BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-11-2013, 07:22 PM   #1
Kracken
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2011 AW 135i DCT M Sport
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 107
iTrader: (0)

Battery failure diagnostic results

So...I recently had a failed battery replaced; not covered under warranty at only 14K miles.
$ 402.00 later, I was told the denial was due to the car sitting idle too long but the paper work seems to reveal additional info:

Diagnosis code D6121; unfavorable usage terminal 15 left on, Long immobilization at kilometer reading 22896.

I'm still fighting the denial but the dealer is leaning towards operator error saying the battery was not defective.

Does anybody know what systems or circuits involve terminal 15?

Some folks have speculated my Comfort Access prevented my car from going into sleep mode due to a spare key being kept close by in a closed toolbox in the garage thus slowly draining the battery which is entirely possible but now I'm curious to know more about terminal 15. The Director of Service did not know exactly.

BMWNA is now involved as well. Just waiting to hear back.

Thanks in advance for any input
__________________
2011 AW 135i
Kracken is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-11-2013, 07:30 PM   #2
Maranello455
Private First Class
 
Maranello455's Avatar
 
Drives: 09'M-3,99'M3,02'M-3,88'M6,74'T
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dorado.P.R.

Posts: 178
iTrader: (0)

Is this the same "P.O.S" car in another thread? I am no expert,but maybe leaving the key near the car,caused it.But then again, BMW does not specify anywhere that leaving the key near the car can cause battery failure or voids any warranty. About the "P.O.S" adjective,keep in mind that in this forum we really like our cars.Just my simple,honest opinion. Anyway hope you resolve your issues and be able to enjoy your 1.
__________________
135i Coupe N54
Maranello455 is offline   Puerto Rico
0
Reply With Quote
      02-11-2013, 10:04 PM   #3
Sindarin
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: USA

Posts: 41
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
So...I recently had a failed battery replaced; not covered under warranty at only 14K miles.
$ 402.00 later, I was told the denial was due to the car sitting idle too long but the paper work seems to reveal additional info:

Diagnosis code D6121; unfavorable usage terminal 15 left on, Long immobilization at kilometer reading 22896.

I'm still fighting the denial but the dealer is leaning towards operator error saying the battery was not defective.

Does anybody know what systems or circuits involve terminal 15?

Some folks have speculated my Comfort Access prevented my car from going into sleep mode due to a spare key being kept close by in a closed toolbox in the garage thus slowly draining the battery which is entirely possible but now I'm curious to know more about terminal 15. The Director of Service did not know exactly.

BMWNA is now involved as well. Just waiting to hear back.

Thanks in advance for any input
Ignition was left on without the engine running.
Sindarin is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-11-2013, 10:44 PM   #4
Kracken
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2011 AW 135i DCT M Sport
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 107
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maranello455 View Post
Is this the same "P.O.S" car in another thread? I am no expert,but maybe leaving the key near the car,caused it.But then again, BMW does not specify anywhere that leaving the key near the car can cause battery failure or voids any warranty. About the "P.O.S" adjective,keep in mind that in this forum we really like our cars.Just my simple,honest opinion. Anyway hope you resolve your issues and be able to enjoy your 1.
Guess I had that comin'.....Hey at least I called my car a POS and not yours...
I'm never gonna live that one down. I was just pissed at the moment....
__________________
2011 AW 135i
Kracken is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-11-2013, 10:49 PM   #5
Kracken
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2011 AW 135i DCT M Sport
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 107
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindarin View Post
Ignition was left on without the engine running.
Doesnt locking the car turn off the ignition? I also always hit the start/stop button twice b4 getting out.

Thanks
__________________
2011 AW 135i
Kracken is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-11-2013, 11:06 PM   #6
Dackelone
Moderator
 
Dackelone's Avatar
 
Drives: 135i Silber mit/Rot 6MT N54
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bayern, Germany

Posts: 15,121
iTrader: (1)

terminal 15 is tech jargon for +12v "swicthed" when the ignition is on.

terminal 31 is tech jargon for constant ground.
terminal 30 is tech jargon for constant +12v (even when the car is switched off).

IF you look at the top of a relay... you will see these numbers.


http://www.lennysvw.com/WIRINGid.htm
Dackelone is offline   Germany
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 07:33 AM   #7
JimD
Colonel
 
JimD's Avatar
 
Drives: 128i convertible
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lexington, SC

Posts: 2,527
iTrader: (0)

A low current draw over an extended period of time can ruin a battery but it doesn't always. I've left something on for days and been able to recharge the battery. But I've lost them too. Most recently this happened when I left an interior light on in my non-bimmer SUV at the airport. The battery was old and did not recover.

If it was the comfort access, however, I don't see how this is operator error. I wouldn't store the spare key in the garage but if there is no warning I don't know why that would eliminate BMW's warranty. Batteries and other consumables often get different warranties than the rest of the car, however.

My fiancees 1 has comfort access so I will mention to her to keep the key away. But having the switched 12V on does not guarantee a load was applied. What load caused the battery drain? Just the car's computer? Or was a light or something lit? It would be even more curious if it is just the car's computer.

Jim
__________________
128i Convertible, MT, Alpine White, Black Top, Taupe Leatherette, Walnut, Sport
Ordered 5/22/09, Completed 6/4/09, At Port 6/9/09, On the Georgia Highway 6/13/09, Ship Arrived Charleston 6/24/09 at 10pm, PCD 7/21/09
JimD is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 09:23 AM   #8
rking117
Captain
 
Drives: Z4 3.0i & 128i
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Central Florida

Posts: 852
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
A low current draw over an extended period of time can ruin a battery but it doesn't always.
Really this shouldnt harm a battery unless it drains completely and then stays that way for an extended period of time. (more than a couple days) It could hurt it is the battery drains very low every day due to a larger amperage running through it while idle and repeatedly goes through that cycle for a period of time. Still whether it would take months or even years for it to fail is subjuect to debate.

There have been many battery tests where many of the same batteries were subjected to this behavior over time and they get varng results. The problem is that noone can predict with accuracy when a battery will fail.

One tiny drop of acid more of less can affect life or one grounded plate or particle on the plates with in the battery can also cause deteriorated longevity.

As batteries are used a smll amount of lead is released into the liquid as a by product. this lead settles over time and grounds out the battery plates. from bottom up. that is why some consider new batteries sttrong and older ones weak. that is because they are actually weaker dues to the less amperage they are capable of delivering.

There is a lot of science behind batteries and how they work, degrade and otherwise but there is no way they can predict that it will last 37.123 months. If that were the case then every American that owns a car that has a battery in it can sue for intentional damages stating that they were intentionally buit that way.

WAIT, i may have just hit upon somethng. Maybe we do have a case. food for thought.
__________________
Enjoying an E89 Z4, E82 128i and Fiat Pop 500 / Missing my E85 Z4 (sold)
rking117 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 09:27 AM   #9
rking117
Captain
 
Drives: Z4 3.0i & 128i
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Central Florida

Posts: 852
iTrader: (0)

There are a ton of artcles out there that state that a battery that has a charge will not go dead if it is left idle unless it is not holding a charge or if the car is draining it.

Now if you left your key fob in/on/next to the car then there you go. pay the $400 and move on. If not then certainly you have a case.
__________________
Enjoying an E89 Z4, E82 128i and Fiat Pop 500 / Missing my E85 Z4 (sold)
rking117 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 01:28 PM   #10
JimD
Colonel
 
JimD's Avatar
 
Drives: 128i convertible
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lexington, SC

Posts: 2,527
iTrader: (0)

When my SUV battery died it would not even operate the radio. I was able to jump it and get home but it wouldn't hold a charge after that. With a normal car battery I don't know that you have to go that low, however, to do damage. Deep cycle batteries, like I use for the trolling motor on my boat, are made to be pretty completely discharged. Car batteries are not. Normal use doesn't take them close to fully discharged.

Jim
__________________
128i Convertible, MT, Alpine White, Black Top, Taupe Leatherette, Walnut, Sport
Ordered 5/22/09, Completed 6/4/09, At Port 6/9/09, On the Georgia Highway 6/13/09, Ship Arrived Charleston 6/24/09 at 10pm, PCD 7/21/09
JimD is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 01:52 PM   #11
ESC OFF
Major
 
ESC OFF's Avatar
 
Drives: 1M (AW) & CaymanS
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago

Posts: 1,058
iTrader: (0)

Somewhat off topic, but this battery concept is very intriguing to me..... anyone familiar??
http://www.lithionicsbattery.com/auto.html
__________________
The faster you go, the better it feels
ESC OFF is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 08:13 PM   #12
Kracken
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2011 AW 135i DCT M Sport
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 107
iTrader: (0)

Moving on and chalked up as a lesson learned...BMWNA sided with the dealer-denied!!
They said it was up to the dealer as to whether further consideration is warranted- funny, that's what the dealer said about BMWNA.
Granted, this appears to be my fault according to the diagnostic results but it makes me a bit leary about BMW warranty coverage in general. For all I know, I have an undiagnosed drain down problem still lurking.....Time will tell


Thanks for all the feedback folks
__________________
2011 AW 135i
Kracken is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 08:33 PM   #13
Maranello455
Private First Class
 
Maranello455's Avatar
 
Drives: 09'M-3,99'M3,02'M-3,88'M6,74'T
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dorado.P.R.

Posts: 178
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
Moving on and chalked up as a lesson learned...BMWNA sided with the dealer-denied!!
They said it was up to the dealer as to whether further consideration is warranted- funny, that's what the dealer said about BMWNA.
Granted, this appears to be my fault according to the diagnostic results but it makes me a bit leary about BMW warranty coverage in general. For all I know, I have an undiagnosed drain down problem still lurking.....Time will tell


Thanks for all the feedback folks
I think its maybe better you try servicing in the future with a different dealer that you have nearby,maybe they are somewhat more flexible with their policies. Anyway your issue is on record with the dealer as well as BMWNA,so if the issue of the drain down had a different cause or origin,you should ask for a refund of what they charged you for the new battery. Good luck next time and enjoy your car.
__________________
135i Coupe N54
Maranello455 is offline   Puerto Rico
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 10:08 PM   #14
Kracken
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2011 AW 135i DCT M Sport
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 107
iTrader: (0)

Thx Maranello....only dealer in town or I would do just that. I plan on going back in person and telling them BMWNA said it's up to them, the dealer- and see what they say. (Some one is not being totally honest here) I will also bring up the point you mentioned about what if it happens again, then what.
__________________
2011 AW 135i
Kracken is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 11:02 PM   #15
Maranello455
Private First Class
 
Maranello455's Avatar
 
Drives: 09'M-3,99'M3,02'M-3,88'M6,74'T
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dorado.P.R.

Posts: 178
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
Thx Maranello....only dealer in town or I would do just that. I plan on going back in person and telling them BMWNA said it's up to them, the dealer- and see what they say. (Some one is not being totally honest here) I will also bring up the point you mentioned about what if it happens again, then what.
Be persistent with BMWNA and run up the corporate ladder with your complaint in BMWNA and you will get your refund,also usually they really dont like bad publicity.They should have given you the benefit of the doubt,I guess your SA it being somewhat stubborn.Be sure to change to another SA.
__________________
135i Coupe N54
Maranello455 is offline   Puerto Rico
0
Reply With Quote
      02-12-2013, 11:56 PM   #16
Sindarin
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: USA

Posts: 41
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
For all I know, I have an undiagnosed drain down problem still lurking.....Time will tell
The Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) monitors closed circuit current draw. If there was a closed circuit current draw infringement it would have been brought up as a cause during energy diagnosis.
Sindarin is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-13-2013, 10:58 PM   #17
Kracken
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2011 AW 135i DCT M Sport
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 107
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maranello455 View Post
I guess your SA it being somewhat stubborn.Be sure to change to another SA.
I only have a few left to pick from,
The first SA I had when I first went in a long time ago was awesome but he quit, months later while in for service my 2nd SA told me to take my car to another dealer which is 2 hours away when I asked about getting a PPK (Claimed they had outdated equipment to do it) now on my 3rd SA with the battery issue who also happens to be the asst service manager ....
__________________
2011 AW 135i
Kracken is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-14-2013, 08:05 PM   #18
JHZR2
Captain
 
Drives: 91 E30, 11 135i cv
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey

Posts: 864
iTrader: (0)

I wonder if this comfort access thing is well known???

I had a dead battery, swapped another one in, drove to the dealer and they replaced the battery for me under warranty.

Dont recall the reason cited, but what they told me was that since my car had sat for a while, that was why. They DID check to make sure all modules were going to sleep properly.

So dealers will cover it. But if they have reason to believe that you screwed up, then let's face it, it IS your fault (not meaning to be rude here). IMO the module should still power down and go to sleep if a key is present but no action for some amount of time... But if that doesnt happen, you still made the situation. Starts to turn into a big pointing fingers game.

But for $400, Id probably buy a BT or whatever tool lets you register a new battery, and then an AAP autocraft silver battery with the 40% coupon, which is a great deal.

These cars just DO suck down a lot of power if left sitting. I let mine sit for nearly a month without being on the maintainer, and it went down to a bit below 12V. That is 0 state of charge. There is a risk of electrolyte freezing at lowered state of charge, so be double careful in the winter.

If you can, use a battery maintainer, the BatteryMinder 2012 is my current top choice. Im currently making a custom harness that will fit the 1 series, so it is easy to hook up without even popping the hood...

Last edited by JHZR2; 02-14-2013 at 08:15 PM.
JHZR2 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-15-2013, 08:05 AM   #19
JimD
Colonel
 
JimD's Avatar
 
Drives: 128i convertible
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lexington, SC

Posts: 2,527
iTrader: (0)

I'm still struggling a little to understand why having the key close enough to leave the car somewhat "on" results in battery depletion. My 128i sits for several days in a row now and works fine. It does not have CA but I don't see why having the key around would cause a current draw. Was the radio on or something? The battery isn't going to deplete just because the car isn't in "sleep" mode or whatever they call it. It depletes because something with a not insignificant current draw is "on". I wouldn't think the car's computer is enough of a draw.

If the story is effectively that you left the radio on for a week because you left a CA key close enough to the vehicle to leave it "on" I would see the dealer making a case but I also think BMWs with CA are programmed pretty weird. My non-CA turns the accessory outlet off after 30 seconds or so, even if the key is in the ignition. That was a pain when I was using my 12V compressor to air up tires so I got battery clips for it. Powering itself down regardless of the key status is what I would expect. If it did not do that and that is fundimentally what caused the battery to go bad, it sounds like it is really BMWs fault. Either bad programming or a malfunctioning car.

Jim
__________________
128i Convertible, MT, Alpine White, Black Top, Taupe Leatherette, Walnut, Sport
Ordered 5/22/09, Completed 6/4/09, At Port 6/9/09, On the Georgia Highway 6/13/09, Ship Arrived Charleston 6/24/09 at 10pm, PCD 7/21/09
JimD is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-15-2013, 12:57 PM   #20
JHZR2
Captain
 
Drives: 91 E30, 11 135i cv
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey

Posts: 864
iTrader: (0)

I hear you that it doesnt make a lot of sense.

That said, I know that even on my 91 318i, a very basic car, I get a not insignificant voltage drop when I turn the car to the "on" position, but not started. This is without any lights, radios, etc turned on.

Why? No idea? It stays there too, its not like it just drops when something is energized and then the draw goes down.

So it is an interesting question...

The test I suppose would be to put a multimeter on the underhood terminals, and let the car sit one time with the CA key nearby, another time with it far, far away. See if it affects the sleep and draw pattern. You should easily see the car wake up, and identify the changes that occur, if and when the CA key comes by, and the differences between what happens if the CA key is left close, or taken far away.

But you shouldnt HAVE to do this of course. Seems like lack of forethought in programming...
JHZR2 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-15-2013, 01:45 PM   #21
TheBurro
Private First Class
 
TheBurro's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 135i
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 193
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
I only have a few left to pick from,
The first SA I had when I first went in a long time ago was awesome but he quit, months later while in for service my 2nd SA told me to take my car to another dealer which is 2 hours away when I asked about getting a PPK (Claimed they had outdated equipment to do it) now on my 3rd SA with the battery issue who also happens to be the asst service manager ....
Mike Brehm has always treated me fairly there. Ever dealt with him?
TheBurro is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:22 AM.




1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST