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      01-29-2013, 05:41 AM   #89
drjekl
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Some ppl may find this thread misguided but you have gotta love the passion

Just a hypothetical question Adrian, say there were 4 interested parties with a deposit paid for the ST kit, could it be possible to develop it for RHD?

I haven't looked at the kit at all to know why it isn't RHD compatible.
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      01-29-2013, 05:58 AM   #90
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Wow, Adrian's most intelligent and mature post yet. Always seems to come after the sh1t hits the fan though...
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      01-29-2013, 06:50 AM   #91
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i'm not an idiot


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call me a keyboard warrior
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      01-29-2013, 07:02 AM   #92
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
i'm not an idiot


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call me a keyboard warrior
Easy on the flinch, anyone want to attempt the conversion he is doing. And posting the success and failures?
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      01-29-2013, 07:10 AM   #93
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jippii ensio
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i'm not an idiot


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call me a keyboard warrior
Easy on the flinch, anyone want to attempt the conversion he is doing. And posting the success and failures?
I probably should have said 'i'm not unintelligent' as entering this sort of 'debate' surely is some sort of idiocy lol

And what i'm attempting is DEFINITELY hahah.

Sorry for trainwrecking your thread, btw, pavo. I'm weak -_-
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      01-29-2013, 03:14 PM   #94
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I found some Vishnu Single Turbo Customer 1/4 times:



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      01-29-2013, 04:18 PM   #95
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^ that would be georgiatech335's (who i quoted a few posts up) looking at the dates.
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      01-29-2013, 04:44 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by nafoo
I found some Vishnu Single Turbo Customer 1/4 times:



My wife's vert with stock turbo's is quicker than that ST from 0-400m.

The trap speed is good though but still achievable with $3k RB's.
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      01-29-2013, 04:56 PM   #97
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^ that would be georgiatech335's (who i quoted a few posts up) looking at the dates.
Oh, I know him. He's cool. I bet he will beat Shiv's record when his new DRs arrive. The car should get into low tens based on the dyno.

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      01-29-2013, 05:06 PM   #98
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Oh, I know him. He's cool. I bet he will beat Shiv's record when his new DRs arrive. The car should get to low tens based on the dyno.
How is he going to be Shiv's time with JUST DRs? He still doesn't have 3.46 gearing to make up for the lack of low-end power.

Remember, Shiv cut a 1.5 60' to get his record. I don't see any Vishnu customer getting anywhere near that any time soon.
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      01-29-2013, 05:31 PM   #99
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It's all in the launch. Better tires and better track prep.
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      01-29-2013, 05:52 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nafoo
How is he going to be Shiv's time with JUST DRs? He still doesn't have 3.46 gearing to make up for the lack of low-end power.

Remember, Shiv cut a 1.5 60' to get his record. I don't see any Vishnu customer getting anywhere near that any time soon.
No customer car's with the ST will come close to Shiv's 10.8 time. Not for a LONG while!
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      01-29-2013, 06:47 PM   #101
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Oh, I know him. He's cool. I bet he will beat Shiv's record when his new DRs arrive. The car should get into low tens based on the dyno.
Yeah, not saying he's not a nice guy, he posts a fair bit and doesn't seem to BS much or give lame excuses, he comes straight up and says 'yea it's still not working right'

dyno? what was the result again? it misfired at high RPM until a couple of weeks ago? plus... if i'm thinking of the right car, it's around the 550-560whp mark or thereabouts?.. where shiv's was 630~WHP with zero issues

trap speed being a representation of horsepower.. it trapped 124.8 as it's fastest run, it's NOWHERE NEAR a 10 at that trap.. i guess you could equate that to the 'timing would zero out in 4th if I used NLS or if I shifted too quickly' issue if it was THAT bad.

i hope he gets at least a low-mid-11 with the new DR's.. i bet money on not cracking 10's though

and that was race gas on 23-24psi as per the post i quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nafoo View Post
How is he going to be Shiv's time with JUST DRs? He still doesn't have 3.46 gearing to make up for the lack of low-end power.

Remember, Shiv cut a 1.5 60' to get his record. I don't see any Vishnu customer getting anywhere near that any time soon.
mmhm he even said (in the post i quoted) that the stock gearing was hindering him with the ST's power curve and wants 3.46 to run a great time... would DEFINITELY help keep the revs to the far right where power is.
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      01-29-2013, 08:15 PM   #102
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So can anyone show me a single turbo that is not Vishnu/FFTEC trapping over 120MPH? If any of you have any experience in drag racing, you would know that the trap speed is a better indicator of the engine performance than the ET which is a better indication of drivetrain launch capability. My WRX does 11.06 124MPH with ~1.6 60 foot. 125+ MPH can get 10s with great launch. When this car is fully optimized it will be trapping 130+. Not many cars can trap 130 with a bolt on kit that you just fit and run. You fit the kit, and then you optimize and test and eventually you get there. Eventually you get the power and suspension/tyres right and you get a 10.

Many of you miss my point completely. It is easy to take a shot at the Vishnu kit for under-performing, but to say that next week something else will come out that is heaps better is also easy when it has not happened yet. Vishnu has found many issues and solved most of them. Whoever comes along next will have the same issues and have to solve them. Many of the issues occur on some cars and not others. It makes it difficult to diagnose an issue without access to the car with the issue. Most of the issues are not inherent flaws with the turbo hardware or the tuning, but with standard items on the car that are pushed beyond their engineered loads. As we find and solve the issues, we update our knowledge and sometimes the recommended hardware to run in conjunction with the kit.

I never said the Vishnu kit was the ultimate kit that will ever be produced. But as it stands now, it is the only kit that has done anything significant, and I think by the time the other options solve all the issues, it may be quite some time before anything else comes at a level to challenge it. Time will tell.

As for RHD.... if I could get 10 customers, I would try and arrange it. But for a few customers the development time and support would not be worth it. Advan are doing this, so I suggest RHD guys see them for their large frame turbo option.

Flinchy, you really know nothing about me, and I nothing about you. I can say that I was working on N54s well before any or your experts that you consult. I have been involved in solving all the issues we have ever had at Vishnu. I am not a mechanic. What I can see about you is that you love to trawl for biased opinions and then regurgitate them as the one and only truth and claim you are an expert. Hence why I consider you a keyboard warrior. That is great you stripped an engine. By the time you complete your build you should have some good knowledge, but it is early days now, and all your knowledge is internet research. When you actually start doing real world testing you will learn a lot.
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      01-29-2013, 08:26 PM   #103
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Adrian, not taking a stab at you at all. But if you said something like that in your first post this all would have been avoided and people would have respected you for it.
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      01-29-2013, 09:15 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
So can anyone show me a single turbo that is not Vishnu/FFTEC trapping over 120MPH? If any of you have any experience in drag racing, you would know that the trap speed is a better indicator of the engine performance than the ET which is a better indication of drivetrain launch capability. My WRX does 11.06 124MPH with ~1.6 60 foot. 125+ MPH can get 10s with great launch. When this car is fully optimized it will be trapping 130+. Not many cars can trap 130 with a bolt on kit that you just fit and run. You fit the kit, and then you optimize and test and eventually you get there. Eventually you get the power and suspension/tyres right and you get a 10.
if we're talking about traps, how about twins that trap over 120? there's a number of them?

i know the current offerings aren't capable of 130's, but you did ask about 120, and i'm not sure why that has to be single exclusive... actually scrap that, seems there's a JB powered N54 trapping 132 >_>.. i believe it WAS with juice though

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
I never said the Vishnu kit was the ultimate kit that will ever be produced. But as it stands now, it is the only kit that has done anything significant, and I think by the time the other options solve all the issues, it may be quite some time before anything else comes at a level to challenge it. Time will tell.
can't argue with that, they are of course the only current option..

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
As for RHD.... if I could get 10 customers, I would try and arrange it. But for a few customers the development time and support would not be worth it. Advan are doing this, so I suggest RHD guys see them for their large frame turbo option.
what exactly? development time to make a new downpipe? i really have no idea what the major hurdle is? i know with the Vargas III's it's IS just their downpipe placement..

the engine bays of RHD and LHD N54's as far as i'm aware are 100% completely identical other than the RHD having the steering rack right where you want to put the DP's.. at $10k a kit, and considering the low volume that have sold to date, the bigger market might be a good idea?

support, that's a fair call i guess. if there's no one local.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
Flinchy, you really know nothing about me, and I nothing about you. I can say that I was working on N54s well before any or your experts that you consult. I have been involved in solving all the issues we have ever had at Vishnu. I am not a mechanic. What I can see about you is that you love to trawl for biased opinions and then regurgitate them as the one and only truth and claim you are an expert. Hence why I consider you a keyboard warrior. That is great you stripped an engine. By the time you complete your build you should have some good knowledge, but it is early days now, and all your knowledge is internet research. When you actually start doing real world testing you will learn a lot.
You've been working on N54's before they were released? i'm talking about guys like terry (he says hi by the way), dzenno, and all the other mechanics etc. that are active in the community.. you're actually saying you have more experience than terry, who made the JB from the ground up, or have tuned more than dzenno (who's tuned the current most powerful twin turbo too)? woah.

i never claimed to be an expert, but conversely you claim that i know nothing at all.. and as such appear to claim to be the guru

want to have a crack and doing this swap for me? i'll give you absolutely no information on it though.

well.. no... putting it back together is (minus the stuff i'm changing) just the same process in reverse... i'm pretty familiar with everything on it so far...

Gathering first hand information by myself has a fraction of the value of 10,20, more people's worth of information.. which is all gathered from real world situations, more than i could ever possibly experience myself... with this assistance, i already know exactly what has to be done to get it running, what parts i need, what parts need to be custom made up (assuming the electronics aren't fried or someting hah).. again NO I AM NOT AN EXPERT.. but if i don't know everything possible pertaining to my situation and build, i should sell it right now because it's never going to work, because no one else bloody knows (and the cost balloons due to other people having to do all the work at least hah).

No, i haven't done... say bench testing of the fuel pumps... but other people have, and i have that information

no, i didn't discover that the DMFW triggers misfire detection at high loads.. but i know that now
no i didn't discover that the stock charge pipe blows off at moderate boost, or PCV stuff, or wastegate rattle cause or all of the major tuning work to date (and no, i probably will never have a 100% in depth knowledge of the DME, becuse it's something i don't need..... i do have a pretty solid idea of the connector pinouts, which kinda comes with pulling apart all the wiring lol)
... companies like ER/stett/CP-E/customers etc. have done all the RnD on charge pipes/oil coolers/Intercoolers, i just have to look at whitepapers, datalogs, dynos, work out what suits my goals and go from there... only if i find something lacking, will i need to take that next step.

but i know all of that stuff, because of the work of other people... If all of this is untrue, and invalid... well that's idiotic, we know more today than our ancestors, because we learn from them, we don't have to work out the theory of relativity or thermodynamic laws, because other people have done it for us, and that doesn't make us (as a society) any less knowledgeable.. regardless of the fact they were hyper-intelligentand in-fact more knowledgeable lol...

Just because you have been involved in it from the start, doesn't mean you know more specific things... things that are freely available now-common-knowledge

You'll likely discover and solve more things than i will, due to the nature of your work.. but that's not relevant to the right now.

i do not trawl for biased opinions, like yours for example, i'd rather ignore it because it has no balance.. though ill take it on board for existing, for sure.

besides, keyboard warrior seems to imply i wouldn't be talking like this in real life... hahaahahahaha lets try that then.

Last edited by flinchy; 01-29-2013 at 09:34 PM.
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      01-29-2013, 09:19 PM   #105
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Adrian, not taking a stab at you at all. But if you said something like that in your first post this all would have been avoided and people would have respected you for it.
i would have agreed 100% until the last paragraph
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      01-29-2013, 10:31 PM   #106
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You've been working on N54's before they were released? i'm talking about guys like terry (he says hi by the way), dzenno, and all the other mechanics etc. that are active in the community.. you're actually saying you have more experience than terry, who made the JB from the ground up, or have tuned more than dzenno (who's tuned the current most powerful twin turbo too)? woah.
Yes..... Which came first... the Procede or the JB? Do you know who was involved in the development of the Procede?

Lets leave the twin turbo out of this. Dzenno has a quick twin turbo. Vishnu had a quick twin turbo years ago. It had the record for a long time, and newer records are within 1-2 tenths ET and I think slower trap. That has got nothing to do with this discussion. The quickest ST is quicker than the quickest Twin turbo. The fact is that most Twin turbos are not nearly as quick as the quickest TT, and the same with STs. Shiv has trapped over 130 and done a 10. Another car has trapped 125 with a 12. Odds on, with tweaking, that other car will eventually trap 130 with a 10... just like any other RB car could tweaked to match Dzennos car. Not many twin turbos trapped over 120 on their first outing. I have been involved with a local car has done 124, but it took a fair bit of optimization to get there. To get the absolute best results is always more than just bolting in a kit. It requires much testing and attempts and tweaking. It has always been this way for drag racers. Most customers of this kit will not care. Most of them just want to know they can get on it on a freeway and leave their mates behind in a rolling start.

Also, the stock turbo car that trapped over 130 was running NOS. Although I find that impressive in its own right, I do not see the relevance to cars that are not running NOS. We all know NOS can make a monster out of a pretty basic engine. ST+NOS=????

The problem with your internet research is that when you read about someones opinion on a product from a company that they have an issue with and a product they have no experience with, do you expect it to be unbiased and 100% true? My problem with you is that you tarnish the name of a product by regurgitating this information that you really have no first hand experience with. You do not know if the information you put up is true, yet you don't mind taking aim at this product in a public forum based upon this information.
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      01-29-2013, 10:46 PM   #107
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Yes..... Which came first... the Procede or the JB? Do you know who was involved in the development of the Procede?

Also, the stock turbo car that trapped over 130 was running NOS. Although I find that impressive in its own right, I do not see the relevance to cars that are not running NOS. We all know NOS can make a monster out of a pretty basic engine. ST+NOS=????

The problem with your internet research is that when you read about someones opinion on a product from a company that they have an issue with and a product they have no experience with, do you expect it to be unbiased and 100% true? My problem with you is that you tarnish the name of a product by regurgitating this information that you really have no first hand experience with. You do not know if the information you put up is true, yet you don't mind taking aim at this product in a public forum based upon this information.
which came first != development start date.

it's true it's a little invalid, but just because... ehhh i can't be bothered finishing that sentence. ST + nos will be cool to see fo sho.

and yeah it's not really entirely valid comparing Dzenno's setup either, as he has a ported head and compression lowering head gasket (fwiw, he probably left 10-20hp+ on the table before his driveshaft broke..).. it's valid to the point that it's an alternative to an ST kit.. while not an ST kit itself.

But its not research just to do with companies, or company bias, i don't care about procede vs jb vs cobb, i don't really care about the vishnu/FFTEC ST... I'm just correcting things as i see them...


the people WITH first hand information are the ones 'tarnishing', i do in fact, yes, repeat what they say.. this is how the world works, until you can get some positive information on a product you've heard nothing but negatives about.. and in this case ALSO the tactics and attitudes of the entire company.. that's how it stays.. the ST kit has a bad reputation with the greater N54 community, you just can't see on this forum because most negative-comments are deleted, and the posters banned. fortunately this forum isn't as big as E90.

see above 1/4 results, and the 2 or 3 ST owners that have actually posted first hand experiences (hint: none glowing) and up to date information.. not one of those members are getting laughed at or put down, everyone, myself included wants to see the kits work perfectly, but so far for the $10k outlay, the continued performance and issues needs to be told to any potential customer

With the internet being how it is... someone goes 'oh single turbo i could go one of those'.. MOST buyers then go 'ok lets google how it performs (...) price.. hm should be good! (...) oh.... oh... (...) ... oh... well.. ok'.. if this were not to happen, they'd g straight out, buy it, and.. to put it bluntly, be dissatisfied.

so all in all, yes, i know the information i have (about this particular ST topic) is true, because it's coming from not only people in the industry, but people who own or have owned the kit.. They do say it's amazing on the highway, and when it's not having some sort of issue... but issue it has.

Last edited by flinchy; 01-29-2013 at 10:55 PM.
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      01-29-2013, 11:07 PM   #108
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      01-29-2013, 11:09 PM   #109
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well said
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      01-29-2013, 11:17 PM   #110
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Flinchy,

You should do some research on how the JB came to be. The development of it only started because of the existence of the Procede (as a released product that was selling very well). Not only that, a good portion of the JB development was copied from the Procede, after the developers of the Procede worked out how to do things. I was one of those people working on what I believe was the first 335i in the USA in mid-late 2006. Since that time I have also been a key developer in:

* introducing CAN integration to N54.
* First to support upgraded turbos (and get records)
* Control of NOS from the tune
* Isolated boost control (requiring CAN) as is required with STs.
* Single turbo control (which is more than just boost control)
* Many other things.

I really did not want to go to that level of detail, but it seems I really needed to spell it out for you. You seem to be implying that the JB was in development before the Procede was. This was not the case. If you search this forum when Terry was still a member back in early 2007 you would see that.

It this "correct things as you see them" that bothers me. Just because you see things in a certain way does not mean that you actually know what you talking about.

Anyway, I am done with arguing with Flinchy. I should have known better. I keep thinking he must know this and that about the N54 community and its history..... and get proven wrong.
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