2 Piece Rotor Rings:
  • Our rotor ring supplier is ISO 9001 certified.
  • Our rotor rings are made from FC-30 (equivalent to US ASTM standard 45A/DIN GG30) cast iron with a carbon content as high as 3.3%.
  • Why cast iron?
    • Cast iron actually gets stronger between 500-600F and displays stable mechanical properties up to and over 1000°F
    • Hardness and strength aren’t compromised due to heat which contributes to great wear resistance, particularly at elevated temperatures.
    • Excellent thermal conductivity and heat absorption properties. High heat capacity (heat absorption) combined with high thermal conductivity make it a great material to absorb and dissipate heat more quickly
    • One of the best materials for good vibration damping properties; contributes to quiet braking and no rotor induced squeaking

2 Piece Rotor Hats:
  • CNC Machined from billet 6061-T6 aluminum.
    • Why 6061-T6?
      • T6 temper 6061 has an ultimate tensile strength of at least 42,000 psi (300 MPa) and yield strength of at least 35,000 psi (241 MPa). Coupled with it's excellent strength, light weight nature and superior thermal conductivity, we are able to produce a much lighter rotor that is better able to dissipate heat, and withstand the stresses of thermal expansion pushed to the limit.

How do you ensure that correct forming has been performed in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever foundry?
  • Are you referring to casting defects? Rotor rings are cast, then CNC machined to our specification. In this case we are at the mercy of our supplier, who is ISO 9001 certified, to correctly cast a rotor ring. Final machining/dimensional inspection is easily performed in house.
  • Any casting defects are easily found during the machining process, again being processed at a facility that is ISO 9001 certified.
  • Rotor hats are CNC machined from 6061-T6 billet. There is no "forming process", as you call it.


How do you verify that the proper heat treatment has been applied in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever plant?
  • For our 2 piece rotors, the heat treatment that is performed is only for stress relief after the casting process. This stress relief is to reduce the potential for stress cracks and warping due to residual stresses left over from the casting process.
  • Our ECS GEOMET® rotors follow standard casting and machining best practice for a high quality OE replacement rotor.
and so on...

To answer a few relevant questions you didn't ask:
  • ALL ECS suppliers are subject to scrutiny regarding their quality management systems. All are either ISO 9001 certified, or have clear and documented quality control systems in place.
  • All ECS designed products are subject to incoming quality inspection at ECS with a CMM (coordinate measuring machine) by our team of R&D engineers. This internal quality inspection system is well documented and serves to ensure our suppliers are consistently giving us product that meets our quality and performance expectations.
  • All ECS designed products are subjected to test fitment and road testing.
  • Our 2 Piece Rotors have been subjected to thousands of miles of hard street use and to the elements (including snow and salt) for years. They have also been subjected to scientific brutal stress testing at the track, performing countless high speed stops in quick succession. We have measured stopping distances and elevated rotor temperatures of over 1000*F for long sustained periods (to the point of rotor bluing and catching brake pads on fire), as well as subjecting rotors to careful post-test inspection for signs of irregular wear, warping, stress cracking, or any other signs of failure.
  • Our rotors have proven themselves to be robust, demonstrating excellent wear characteristics, no warping, no thermal stress cracking, no signs of hot spots and minimal pad glazing.
  • Ever do 100 emergency stops from 100 to 0 mph in quick succession? We have, many times. It's nauseating and exhausting.



We are confident these rotors will perform well. Any further information regarding the development and design of these rotors is deemed proprietary and confidential. No further questions will be answered.
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      12-07-2012, 12:19 PM   #46
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To the originally OP, your fear of Chinese made brakes shows how ignorant you really are about manufacturing and QC.

It is not like you put the brakes on your car and they failed prematurely, or did not perform as designed.

The quality of the brakes depend greatly on the design (done by a US company) and the inspection/testing of the product before shipment. It sounds like ECS does a pretty thorough over-inspection of the product before it is shipped.

Now if the brakes had been designed by the Chinese manfacturer and no over-check was done by ECS, I would be worried (which is not the case here). If the parts meet ECS designed parameters, they should operate perfectly fine in application.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill and disparaging a perfectly good company based on a product you have not even used. It is not like they lied to you and if you were so damned worried about the brakes coming from China, you should have asked BEFORE you ordered.

The customer is NOT always right.
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      12-07-2012, 12:20 PM   #47
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Finally ECS did the homework…

It took more than 6500 views and 300 replies (and counting) from users all around the world to have substantial questions related to quality and process control answered.

Why this harsh, sometimes boring pin-pall was needed, remains a mystery to me, especially considering that many other manufacturers have this information readily and easily available in the description of similar products. Just as example, have a look to this from PFC – Performance Friction:

“ALL parts are proudly made in the USA”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/about-us/faqs.aspx

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO/TS 16949 : 2009”

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO 14001 : 2004”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/p...on-brakes.aspx

As I admitted several times, my error remains: not having asked in advance, and having assumed that ECS does the same as others do: making this product in the USA. But you know, once the confidence is lost, it is lost. That’s it.

I can only hope that ECS would include the infos in his web pages, side by side with a clear statement about the origin of the products. To discover this opening the box and hearing “we would have told you if you only had asked” is not a serious approach.

Thanks to ECS and to who has (positively) contributed to the discussion.
Following ECS, I will not keep the thread alive.



Last edited by annalisa_ferri; 12-07-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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      12-09-2012, 03:53 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Man View Post
To the originally OP, your fear of Chinese made brakes shows how ignorant you really are about manufacturing and QC.

It is not like you put the brakes on your car and they failed prematurely, or did not perform as designed.

The quality of the brakes depend greatly on the design (done by a US company) and the inspection/testing of the product before shipment. It sounds like ECS does a pretty thorough over-inspection of the product before it is shipped.

Now if the brakes had been designed by the Chinese manfacturer and no over-check was done by ECS, I would be worried (which is not the case here). If the parts meet ECS designed parameters, they should operate perfectly fine in application.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill and disparaging a perfectly good company based on a product you have not even used. It is not like they lied to you and if you were so damned worried about the brakes coming from China, you should have asked BEFORE you ordered.

The customer is NOT always right.
OP is little more then a brand/country whore, and a cheap one at that. What more would you expect?
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      12-09-2012, 08:18 AM   #49
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I might actually be interested in picking up a set of these now. More research is in order...
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      12-09-2012, 11:51 AM   #50
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What I don't understand is why anyone would buy $400 rotors and spend $200 to get them shipped, regardless of where the parts are made.
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      12-09-2012, 12:00 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tee-Dub View Post
What I don't understand is why anyone would buy $400 rotors and spend $200 to get them shipped, regardless of where the parts are made.
Because over here in Germany... the BMW OE rotors cost ~180 euros per rotor w/o 19% German sales tax! That makes each rotor cost around ~$280 EACH!

BMW Performance rotors cost 10 euros more per rotor. (Btw... those prices were from two years ago) when I replaced my rotors. It looks like BMW has dropped the price of the OE rotors to 124 euros now(each). I am sure for the OP, BMW OE rotors aren't cheap in his country.

http://bmwetk.info/teile-katalog/prd...607/34/34_1766


I have tried using ATE or Brembo or Bosch OEM rotors on my older BMW's.
The price difference is 1/3 the costs of BMW rotors.

Every time I am disappointed with the results. They always wrap. You have to think of driving on the Autobahn as a HPDE(track event). You simply can not cut corners when it comes to brakes or tires. Once I started using BMW rotors - I have had no problems. I always buy OE now and never OEM when it comes to brakes or tires(top tier brands).

Dack
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      12-09-2012, 12:17 PM   #52
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I figured as much Dack. Just thought there would be some locally available alternative for near the same price for you guys over there without having to deal with shipping from the USA, and the associated costs.
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      12-09-2012, 12:20 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tee-Dub View Post
I figured as much Dack. Just thought there would be some locally available alternative for near the same price for you guys over there without having to deal with shipping from the USA, and the associated costs.
Noop. Over here you just pay and pay! We live in the land where a liter of oil costs 30 euros and a gallon of gas is $9. Plus there are all sorts of weird taxes and fee's.


Luckily for those of us in the Armed Forces have "other" options. But still sometimes you get stuck paying economy prices for things.
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      12-10-2012, 04:56 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
Noop. Over here you just pay and pay! We live in the land where a liter of oil costs 30 euros and a gallon of gas is $9. Plus there are all sorts of weird taxes and fee's.
+1
And take into account that the exchange ratio USD/EUR is very favourable to Europeans, making shopping in the US very attractive
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      12-10-2012, 09:01 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
Because over here in Germany... the BMW OE rotors cost ~180 euros per rotor w/o 19% German sales tax! That makes each rotor cost around ~$280 EACH!

BMW Performance rotors cost 10 euros more per rotor. (Btw... those prices were from two years ago) when I replaced my rotors. It looks like BMW has dropped the price of the OE rotors to 124 euros now(each). I am sure for the OP, BMW OE rotors aren't cheap in his country.

http://bmwetk.info/teile-katalog/prd...607/34/34_1766


I have tried using ATE or Brembo or Bosch OEM rotors on my older BMW's.
The price difference is 1/3 the costs of BMW rotors.

Every time I am disappointed with the results. They always wrap. You have to think of driving on the Autobahn as a HPDE(track event). You simply can not cut corners when it comes to brakes or tires. Once I started using BMW rotors - I have had no problems. I always buy OE now and never OEM when it comes to brakes or tires(top tier brands).

Dack
My philosophy has always been you get what you pay for and if the price is too good to be true, there has to be a reason for it.

Now, when it comes to auto parts, I think this is definitely the case. The only reason brakes/tires can be so much cheaper is 1) They use cheaper mfg process/cheaper materials (cast vs. forged, lower grade cast iron, don't heat treat, etc.) or 2) cheaper labor (China, Vietnam, etc.).

I'm sure some mark up is just brand related, but when I look at buying brakes I research the hell out of how the manufacturer is making their brakes. The really cheap ones always omit some key steps in their process to make them less expensive AND they are made in China (or other cheap labor country).

In this case, I think they are lower in price because of Chinese mfg, not because of engineering. I would be more leary of cheap engineering compared to being made in China. Quite often Chinese mfg have the latest and greatest equipment (casting/forging/machining/etc.) since they are relatively new to the business and the huge amount of investments being made in the country.
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      12-13-2012, 02:46 PM   #56
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#popcorn
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      12-17-2012, 10:05 PM   #57
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Good to know!
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      12-17-2012, 10:25 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stohlen View Post
It doesn't matter for the love of god! Its the same damn thing
It's not the same thing...sorry....

The Taiwanese would generally be a superior product to the china product, but I wouldn't put either against a German / Italian product.

Please note, these are general statements and as stated above, a smart taiwanese could make a better product than a retarded german.

I've dealt with 'quality' china crap and it's just that...
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      02-06-2013, 09:23 PM   #59
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I have a new bmw 328, i change the OEM wheels and guess what, they where made in China.

Have anyone has used these rotors?
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      02-07-2013, 09:05 AM   #60
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I have a new bmw 328, i change the OEM wheels and guess what, they where made in China.

BMW does make cars in China for the Chinese market. You won't find any of those cars being sold over here(in Europe) though!
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      02-07-2013, 10:12 PM   #61
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This thread is pretty funny! Must have missed it when it got started, but I'm laughing now at least.

I've been in racing and performance aftermarket brake system engineering and manufacturing for well over 20 years now. Saying a brake component (or anything else, for that matter) is good or bad just based on the company of origin is, in today's world, a tragic over-simplification.

People should understand that iron casting was invented in China about 7,000 years ago, right? That said, there are good quality castings coming out of China (especially in the northern districts) and also unbelievably poor castings also coming from China, Taiwan, India, Pakistan, etc. Knowing how to buy the raw goods is key.

There are companies that spend sometimes over $100k and 12 months getting their systems, quality manual and auditing procedures sorted out before they earn their ISO TS16949 qualification. There are also plenty of factories around the world with certificates hanging on the wall that were purchased from one of the companies in Hong Kong that sells them for $800 -- and never even visits the factory! Unless you know what the situation is with each factory you are concerned about, you really have no earthly idea what type of quality to expect.

Are the best brake rotor castings coming out of China right now? No, not particularly. Yet, you can get very good castings made over there if you are willing to jump through the necessary hoops. Huge brake companies such as Brembo, Akebono and more have set up factories there. None of the brakes you see on Evo's, STI's, 350Z's, etc., are made in Italy or the USA. But they have that cool looking logo!

I have purchased brake rotors from almost every supplier out there at one time or another for projects, production runs, lab testing, track testing and so on. One thing I've learned is that you cannot even look at one brand and say all their stuff is good. Many times you can figure out which suppliers have pretty bad stuff most of the time -- and know to stay away from them!!

I'm not privy to what ECS uses or even how they process them. Their descriptions here are a little generic, yet mostly on point. I may differ on a couple of minor points, but I'm not going to tell them how to go about their business (unless they pay me, of course ). I can say that since I've been directly responsible for probably over 50k high-performance rotors sets sold into the market worldwide that putting out consistently high-quality braking products is no trivial task. It requires a continuously vigorous effort, especially when suppliers tend to change things without much notice, even when supply contracts spell out how they should handle communication. Any aftermarket company suckered into offering a line of any ol' rotors just to fill up the "brakes" page on their web site will usually get what they deserve before too long. I cannot tell you if ECS is managing their product line using best practices or not, but if I wanted to find out, I would start by tracking down customers who have already purchased them and had run them for a while.

As far as disclosure is concerned (the OP's main gripe), U.S. law dictates a clear definition on what can be labeled a domestic product. If the American content is high enough, they can legally be called "American made". I assure everyone here that if raw castings are brought in from overseas, then finish machined (sometimes multiple operations), balanced, plated or coated, etc., then the raw casting represents a smaller percentage of the landed cost. Cast in China and finished in the USA can often result in an American-made part, at least by legal definition. This is a very important point when seeking US Customs duty reimbursement after exporting these types of parts out of the country. If you pay import duties on raw goods coming in then export finished goods back out, you are lawfully entitled to the return of said duties.

Add to these facts that there is (practically speaking) only one really good iron casting house left in the USA that is set up to make and sell brake rotor castings (using the ideal Disamatic process) to small aftermarket companies -- and they are justifiably expensive. Even those guys don't have tooling available for the thousands of part numbers needed to fill out a competitive line. To be in the brake business, you need to source castings from a variety of places just to get the applications. Unless, of course, you want to spend $10k-15k to tool up each new part number (at least 2 pattern sets per car for non-directional rotors), plus do a minimum first run of usually 2500 or more pieces. Get your checkbook ready!

Sorry to run on, but it is really unfortunate that in 2013 these discussions are still going on. If you are worried about parts being made in the far East, you will rather disappointed to know that nearly every new car sold anywhere in the world has at least some parts made over there. Yes, even our beloved BMW's!! Heck, the "most American made" pickup truck (according to part content and place of assembly) is the Toyota Tundra! Think about that next time you see a good ol' boy driving around in an F150.

If you like the ECS rotors, run them. If not, sell them. If you think they are a bomb ready to explode and other ECS customers have just been really, really lucky so far -- well, none of us here can really help you with that.

Chris
Brake Maven
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      02-08-2013, 05:43 AM   #62
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^ good conclusion to the thread. someone lock this bad boy
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      02-20-2013, 08:41 PM   #63
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I'm waiting for these bad boys to be shipped ill fill you guys in if I run into a brick wall at 150plus -___-
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      02-20-2013, 09:05 PM   #64
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Damn never heard such a fuss over saving money lol
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