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      12-03-2012, 08:56 PM   #1
RWD4Life
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BMW Doesn't Want My Money

Dear BMW,

I just wanted to tell you that the dealers you have contracted with in the New England area do not want my money and won't let me get the car of my dreams.

After negotiations, back and forth, phone calls and emails, I'm still waiting for said dealers to come back to me and finalize things. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

One reason things have been dragging on, I guess, is likely because they don't like to do business with informed consumers. Consumers that are knowledgable about interest rates, money factors, residuals, various fees ans such.

While your sales increased by 38% for November, I know that you are still racing against Mercedes for best sales this year. Since the winner of this race will remain undecided until the last days of December, can you really afford to lose customers? I don't think so. And in any case, no company would want to lose customers no matter the circumstances.

I hope this message finds you well and that you will fulfill my Christmas wish: I want a new and decent dealership for New England!
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      12-04-2012, 09:24 PM   #2
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bump
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      12-05-2012, 02:50 AM   #3
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Instead of wasting your time posting on internet forums why don't you contact BMW NA directlly... Here let me help you out:

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/ContactUs/

You usually get a better response if you contact the entity you have issues with directly. Sometimes you'll be surprised at the support you receive and well... Sometimes you won't.
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      12-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nkryptd1 View Post
Instead of wasting your time posting on internet forums why don't you contact BMW NA directlly... Here let me help you out:

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/ContactUs/

You usually get a better response if you contact the entity you have issues with directly. Sometimes you'll be surprised at the support you receive and well... Sometimes you won't.
I "waste" my time on forums because people like you are willing to help out. The reason I didn't contact BMW NA directly is because I thought they didn't have any real influence over dealers but just a simple business relationship. Your post made me reconsider this option. Thanks.
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      12-05-2012, 03:37 PM   #5
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      12-05-2012, 04:02 PM   #6
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thats pretty rediculous never heard of that happening to anyone
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      12-06-2012, 08:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan@UnitedBMW View Post
We'll order a car for you... if you like, PM me. I will point you in the right direction.
PM sent

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Originally Posted by 135IS View Post
thats pretty rediculous never heard of that happening to anyone
Well, now you have
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      12-06-2012, 09:11 AM   #8
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I sent you a PM. I hope it helps.
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      12-06-2012, 11:08 AM   #9
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stealerships are the worst
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      12-06-2012, 01:06 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by 135IS View Post
stealerships are the worst
+1,000,000
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      12-06-2012, 04:04 PM   #11
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Sorry to hear man. Good luck!
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      12-07-2012, 11:42 AM   #12
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I'll bet there's issues with financing / money.

I struggled with my sales guy at first. We kept going around and around.
Me: I like the car I want to buy it. How much?
Him: Sticker says xxx.
Me: So is that the price? No negotiation from sticker?
Him: I didn't say that. We have some room to negotiate.
Me: So how much can you offer me the car for?
Him: How much are you willing to pay? Make an offer and I'll go to the manager with it.
Me: $10
Him: Don't be ridiculous
Me: Just give me a price and I'll tell you if its ok (knowing the negotiating wasn't done but but I at least wanted a starting point).
Him: Tell me how much you want to pay.
Arggggg!!!

So I used this site to determine what people were generally paying. Seemed that $500-$1k over invoice was average with some paying more some less with incentives.
So I went back with a spreadsheet of the car and options, MSRP and invoice price for each and added $500 to the bottom line invoice price and said you want to know how much I'm willing to pay? Here you go, invoice +$ 500.

He went ot the manager and they whined but took it. They dinged me for a couple add-ons but I was still somewhere between $500-$1k over invoice so I was happy, especially on a car I ordered rather than one already on the lot.
After that things went great.

But getting through that initial negotiation was like a prostate exam.

Go in armed with facts and a fair price. If they won't do the deal see if someone else will.
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      12-07-2012, 04:43 PM   #13
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You probably have an unreasonable price in mind OP.
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      12-07-2012, 05:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoolin Montego View Post
You probably have an unreasonable price in mind OP.
+1 How about some details... and then we can all laugh about how dumb/not dumb you/stealership is/are. The forum is a great place to get a sanity check.
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      12-07-2012, 06:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoolin Montego View Post
You probably have an unreasonable price in mind OP.
No I didn't. We agreed upon 6.5% of MSRP which in this market is not "unreasonable" (see truecar.com for historical transactions)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purgatory View Post
+1 How about some details... and then we can all laugh about how dumb/not dumb you/stealership is/are. The forum is a great place to get a sanity check.
You are right. I should have given more background. Let me relate the conversations I had with the final dealer:

- Me: Want to lease a 1er
- Dealer: Ok. Do you have a price in mind?
- Me: I do, other dealers offered me 6% off MSRP and 22k on my trade. Can you beat that?
- Dealer (after back and forth BS with the Sales Manager): we can offer you 6.5% but not more because we don't make any money on the car. As for the trade we are at 22k as well.
- Me: I'll take it, although you still make money on the car since the MSRP is +7% on invoice and you get a kicker on the lease...
- Dealer: Ok, let's talk monthly payments. It would be $500/month with a down payment of $2,500
- Me: Ok, can you tell what is the MF, Residual and what the down payment is made of?
- Dealer (after back and forth BS with the Sales Manager): Sure. Here you go
- Me: there are couple of things not correct regarding your calculation. The MF is X, the Residual is Y and bank fees are Z (they all want to charge you $925 when it's actually $725 as advertised on BMW's website). Also what are those additional fees for (cap fee and cap taxes)?
- Dealer: let me go back to my sales manager
- Me (thinking): are they really serious with all that back and forth BS?
- Dealer: here you go, the payment is actually $490
- Me (thinking): "actually? well at least he tries to be honest, but I guess that's part of the game"
- Me: alright, let's see the details of the calculation. Yeah, I told you that I will pay the bank, documentation and dmv fees upfront (note that the other fees magically disappeared...). All in all we should be at $450.
- Dealer: This is already a great deal. I don't think we can do much better.
- Me: Oh the deal is great indeed, it's the just the monthly payment where we disagree. I'm sure we can work this out. Maybe there is something I'm doing wrong with my calculations. If you don't mind bringing your finance manager, he can probably walk me through this.
- Dealer: Ok
- Finance Manager: Here is how we calculate a lease payment...blah blah blah...
- Me: Oh ok. We actually do the same thing but in a slightly different way. So let me plug-in my numbers to your explanations. Here you go, $450.
- Finance Manager (thinking): yep, this one has done his homework...
- Finance Manager: yes, I guess it is $450
- Me: Great! Shall we shake hands on this?
- Dealer: Ok
- Me: I just need to have a quick conversation with the wife to make sure we are on the same base but I should give you the green light for ordering along with a deposit later today
- Dealer: that works for me

I sent an email 4 hours later to confirm everything was good and to this day, I never got a response. Honestly, I really don't know what happened...Either I scared them because I did my homework or they are making so much money on other customers that they don't need to bother with me...Either way that's just dishonest to shake hands and never call back. Yeah, call me naive, I still believe in shaking hands...

Does that answer all your suspicions?
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      12-07-2012, 06:44 PM   #16
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And you realize you posting on here does nothing for you as the forums are not affiliated with BMW NA.
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      12-07-2012, 06:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoolin Montego View Post
And you realize you posting on here does nothing for you as the forums are not affiliated with BMW NA.
It is actually doing something for me as several people on the forum have offered their help and that now I'm close to FINALLY close a deal
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      12-07-2012, 08:49 PM   #18
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Numbers such as the money factor, residual and bank fees are open information.
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      12-08-2012, 03:24 AM   #19
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Contact BMW, from my experience(In Australia) issues like you've described are taken very seriously. I am surprised your dealer has given you the run around. Have you communicated at all with the sales manager or dealer principle in person? That will get the best result IMO if the salesman looking after you is incompetent, which it seems like.
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      12-10-2012, 11:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWD4Life View Post
*leasing is awesome*
This is why I tell people to never lease. People don't understand cap cost, miss that they still need to negotiate the "sales" price of the car, what a money factor is, tend to think its ok to have extra $$$ fees since it is a lease, always have really big bank/lease aquisition fees, etc. They think leasing is cheaper and also as a magic slap-chop-like bonus gets you a new car every 3 years, when nothing could be further from the truth as far as your long-term financial health.

I used to work for a software company that dealt in this arena and supported some pieces that helped pencil both leases and traditional finance deals. Specifically I worked directly with finance managers on the product to make sure it calculated correctly. I was constantly amazed on how they'd shoe in bad rates, BS fee on top of BS fee, automark sales price to MSRP for cars that normally never did, etc. But consumers always think "monthly price". There were a few that seemed to be pretty honest and only defaulted a $500 lease aq. fee and defaulted to a MF that was reasonable, but a vast majority always defaulted new deals to horrid numbers.

I strongly suggest traditional finance for everyone. Leasing, unless you are an expert and come armed with your own laptop and a strong understanding of how it all fits together you are making yourself extremely vunerable.

So many people are so uninformed on this I think dealers just don't feel like bothering with people who know what they're talking about. Perhaps that's where RWD4Life's disconnect comes from.

Solution? Don't lease! If you buy, pay it off, sell, then buy again, you will eventually be driving a nicer car with a lesser payment than if you had been leasing the entire time. While a car is not really a great equity investment, there still is a huge chunk of equity left in a car after 3-5 years, enough to make a huge dent and downpayment into your next car. I think leasing is a trap, and a vast majority of consumers get hosed on them and don't even realize it due to the complexity.
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      12-10-2012, 11:53 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
This is why I tell people to never lease. People don't understand cap cost, miss that they still need to negotiate the "sales" price of the car, what a money factor is, tend to think its ok to have extra $$$ fees since it is a lease, always have really big bank/lease aquisition fees, etc. They think leasing is cheaper and also as a magic slap-chop-like bonus gets you a new car every 3 years, when nothing could be further from the truth as far as your long-term financial health.

I used to work for a software company that dealt in this arena and supported some pieces that helped pencil both leases and traditional finance deals. Specifically I worked directly with finance managers on the product to make sure it calculated correctly. I was constantly amazed on how they'd shoe in bad rates, BS fee on top of BS fee, automark sales price to MSRP for cars that normally never did, etc. But consumers always think "monthly price". There were a few that seemed to be pretty honest and only defaulted a $500 lease aq. fee and defaulted to a MF that was reasonable, but a vast majority always defaulted new deals to horrid numbers.

I strongly suggest traditional finance for everyone. Leasing, unless you are an expert and come armed with your own laptop and a strong understanding of how it all fits together you are making yourself extremely vunerable.

So many people are so uninformed on this I think dealers just don't feel like bothering with people who know what they're talking about. Perhaps that's where RWD4Life's disconnect comes from.

Solution? Don't lease! If you buy, pay it off, sell, then buy again, you will eventually be driving a nicer car with a lesser payment than if you had been leasing the entire time. While a car is not really a great equity investment, there still is a huge chunk of equity left in a car after 3-5 years, enough to make a huge dent and downpayment into your next car. I think leasing is a trap, and a vast majority of consumers get hosed on them and don't even realize it due to the complexity.
Thanks for you comments, I think you have valid points. However if you carefully read what I wrote, you will find that one of the reasons I think the dealer never got back to me is because I did my homework too well. I know what I'm getting myself into if I decide to lease. Also try not to put words into people's mouth next time you want to get your point across. I never said lease is awesome. But it is in effect an alternative that should be carefully considered in comparison to financing.
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      12-10-2012, 12:37 PM   #22
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you sir...will be at my next car purchase.
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