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      12-10-2012, 01:26 PM   #23
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The "leasing is awesome" was meant as a joke. What I cut out was all the crazy back and forth with F&I over lease terms. It's just bonkers.

Yes, you are one of the few who understands leasing and has his/her spreadsheets in order before going to the dealer. I completely agree, you did your homework too well, and compared to all the other schmucks the dealer may have realized they weren't going to get away with murder on your deal. My post wasn't meant as any sort of critique to your situation or comments, but more of commentary on leasing in general and a warning to others who are considering leasing.

I regularly recommend to family and friends to buy, but often several days later they come back and say "well I got a lease, my monthly payment is so low!" They don't realize what is really happening. Meanwhile, I sold my old car after 6 years of ownership and 5 years of paying, was able to put almost 50% down on my more expensive BMW, and still have a shorter 4-year loan and lower mopnthly payment, all while my friends are still leasing their Hondas indefinitely...
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      12-10-2012, 01:51 PM   #24
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The "leasing is awesome" was meant as a joke. What I cut out was all the crazy back and forth with F&I over lease terms. It's just bonkers.

Yes, you are one of the few who understands leasing and has his/her spreadsheets in order before going to the dealer. I completely agree, you did your homework too well, and compared to all the other schmucks the dealer may have realized they weren't going to get away with murder on your deal. My post wasn't meant as any sort of critique to your situation or comments, but more of commentary on leasing in general and a warning to others who are considering leasing.

I regularly recommend to family and friends to buy, but often several days later they come back and say "well I got a lease, my monthly payment is so low!" They don't realize what is really happening. Meanwhile, I sold my old car after 6 years of ownership and 5 years of paying, was able to put almost 50% down on my more expensive BMW, and still have a shorter 4-year loan and lower mopnthly payment, all while my friends are still leasing their Hondas indefinitely...
Sorry Freon. I should have read between the lines. I guess I'm not thinking clearly lately and I'm being oversensitive about this whole situation. I just don't understand why a company would make it so difficult for one of its prospective customers to buy something from it...I just want to drive a new shiny BMW after all...
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      12-10-2012, 02:28 PM   #25
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Always pay cash.
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      12-10-2012, 06:16 PM   #26
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No I didn't. We agreed upon 6.5% of MSRP which in this market is not "unreasonable" (see truecar.com for historical transactions)



You are right. I should have given more background. Let me relate the conversations I had with the final dealer:

- Me: Want to lease a 1er
- Dealer: Ok. Do you have a price in mind?
- Me: I do, other dealers offered me 6% off MSRP and 22k on my trade. Can you beat that?
- Dealer (after back and forth BS with the Sales Manager): we can offer you 6.5% but not more because we don't make any money on the car. As for the trade we are at 22k as well.
- Me: I'll take it, although you still make money on the car since the MSRP is +7% on invoice and you get a kicker on the lease...
- Dealer: Ok, let's talk monthly payments. It would be $500/month with a down payment of $2,500
- Me: Ok, can you tell what is the MF, Residual and what the down payment is made of?
- Dealer (after back and forth BS with the Sales Manager): Sure. Here you go
- Me: there are couple of things not correct regarding your calculation. The MF is X, the Residual is Y and bank fees are Z (they all want to charge you $925 when it's actually $725 as advertised on BMW's website). Also what are those additional fees for (cap fee and cap taxes)?
- Dealer: let me go back to my sales manager
- Me (thinking): are they really serious with all that back and forth BS?
- Dealer: here you go, the payment is actually $490
- Me (thinking): "actually? well at least he tries to be honest, but I guess that's part of the game"
- Me: alright, let's see the details of the calculation. Yeah, I told you that I will pay the bank, documentation and dmv fees upfront (note that the other fees magically disappeared...). All in all we should be at $450.
- Dealer: This is already a great deal. I don't think we can do much better.
- Me: Oh the deal is great indeed, it's the just the monthly payment where we disagree. I'm sure we can work this out. Maybe there is something I'm doing wrong with my calculations. If you don't mind bringing your finance manager, he can probably walk me through this.
- Dealer: Ok
- Finance Manager: Here is how we calculate a lease payment...blah blah blah...
- Me: Oh ok. We actually do the same thing but in a slightly different way. So let me plug-in my numbers to your explanations. Here you go, $450.
- Finance Manager (thinking): yep, this one has done his homework...
- Finance Manager: yes, I guess it is $450
- Me: Great! Shall we shake hands on this?
- Dealer: Ok
- Me: I just need to have a quick conversation with the wife to make sure we are on the same base but I should give you the green light for ordering along with a deposit later today
- Dealer: that works for me

I sent an email 4 hours later to confirm everything was good and to this day, I never got a response. Honestly, I really don't know what happened...Either I scared them because I did my homework or they are making so much money on other customers that they don't need to bother with me...Either way that's just dishonest to shake hands and never call back. Yeah, call me naive, I still believe in shaking hands...

Does that answer all your suspicions?
Just to tease you... (since I used to be in sales)... Why did you have to get all the money arranged down to the Dollar BEFORE asking your wife?

I am sure that with all this, they put you in the " BE BACK " folder... " have to ask my wife... " LOL..
perhaps the sales man is asking *his* wife if he can sell you a car ...

It would seem that a prospective buyer would ask the wife BEFORE going to talk numbers on a purchase...

Good luck with the transaction however..
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Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 12-10-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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      12-10-2012, 06:26 PM   #27
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great posts here i hope i dont run into the same thing when i go to buy one.
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      12-10-2012, 07:43 PM   #28
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It is actually doing something for me as several people on the forum have offered their help and that now I'm close to FINALLY close a deal
Well, I've learned quite a bit from your details of what happened. Now I know I won't get effed over next time I negotiate with BMW/any other dealerships.
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      12-10-2012, 07:51 PM   #29
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Just to tease you... (since I used to be in sales)... Why did you have to get all the money arranged down to the Dollar BEFORE asking your wife?

I am sure that with all this, they put you in the " BE BACK " folder... " have to ask my wife... " LOL..
perhaps the sales man is asking *his* wife if he can sell you a car ...

It would seem that a prospective buyer would ask the wife BEFORE going to talk numbers on a purchase...

Good luck with the transaction however..
What can I say, she runs the show. At least I admit it. Anyway, thanks for the laugh, I needed that after a shitty day
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      12-10-2012, 07:53 PM   #30
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Well, I've learned quite a bit from your details of what happened. Now I know I won't get effed over next time I negotiate with BMW/any other dealerships.
Happy to help!
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      12-10-2012, 09:24 PM   #31
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How exactly did you scare them? Sounds like they had second thoughts after you left and felt they could make more off someone else.
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      12-11-2012, 10:26 AM   #32
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Your conversation sounds exactly the same as mine with my dealer over email. I wasn't in a big rush so time wasn't an issue for me. Just be patient and you'll get what you want. I had it all planned out on a spreadsheet as well and in the end their number was 10 dollars more than my number which I guess I didn't care too much about the 10 bucks a month. I started the conversation around the first week of December and the car finally got ordered & finalized right before Christmas last year. They aren't used to people being knowledgeable about leases I don't imagine so they don't have all the answers right in front of them. The majority of people just care about how much they need to put down and how much is their monthly payment, then they negotiate the monthly payment and not the total price of the car.

If you want the car.. just be patient. You'll get it.
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      12-11-2012, 11:50 AM   #33
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If you want the car.. just be patient. You'll get it.
Patience is the word indeed.
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      12-11-2012, 05:57 PM   #34
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Keep in mind that you are also nickle and dimming them on their entry level car.
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      12-11-2012, 06:08 PM   #35
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Keep in mind that you are also nickle and dimming them on their entry level car. I have a friend who works at a dealership and he has a name for these folks - "waste of time".

Worst thing in the world, according to him, is getting stuck with a know it all and missing out on the clients walking in and picking up a 7 series or X5 who aren't interested in squabbling over $10 and month.
Interesting. I suggest your friend do one of two things:
1) Get a job at Rolls-Royce. It shouldn't be too difficult since it's the same company
or
2) Stay at BMW and learn what Customer Lifetime Value (CLTV) means. That concept is even more important to have in mind when selling the 1er
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      12-11-2012, 07:27 PM   #36
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Keep in mind that you are also nickle and dimming them on their entry level car.
I guess I see what you're saying, but some of us work our asses off to afford an "entry level car" and thus will shop intelligently for it. Some people (like me) have "entry level cars" as their dream cars. What of it? Does that mean I should just bend over and not negotiate? Or that the OP shouldn't be an informed customer? Your post, in a nutshell, is exactly why BMW dealerships make me absolutely cringe. I was lucky to find a good one, but that was the exception and not the rule.

Continuing your logic, would it be acceptable to "nickle and dime" on a flagship if not an entry level car? Wouldn't your comment then be, "stop nickle and diming them on such an expensive car - you can afford it." I'm thinking there is no logical end to your thought or comment, though it might have sounded good to yourself when you typed it.

OP - keep shopping, someone out there knows how to do business and keep customers for the future .
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      12-11-2012, 07:32 PM   #37
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I guess I see what you're saying, but some of us work our asses off to afford an "entry level car" and thus will shop intelligently for it. Some people (like me) have "entry level cars" as their dream cars. What of it? Does that mean I should just bend over and not negotiate? Or that the OP shouldn't be an informed customer? Your post, in a nutshell, is exactly why BMW dealerships make me absolutely cringe. I was lucky to find a good one, but that was the exception and not the rule.

Continuing your logic, would it be acceptable to "nickle and dime" on a flagship if not an entry level car? Wouldn't your comment then be, "stop nickle and diming them on such an expensive car - you can afford it." I'm thinking there is no logical end to your thought or comment, though it might have sounded good to yourself when you typed it.

OP - keep shopping, someone out there knows how to do business and keep customers for the future .
That's what I'm talking about (in case I needed another proof that I'm not crazy)!
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      12-11-2012, 09:25 PM   #38
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I guess I see what you're saying, but some of us work our asses off to afford an "entry level car" and thus will shop intelligently for it. Some people (like me) have "entry level cars" as their dream cars. What of it? Does that mean I should just bend over and not negotiate? Or that the OP shouldn't be an informed customer? Your post, in a nutshell, is exactly why BMW dealerships make me absolutely cringe. I was lucky to find a good one, but that was the exception and not the rule.

Continuing your logic, would it be acceptable to "nickle and dime" on a flagship if not an entry level car? Wouldn't your comment then be, "stop nickle and diming them on such an expensive car - you can afford it." I'm thinking there is no logical end to your thought or comment, though it might have sounded good to yourself when you typed it.

OP - keep shopping, someone out there knows how to do business and keep customers for the future .
It's simple, people with money don't sweat it like you, therefore your point about nickle and diming a flag ship car is moot. You step into a luxury car dealership then you step into their world, subjective and unfair as you might think it is. That sales person, 99% of the time, is all about the money. Or, money talks and everyone else walks. Case in point.
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      12-11-2012, 09:27 PM   #39
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Interesting. I suggest your friend do one of two things:
1) Get a job at Rolls-Royce. It shouldn't be too difficult since it's the same company
or
2) Stay at BMW and learn what Customer Lifetime Value (CLTV) means. That concept is even more important to have in mind when selling the 1er
You give car salesmen way too much credit.
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      12-11-2012, 09:57 PM   #40
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Keep in mind that you are also nickle and dimming them on their entry level car.
But even at entry level.. $45,000 is ALOT of money.. Which makes it not so entry level and a lot of our dreams to own these cars which we work our asses off for. I think it's perfectly acceptable to go in knowledgable and tear apart their payment to the dollar, especially when there are resources out there like TrueCar.
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      12-11-2012, 10:03 PM   #41
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But even at entry level.. $45,000 is ALOT of money.. Which makes it not so entry level and a lot of our dreams to own these cars which we work our asses off for. I think it's perfectly acceptable to go in knowledgable and tear apart their payment to the dollar, especially when there are resources out there like TrueCar.
Totally agree. Just don't be shocked when your not treated well by every sales person you meet.
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      12-11-2012, 10:24 PM   #42
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Contact BMW, from my experience(In Australia) issues like you've described are taken very seriously. I am surprised your dealer has given you the run around. Have you communicated at all with the sales manager or dealer principle in person? That will get the best result IMO if the salesman looking after you is incompetent, which it seems like.
Interesting coming from your side. Most complaints we see in the forum are of the larger dealerships and the BMW owned ones. I am glad I have moved away from them but chose a family run dealership - much easier to deal with. May be it is actually good that those big dealership doesn't offer service as good as the small ones .

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2) Stay at BMW and learn what Customer Lifetime Value (CLTV) means. That concept is even more important to have in mind when selling the 1er
+1 on this. A large dealership lost my business three years ago, because one of their new staff made me go through an experience that would be only fit for buying a Toyota (my usual sales was away that day). He is only interested in dealing with me if I am buying that day, mind you I have already bought two cars from this dealership. We bought two cars the week after from the local dealership, much closer to home and another two cars last year. In terms of time for each transaction for the last two cars - negotiation now involves a couple of emails without the massive 2 hrs marathon of the SA walking in and out of sales manager office - basically very little "sales" time required.
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      12-12-2012, 01:55 AM   #43
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great back and forth ill keep both things in mind when shopping next spring
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      12-12-2012, 07:20 AM   #44
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Totally agree. Just don't be shocked when your not treated well by every sales person you meet.
Yes, that's fair enough. I never said I was shocked, just irks me.

But your generalization above about "people with money" and how they behave might be true for you and in your experience, but it's not true in mine. I'll stop short of making a comment on an entire population of people - feel free to keep doing so.

And since you're so interested in lecturing on how one should buy a car, perhaps I should lecture you on what a "moot" (open to debate) point is. Thank you for declaring what I already knew - the point is indeed moot, which is why we are discussing it.
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