M3 front control arms (Upper and lower) - A couple of $hundred less than everywhere

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

You just wrote the exact definition of a factory second.

They aren't taken off the line randomly. They were taken off the line because they aren't up to spec. Just because you aren't aware of how they failed testing doesn't mean that there weren't determined to be not good enough.

Indeed.

The indy I go to won't install parts from ECS/pelician/etc. No OEM, only OE (as in from a BMW dealer like getbmwparts or bmwpartsstore) because he's tired of having issues with the parts and having his labor blamed for it. They're cheaper for a reason. Sometime they work flawlessly and you get a good deal. Other times there's an issue.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

You just wrote the exact definition of a factory second.

They aren't taken off the line randomly. They were taken off the line because they aren't up to spec. Just because you aren't aware of how they failed testing doesn't mean that there weren't determined to be not good enough.

re-read what i posted.. they are COMPLETELY up to spec

the definition of a factory second is a lower quality part that is sold at a lower price to recoup costs

what i wrote:

"they're 100% guaranteed not 'factory seconds', they're parts that otherwise would have been installed on an M3, no cherry picking, no defects." (at least no more defects than their could be in purchasing directly from BMW)

read through the thread, TRW and all the other vendors, as mentioned, guaranteed they were fully up to spec not defective items, as they do not cherry pick... They're off the same production line destined for M3's, just not actually installed in them.. if you read the posts containing emails, you'll find if they willingly sell defective products without stating that they are in fact factory seconds, that's somewhat illegal.. as there are certain safety issues, and lawsuits that would ensue

They're sold OEM for profit reasons, not loss-mitigation.. they can guarantee to sell X for M3's straight to BMW, that's good guaranteed profits.. but if you could also sell Y to the aftermarket, and repairs.. It's poor business not to.. Especially as you're probably making a larger profit per sale on the directly sold components.

yeah, the occasional arm could be defective

but so could one installed on an M3, or sold directly by BMW.

Add to that, the TRW items are fully warranted like anything else.

Originally Posted by Obioban

Indeed.

The indy I go to won't install parts from ECS/pelician/etc. No OEM, only OE (as in from a BMW dealer like getbmwparts or bmwpartsstore) because he's tired of having issues with the parts and having his labor blamed for it. They're cheaper for a reason. Sometime they work flawlessly and you get a good deal. Other times there an issue.

that sound like bs to me... you know 99% of the stuff both ECS and pelican sells are OEBMW, not OEM... right? they're (OEBMW parts) only usually slightly cheaper from them due to bulk purchasing.. and the reason the TRW parts are cheaper i more than likely they sell them even CHEAPER in bulk to BMW, they're probably themselves making more of a profit on the directly sold TRW stuff rather than the TRWBMW parts.. we all should know that BMW has a MASSIVE markup on their parts, some dealers more than others..

that's just like saying 'nah i wouldn't purchase the struts from bilstein because they're OEM not OEBMW" when you know it would be perfect from bilstein... or 'nah i wouldn't purchase the calipers and rotors directly from brembo because theyre OEM'

they're properly silly statements to make lol

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by flinchy

that sound like bs to me... you know 99% of the stuff both ECS and pelican sells are OEBMW, not OEM... right? they're (OEBMW parts) only usually slightly cheaper from them due to bulk purchasing.. and the reason the TRW parts are cheaper i more than likely they sell them even CHEAPER in bulk to BMW, they're probably themselves making more of a profit on the directly sold TRW stuff rather than the TRWBMW parts.. we all should know that BMW has a MASSIVE markup on their parts, some dealers more than others..

that's just like saying 'nah i wouldn't purchase the struts from bilstein because they're OEM not OEBMW" when you know it would be perfect from bilstein... or 'nah i wouldn't purchase the calipers and rotors directly from brembo because theyre OEM'

they're properly silly statements to make lol

I would buy bilstein struts, but I wouldn't buy struts that bilstein made, sent to bmw, BMW rejected, and then blistein scratched out the BMW logo and resold.

Believe whatever makes you happy. If they worked out, then you won the OEM parts lottery this round and got a good deal.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I would buy bilstein struts, but I wouldn't buy struts that bilstein made, sent to bmw, BMW rejected, and then blistein scratched out the BMW logo and resold.

Believe whatever makes you happy. If they worked out, then you won the OEM parts lottery this round and got a good deal.

well yeah, neither would I.

the only reason the control arms have the ///M logo is they're cast, it's not economical to have 2 casts, one for aftermarket (which TRW does LOT of in general btw).. one for OE.

So if bilstein sells them not-rejected, but has to scratch out the BMW logos because it's not legal for them to sell with it? :/.. If bilstein sold defective units (you know, not meeting TUV approval etc.) they would be in SO much trouble, and it's the same deal with TRW. if they were defective by law there has to be a 'for offroad use only' or something to that effect.

i don't understand why anyone would think the same companies products would potentially suck simply because you're buying them directly, rather than a third party (which is worse to me actually)

as far as i know ECS hasn't had any returns yet? and they've sold a solid volume of them.


It's really not hard to believe that OEM = the same parts as OEBMW or OEMB or anything like that.. without a sacrifice in quality

if you're talking an aftermarket OEM, i could understand where the hesitation would come from (say.. meyle or lemforder or something, while they DO make OE parts for other cars/makes/models, they don't for BMW so FITMENT could be an issue for example)

[Dackelone]

The OE (BMW) vs OEM (aftermarket) argument is something I brought up pages ago. There is a difference. What that difference is... we will not know until these parts get some miles on them and wear out or fail.

Originally Posted by flinchy

if you're talking an aftermarket OEM, i could understand where the hesitation would come from (say.. meyle or lemforder or something, while they DO make OE parts for other cars/makes/models, they don't for BMW so FITMENT could be an issue for example)

Meyle and Lemforder DO make suspension parts for BMW's. Even for our 1er models. Not sure what you were talking about Flinchy. ?

Generally speaking... Lemforder is of better quality than say Meyle. But a BMW (dealer) sold suspension part is of better quality. EVEN if it is made by one of those companies! Like I said... there IS a difference.


I really do not know what the difference is with these TRW parts. I am curious to see someone run them for say 40K miles and report back!

[mlifxs]

I installed these recently. No complaints. Time will tell if they are as good quality as OE.

I think the seconds argument is plausible but there are other plausible explanations example BMW negotiated exclusivity with TRW for x number of years. How long have these TRW arms been available?

I think the bottom line is nobody really knows except TRW.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by mlifxs

...How long have these TRW arms been available?

e92 M3 has been built since July, 2006 acording to RealOEM.com

Originally Posted by mlifxs

I think the bottom line is nobody really knows except TRW.

And... BMW.

[BMW86]

I don't know for sure if these parts are factory seconds, but I'm fairly certain they are the same part.

I did some searches on TRW and they are legit company http://www.trw.com/who_we_are

TRW Automotive is among the world's largest automotive suppliers and is one of the top financial performers in the industry, with 2011 sales of $16.2 billion. We are passionate about delivering the safety that everyone deserves.

supplies more than 40 major vehicle manufacturers and 250 nameplates
holds leading positions in all of its primary product categories

I don't think a company raking in $16.2 billion in a single year is going to shaft us with factory seconds. Just my 5 cents.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

The OE (BMW) vs OEM (aftermarket) argument is something I brought up pages ago. There is a difference. What that difference is... we will not know until these parts get some miles on them and wear out or fail.






Meyle and Lemforder DO make suspension parts for BMW's. Even for our 1er models. Not sure what you were talking about Flinchy. ?

Generally speaking... Lemforder is of better quality than say Meyle. But a BMW (dealer) sold suspension part is of better quality. EVEN if it is made by one of those companies! Like I said... there IS a difference.


I really do not know what the difference is with these TRW parts. I am curious to see someone run them for say 40K miles and report back!

I mean that say.. they may make a control arm, or a sway bar, that CAN be used on 1ers, but they're not the BMW OEM, they're an aftermarket OEM for that particular part... TRW for example makes the OEM BMW part (control arms), therefore i'd assume that that particular part from that particular company, would be better (or at least more exacting to BMW's specifications) than that same part from another company.

Meyle HD makes.. i believe sway bars or tie rods or something?.. another company may make the same part, but i would prefer the OE BMW supplier, unless i could guarantee the other manufacturing to be superior.

[BMW86]

Getting mine fitted right now. Apparently there is a small nut missing for the headlight regulating rod.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by BMW86

Getting mine fitted right now. Apparently there is a small nut missing for the headlight regulating rod.

the nuts weren't supplied, that means your stock rod was missing it :/

[BMW86]

Originally Posted by flinchy

the nuts weren't supplied, that means your stock rod was missing it :/

What da...

[sharkatron]

There are kits out there that now have "with hardware supplied". I'm assuming this has new nuts and bolts for all new suspension install. But yeh, a vendor did tell me I can just reuse the nuts and bolts holding the stock parts in.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by sharkatron

There are kits out there that now have "with hardware supplied". I'm assuming this has new nuts and bolts for all new suspension install. But yeh, a vendor did tell me I can just reuse the nuts and bolts holding the stock parts in.

You do not want to reuse the "nuts and bolts" for the suspension. Thats a No NO! The bolts are stretch bolts and are a one time use item.

The missing nut is for the headlight height regulator linkage - and not a stressed suspension component like a control arm or tension rod.

[sharkatron]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

You do not want to reuse the "nuts and bolts" for the suspension. Thats a No NO! The bolts are stretch bolts and are a one time use item.

The missing nut is for the headlight height regulator linkage - and not a stressed suspension component like a control arm or tension rod.

That is good to know - thanks for the heads up!

[BMW86]

I've had the front control arms in for a few days now. I'm not sure how to describe it accurately but there is a marginal improvement. I think I'll be able to appreciate it on the track, on the street it's very hard to tell. The workshop did an alignment as well and now I'm scrubbing in the fronts, but it sounds like it's coming from the inner guard area.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by BMW86

I've had the front control arms in for a few days now. I'm not sure how to describe it accurately but there is a marginal improvement. I think I'll be able to appreciate it on the track, on the street it's very hard to tell. The workshop did an alignment as well and now I'm scrubbing in the fronts, but it sounds like it's coming from the inner guard area.

scrubbing? just from the control arms? that's strange :/.. might wanna get that checked out lol

[ECSTuning]

Originally Posted by BMW86

I've had the front control arms in for a few days now. I'm not sure how to describe it accurately but there is a marginal improvement. I think I'll be able to appreciate it on the track, on the street it's very hard to tell. The workshop did an alignment as well and now I'm scrubbing in the fronts, but it sounds like it's coming from the inner guard area.

What's your wheel and tire set up? It almost sounds like the extra bit of camber is causing the tire to rub either a suspension component or the inner wheel well.

[BMW86]

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

What's your wheel and tire set up? It almost sounds like the extra bit of camber is causing the tire to rub either a suspension component or the inner wheel well.

19 x 8.5 ET45 Michelin PSS 225/35
19 x 9.5 ET50 Michelin PSS 255/30

[SteveAZ]

Originally Posted by flinchy

the nuts weren't supplied, that means your stock rod was missing it :/

Incorrect...the "M3" arm has an integrated attachment point, the 135i stock arm does not and there for doesn't require the nut. The 135i rod snaps in place at the ball joint...the "M3" rod has ball joints with a protruding bolt for attachment. Not a biggie.

Originally Posted by BMW86

I've had the front control arms in for a few days now. I'm not sure how to describe it accurately but there is a marginal improvement. I think I'll be able to appreciate it on the track, on the street it's very hard to tell. The workshop did an alignment as well and now I'm scrubbing in the fronts, but it sounds like it's coming from the inner guard area.

I had the exact same problem on my front right wheel and am also running 8.5 ET45's in front. My wheels were balanced with a combination of tape and clamp weights. The clamp weight was hitting the strut...had it removed and rebalanced...problem solved. Clearance is very close though...probably 3mm or so.

BMW86...what was your alignment adjusted to? I feel a huge difference but also requested my alignment to be adjusted to -1.5 camber in the front and rear...which is exactly what I got. I've only run it around town thus far but I use every opportunity I get to rail a corner (2nd gear @ about 4K)...the car definitely dives in to the corners and tracks better from a front end perspective. The rear feels like it dances a bit but actually hooks up pretty well. Still need to do rear bushings and shocks/struts, but it was a pretty big improvement and I don't get much if any understeer...or I haven't pushed it far enough yet. Still progressively increasing my aggressiveness with it.




Oh, and by the way..about the factory seconds debate. Another variable that hasn't been discussed yet...production efficiency. There are only a limited number of M3s produced...if you're a manufacturer and you spend the time to set your line for a particular product...does it make more sense build and sell 5000 units, or 10,000 units? If BMW didn't sign a rock solid exclusivity agreement....I'm building 10,000 if there is demand...simple economics.

[BMW86]

Originally Posted by ECSTuning

What's your wheel and tire set up? It almost sounds like the extra bit of camber is causing the tire to rub either a suspension component or the inner wheel well.

Do you think this means I could run slightly more aggressive offsets if I wanted to? The scrubbing isn't bad but it's definitely there.

Originally Posted by SteveAZ

Incorrect...the "M3" arm has an integrated attachment point, the 135i stock arm does not and there for doesn't require the nut. The 135i rod snaps in place at the ball joint...the "M3" rod has ball joints with a protruding bolt for attachment. Not a biggie.



I had the exact same problem on my front right wheel and am also running 8.5 ET45's in front. My wheels were balanced with a combination of tape and clamp weights. The clamp weight was hitting the strut...had it removed and rebalanced...problem solved. Clearance is very close though...probably 3mm or so.

BMW86...what was your alignment adjusted to? I feel a huge difference but also requested my alignment to be adjusted to -1.5 camber in the front and rear...which is exactly what I got. I've only run it around town thus far but I use every opportunity I get to rail a corner (2nd gear @ about 4K)...the car definitely dives in to the corners and tracks better from a front end perspective. The rear feels like it dances a bit but actually hooks up pretty well. Still need to do rear bushings and shocks/struts, but it was a pretty big improvement and I don't get much if any understeer...or I haven't pushed it far enough yet. Still progressively increasing my aggressiveness with it.




Oh, and by the way..about the factory seconds debate. Another variable that hasn't been discussed yet...production efficiency. There are only a limited number of M3s produced...if you're a manufacturer and you spend the time to set your line for a particular product...does it make more sense build and sell 5000 units, or 10,000 units? If BMW didn't sign a rock solid exclusivity agreement....I'm building 10,000 if there is demand...simple economics.

I'll check my alignment sheet and post the results soon. I'm taking the car back in later this week to get it checked out again. The steering wheel is slightly off-centre to the left. The guy mentioned it when I collected my car and said I could bring it back any time if I wasn't satisfied. I want to take it back so it's perfect. From memory the fronts are dialled in at -1.5, or as close as he could get to that. The car hooks corners easily, but my setup was already very good before getting these bits installed. Also, my car steering wheel seems to vibrate going above 110km/hr (68mph). It's not bad, just seem to notice it's there. The workshop says this may be because the wheels need balancing and they are unable to test it due to it occurring at high speeds. Could possibly be due to my Performance rotors having hair-line cracks in them, pads are new though.

[SteveAZ]

Originally Posted by BMW86

Do you think this means I could run slightly more aggressive offsets if I wanted to? The scrubbing isn't bad but it's definitely there.



I'll check my alignment sheet and post the results soon. I'm taking the car back in later this week to get it checked out again. The steering wheel is slightly off-centre to the left. The guy mentioned it when I collected my car and said I could bring it back any time if I wasn't satisfied. I want to take it back so it's perfect. From memory the fronts are dialled in at -1.5, or as close as he could get to that. The car hooks corners easily, but my setup was already very good before getting these bits installed. Also, my car steering wheel seems to vibrate going above 110km/hr (68mph). It's not bad, just seem to notice it's there. The workshop says this may be because the wheels need balancing and they are unable to test it due to it occurring at high speeds. Could possibly be due to my Performance rotors having hair-line cracks in them, pads are new though.

I think you have to find out what's rubbing before anybody can make that call. It does appear as though mine with stock suspension could run et40s and maybe even 35 or 30. Might even be preferable given how close the tire/wheel is to the strut.

No fibration issues here and I've done a few onramp logs doing 30-110-70 in pretty short distances.

My setup has been getting progressively better with each upgrade. While the E93 FSB helped level things out a bit, I'd say this was a bigger improvement. Whether or not the same could be achieved by dialing in the negative camber with the stock arms (if you can go that negative), I don't know as I never tried. Pretty cheap upgrade though if DIY'd.