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      01-07-2013, 10:26 PM   #1
PyratOne
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1M S65 swap. What would it take?

Its cold here in New England and Im not driving the 1M. So, I come here to get my fix. Sweet BSM pix by 'bmw13'. Track video from 'Blue55'. Thanks guys.


Also, I daydream of sweet S65 possibilities in the 1M- that glorious scream. I can only imagine what that engine would be like in a shorter wheelbase 1M. We've seen the Frankenstein from Egypt (1er converted to 1M with S65 - a drifting monster indeed). We've also seen the G-Power boosted S65 in the 1M. Wow! Not my taste, but wow. Those are the only two I know of
This thread is a thought exercise about what would it (really) take to transplant an S65 into the 1M?



The S65 motor itself
1) where to find one? www.realoem.com for new
2) weight difference. Weight pretty close to N54, no? But the S65 is shorter and placed back more center. And what is the true weight difference taking into account ancillary coolers, turbos, etc of the N54.
2) cost used? Edit 1/12/12: looks like used S65 might be had for $8K-$10K, but depends on engine history

3) cost new? How would you even get new? Edit 1/12/12: www.realoem.com has list price for S65

Realoem S65 from a E92 ("short engine")
01 Rmfd short engine S65B40A 1 11000442124 $23,885.95


6MT gearbox
01 Rmfd-6 speed gearbox GS6-53DZ - TJGC 1 23002283601 $4,468.06


4) B40 vs B44? Is B44 even attainable?


The N54
5) selling the N54: whats the market value of a slightly used N54?

Misc issues
6) wiring, coding, MDM, M-button
7) Brakes OK?
8) driving dynamics

The shop
9) what kinds of shops would do this work?


Justifcation: pros and cons
go ahead and write "why?", "its stupid", "pointless", "not what was intended for 1M" - but explain why



thanks for helping me through the winter doldrums
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Last edited by PyratOne; 01-13-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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      01-07-2013, 10:35 PM   #2
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Ive done this thought exercise from time to time too. The S65 weighs a shade under 15 kilos more than the N54. But its lower and further back.

My logic goes like this. Both engines were designed for the 3 series chassis. So why would it be difficult to interchange anything? Theoretically its a straight swap. Maybe a hammer needs to be taken to the floor pan and maybe 1 or two clearances are off...but in my head it seems simple.

Find an M3 that was totaled with a rear end collision or a rollover and start from there.
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      01-07-2013, 10:41 PM   #3
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Google brings up a lot of S65 for sale but the ones I find a B40s
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=373552 for example
S65 202 kg (445 lb)
N54 195 kg Both according to wiki
so negligible difference weight-wise.

Best of luck if you go through with it, you will likely also need new ecu units specific to the engine if I am not mistaken.
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      01-07-2013, 10:55 PM   #4
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other than sound I can't see any benefits?

it's heavier, it's definitely down on tuning capacity (aside from a $20k S/C kit of course), >300KW and 600Nm is not too difficult on a N55 after all.

I did like my M3 though


oh yeh, then you have screwed the resale on the 1M well and truly.
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      01-07-2013, 11:10 PM   #5
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good stuff already!

Two opinions on weight difference. I wonder if the reported numbers are the block? The turbos/intercooler included in reported weight of N54?


Just to be clear, Im not doing this swap. I dont have deep pockets like you guys. I busted the bank to get a stripper!
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      01-07-2013, 11:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineM3E92 View Post
other than sound I can't see any benefits?

it's heavier, it's definitely down on tuning capacity (aside from a $20k S/C kit of course), >300KW and 600Nm is not too difficult on a N55 after all.

I did like my M3 though


oh yeh, then you have screwed the resale on the 1M well and truly.
you miss dancing on the high revs?
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      01-07-2013, 11:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineM3E92 View Post
other than sound I can't see any benefits?
+1 Why mess with a near perfect car... rather buy an M3 and sell the 1M
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      01-07-2013, 11:49 PM   #8
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I say drive it till warranty runs out and then swap turbos for bigger ones

Costs $4-$5k all includes 550-600 hp and 700 tq, add an exhaust 3.5k and you have a monster of course you will need tires and brakes to match but power wise nothing will come close for that kind of money
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      01-08-2013, 06:43 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PyratOne View Post
We've seen the Frankenstein from Egypt (1er converted to 1M with S65 - a drifting monster indeed). We've also seen the G-Power boosted S65 in the 1M. Wow! Not my taste, but wow. Those are the only two I know of.
Here they are:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=662836
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=768098

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian///M View Post
+1 Why mess with a near perfect car... rather buy an M3 and sell the 1M
+2

Blowing the configuration out of proportion: sometimes it simply becomes overkill. Don't know if driving is still fun if keeping all the power under control becomes a permanent mission for yourself and all strained car parts. Furthermore, if used on public roads, expect issues with the car insurer.

Going hyperbolic: this M5 was turned into a 913hp monster:
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      01-08-2013, 08:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Z- View Post
I say drive it till warranty runs out and then swap turbos for bigger ones

Costs $4-$5k all includes 550-600 hp and 700 tq, add an exhaust 3.5k and you have a monster of course you will need tires and brakes to match but power wise nothing will come close for that kind of money
You cant do that on an N54.

You hit the fuel delivery capacity of the car pretty quickly. People have been trying a supplemental port injection system, but properly tuning the port injection and direct injection simultaneously has proved to be tricky and most have dropped their development programs.


There also isnt a lot of room under the hood. I doubt you could fit bigger turbos, its all very tight on the bottom end. All of the current options are simply turbines that are designed to be more efficient at high boost levels. Or boring outs of the stock housing.
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      01-08-2013, 04:43 PM   #11
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It's my feeling that the M3 and 1M deserve each others' motors.

The 1M has a short wheel base, is light (relative to M3), and has huge torque and turbo lag (minimal - but it exists). This makes for an exciting driver, that is great at stop light jumps, and sideways shananigans - and tons fun on track. However, as Randy Pobst (ducking now) will tell you it makes for a tricky car to drive consistently quickly.

The M3 deserves the torque advantage to aid in low gear acceleration to overcome its extra pork.

The 1M deserves the progressive power delivery and biased towards high revs. This would make it easier to drive the 1M smoothly. The short wheelbase can be pretty easily upset on corner exit w/ the n54, but shift the power up in the band, and give the driver razor sharp throttle control - and the 1M would be fun, fast AND controllable.

I personally would LOVE and s65 in my 1M.
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      01-08-2013, 05:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahlzeit View Post
It's my feeling that the M3 and 1M deserve each others' motors.

The 1M has a short wheel base, is light (relative to M3), and has huge torque and turbo lag (minimal - but it exists). This makes for an exciting driver, that is great at stop light jumps, and sideways shananigans - and tons fun on track. However, as Randy Pobst (ducking now) will tell you it makes for a tricky car to drive consistently quickly.

The M3 deserves the torque advantage to aid in low gear acceleration to overcome its extra pork.

The 1M deserves the progressive power delivery and biased towards high revs. This would make it easier to drive the 1M smoothly. The short wheelbase can be pretty easily upset on corner exit w/ the n54, but shift the power up in the band, and give the driver razor sharp throttle control - and the 1M would be fun, fast AND controllable.

I personally would LOVE and s65 in my 1M.
I respect your logic. A lot. It really makes sense when you put it like that and if 1M would come with s65 I doubt I would hate it, even a bit. However, I am not sure if a 335is was a better car than E90 M3 and in fact wouldn't the 1M be just a shorter wheel base M3 and nothing else if we switch the engines?

I think what gives the 1M most of its own character is this massaged N54 and maybe it is not that much of a bad thing that the car is neither super easy to control nor silk smooth. It's all part of what it is.

Let me put it like that. though not a perfect analogy, more or less was like this: when they asked American novelist (best US writer imho) William Faulkner which one of his books he likes most he replies "The Sound and the Fury" and when they ask why that, he says, that's the most flawed one, but also the one that I put most work in it and I love it like a mother loving her crippled child which in turn needs her love more than the others.

All I want to say is maybe it doesn't need to be too perfect.
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      01-08-2013, 05:42 PM   #13
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You'd never get the swap to pass emissions in CA or many other states. It would essentially become a 'track only' car and you would devalue it so much as to make it unsalable.
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      01-08-2013, 06:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue55 View Post
You'd never get the swap to pass emissions in CA or many other states. It would essentially become a 'track only' car and you would devalue it so much as to make it unsalable.
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/emissions.htm
http://www.ehow.com/list_7168251_cal...swap-laws.html
"An engine change involves swapping a car engine with another that is not identical, under California law. The state insists that the newly-installed block must be the same age or newer than the one coming out of the car. It must be from the same type of vehicle, such as a passenger car or light duty truck. If the car is California-certified then the engine going in to the car must also be California-certified. Car owners must make sure an engine change does not increase pollution levels, according to California's Air Resources Board. Car owners must submit their car for inspection after an engine change takes place. This is carried out at a state referee station where the vehicle is subject to an emissions test and checked to see that all required equipment is where it should be under California law."
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      01-08-2013, 09:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahlzeit View Post
It's my feeling that the M3 and 1M deserve each others' motors.

The 1M has a short wheel base, is light (relative to M3), and has huge torque and turbo lag (minimal - but it exists). This makes for an exciting driver, that is great at stop light jumps, and sideways shananigans - and tons fun on track. However, as Randy Pobst (ducking now) will tell you it makes for a tricky car to drive consistently quickly.

The M3 deserves the torque advantage to aid in low gear acceleration to overcome its extra pork.

The 1M deserves the progressive power delivery and biased towards high revs. This would make it easier to drive the 1M smoothly. The short wheelbase can be pretty easily upset on corner exit w/ the n54, but shift the power up in the band, and give the driver razor sharp throttle control - and the 1M would be fun, fast AND controllable.

I personally would LOVE and s65 in my 1M.
+1
I'd take the S65 any day. Randy makes valid points for track use. Unfortunately, the majority of 1Ms will never set foot on a track.
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      01-08-2013, 11:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
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You cant do that on an N54.

You hit the fuel delivery capacity of the car pretty quickly. People have been trying a supplemental port injection system, but properly tuning the port injection and direct injection simultaneously has proved to be tricky and most have dropped their development programs.


There also isnt a lot of room under the hood. I doubt you could fit bigger turbos, its all very tight on the bottom end. All of the current options are simply turbines that are designed to be more efficient at high boost levels. Or boring outs of the stock housing.
Speakng of turbos.

Whats the shelf life? 100K miles?

Whats the approx cost to replace?
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      01-09-2013, 12:11 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineM3E92 View Post
other than sound I can't see any benefits?

it's heavier, it's definitely down on tuning capacity (aside from a $20k S/C kit of course), >300KW and 600Nm is not too difficult on a N55 after all.

I did like my M3 though


oh yeh, then you have screwed the resale on the 1M well and truly.
Supercharge the S65
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      01-09-2013, 09:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Speakng of turbos.

Whats the shelf life? 100K miles?

Whats the approx cost to replace?
I hope the shelf life is more than 100K. I'm at 85 now. :lol :
I'm going into it thinking theyre just one of those parts that fail when they fail and their life is entirely based on how you treated them.

That being said I had my wastegates replaced a few mo ths ago under the warranty and the borescoped my turbos to make sure they were ok. No oil leakage and the turbines look fresh. So I think they have a lot of life in em considering ive been running a mild tune for years.


The turbos are $600 each. That gives you new headers as the turbo housing is cast into the headers. My only guess on price comes from when my injectors failed (also on the bottom of the motor) that ended up costing me about $1100 in labour.I would think the turbo job would be somewhere in that range too.




And another thought. Send the S65 to Dinan before you drop it in the 1er. Its something like 550/420 aspirated if I remember right.
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      01-09-2013, 09:16 AM   #19
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Supercharge the S65
Then also supercharge the 1M fuel tank capacity (53 liter | 14 U.S. gal | 11.6 imp. gal).
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      01-09-2013, 11:18 AM   #20
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BV,

have you heard about Vargas turbo upgrade? Stage 2 or Stage 3 upgrade specifically for N54?

There are concerns but people already placing pre-orders
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      01-09-2013, 11:43 AM   #21
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BV,

have you heard about Vargas turbo upgrade? Stage 2 or Stage 3 upgrade specifically for N54?

There are concerns but people already placing pre-orders
Weve had so many failed turbo kits that people put money on only for the company to vanish after 6 months over the years...I never trust any of it.
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      01-09-2013, 11:52 AM   #22
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Vargas is in business for a quite some time and is a respected company. Just don't tell people it can't be done.
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