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      02-18-2013, 09:55 AM   #1
lcrain
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Need some opinions/thoughts on tires

I bought a set of 18 in arc-8s in their most recent group buy. Went with the staggered setup (9.5/10.5). There are plenty of people running these wheels with F 265 and R 285 tires. I am trying to decide which tires would be best for my needs.

Some background: My 1M is my only car so it sees daily duty (~10-15 miles a day), and it takes me on road trips but the miles are still fairly low (~10,000 right now). The car also sees track duty (hopefully 10-15 days this year). I have been running the stock PS2s at the track and found them to be a great street tire and fine for my experience level at the track. I run in the intermediate groups, so by no means am I an expert capable of extracting maximum performance out of the car/tires. I live in Dallas, so I am willing to run an extreme performance tire year round.

So I am considering a tire that will serve the same dual purpose. Here are the three tires I am considering:

1. Hankook RS-3 in 265/35/18 and 285/35/18. These seem to be the consensus best performer in the category in the dry, but have some limitations in the wet. My shop quoted me ~$1100 a set.

2. Dunlop Direzza Z2 in 265/35/18 and 285/30/18. Brand spanking new tire, so minimal data. The z1 has been very popular and I can only assume these would be a step forward. ~$1200 for a set.

3. Federal 595-RSR in 265/35/18 and 285/30/18. Read a few "unprofessional" reviews which say they are a good tire but not as good as the RS-3 and the like. My shop seems to think these are the tires to go with for the price. The set will cost ~$750.

I don't want to cheap out, but that ~$400-500 in saving could go towards some camber plates. I am sure there are opinions on each, and I would love to hear them all.

Really I am asking whether you guys think I should take the chance on the federals or stick with the usual suspects in this category.
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      02-18-2013, 10:34 AM   #2
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Tire sizes are fine, but I would personally go with 275 and 295 combo like Mdorphn plans on doing. I also would not cheap out on tires because you have to live with the decision for 10 - 15k miles or the added cost and inconvenience of replacing them. The RS3 and Z2 have proven track records. The Z2 has better wet weather grip than the RS3, but less than the PS2/PSS. You can't go wrong with either.
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      02-18-2013, 10:53 AM   #3
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I second the 275 and 295 combo!

I would highly suggest you to buy Michelin PSS's. Besides they are even cheaper than PS2's for some reason - PSS's are better in every way. Send Gill at TireRack a PM and see what he recommends. Be sure to tell him you are a 1Addict.
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      02-18-2013, 11:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaddylo View Post
Tire sizes are fine, but I would personally go with 275 and 295 combo like Mdorphn plans on doing. I also would not cheap out on tires because you have to live with the decision for 10 - 15k miles or the added cost and inconvenience of replacing them. The RS3 and Z2 have proven track records. The Z2 has better wet weather grip than the RS3, but less than the PS2/PSS. You can't go wrong with either.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think Mdorphn moved to a 10et25 front wheel as opposed to the 9.5et22 wheels that I ordered. Will the 9.5et22 accommodate a 275 front tire?

Looking online the only tire in this category in those sizes are the new BFG g-force rival. Open to the idea I guess. BTW the sizes would be 275/35 and 295/35.

I should also add that my car is completely stock. When I do the wheels/tires I will be adding stainless brake lines, new brake fluid, and purchase some track brake pads to switch out (undecided on pads). I will also try to get as much negative camber as possible stock with an alignment. That said I may be buying camber plates in the near future, but that is not definite.

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I second the 275 and 295 combo!

I would highly suggest you to buy Michelin PSS's. Besides they are even cheaper than PS2's for some reason - PSS's are better in every way. Send Gill at TireRack a PM and see what he recommends. Be sure to tell him you are a 1Addict.
I have read great things about the PSS, and have enjoyed the PS2s. That said I want to move to something a little stickier...

What is Gill's email?
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      02-18-2013, 11:25 AM   #5
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PSS is a terrific all-around tire, but does not have quite the same grip in the dry as the RS3 or, reportedly, as the Z2.

I'd go either PSS or Z2.

Neil
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      02-18-2013, 11:38 AM   #6
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What is Gill's email?

Gill@Tirerack.com

You can send Gill a PM thru 1Addicts.
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      02-18-2013, 11:49 AM   #7
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275 is probably the widest you should mount to a 9.5" wheel. I'm running 275 Conti's on them with no issues, however I may be giving up a little performance. Having the tire stretched on the wheel has been known to provide better traction and tire response.

Maxing out your front stock camber isn't going to get you much especially if you're driving tracks with demanding corners such as carousels. Going with a unidirectional tire such as the RS3 and Z2 would make the most sense because you can swap the tires from side to side.
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      02-18-2013, 01:30 PM   #8
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If you're going to be doing 5-7 DE weekends a year you really need to get some camber plates. They will pay for themselves pretty quickly in reduced front tire wear. The more you go to the track and the faster you become the quicker you will wear out the front tires on stock setup. Its not unheard of to chunk a brand new set of front tires on a stock setup. If money is a constraint then get the camber plates and then whatever tires you can afford.

Also I wouldn't worry too much about wet weather performance. If it rains leave the traction control on and drive cautiously. It rains down here so seldomly it's really not that big a deal.
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      02-18-2013, 05:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
PSS is a terrific all-around tire, but does not have quite the same grip in the dry as the RS3 or, reportedly, as the Z2.

I'd go either PSS or Z2.

Neil
Neil, will you be running a 10 and a 10.5 or a 10 and a 11?
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      02-18-2013, 05:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
PSS is a terrific all-around tire, but does not have quite the same grip in the dry as the RS3 or, reportedly, as the Z2.

I'd go either PSS or Z2.

Neil
Any comments on running a 275/35 tire on the 9.5et22 wheels?

Thanks Neil

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Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
Gill@Tirerack.com

You can send Gill a PM thru 1Addicts.
Thanks Dack, I sent him a PM.

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Originally Posted by bdaddylo View Post
275 is probably the widest you should mount to a 9.5" wheel. I'm running 275 Conti's on them with no issues, however I may be giving up a little performance. Having the tire stretched on the wheel has been known to provide better traction and tire response.

Maxing out your front stock camber isn't going to get you much especially if you're driving tracks with demanding corners such as carousels. Going with a unidirectional tire such as the RS3 and Z2 would make the most sense because you can swap the tires from side to side.
Yeah, I am thinking the camber plates might be necessary too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
If you're going to be doing 5-7 DE weekends a year you really need to get some camber plates. They will pay for themselves pretty quickly in reduced front tire wear. The more you go to the track and the faster you become the quicker you will wear out the front tires on stock setup. Its not unheard of to chunk a brand new set of front tires on a stock setup. If money is a constraint then get the camber plates and then whatever tires you can afford.

Also I wouldn't worry too much about wet weather performance. If it rains leave the traction control on and drive cautiously. It rains down here so seldomly it's really not that big a deal.
That is what I thought. I can afford the camber plates and the "better" tires, but if I went with the federals the blow to my wallet would be softened. Anything I should know about running camber plates on the street?

Going to call my BJ with Clownshoe motorsports and see about pricing/availability from his supplier.
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      02-18-2013, 05:49 PM   #11
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Neil, will you be running a 10 and a 10.5 or a 10 and a 11?
10/10.5

And, I agree, you can fit a 275 on a 9.5 et 22.

Neil
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      02-18-2013, 06:54 PM   #12
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I know it's too late now, but if I was concerned about cost I would have bought PSS's for the stock wheels which are more than adequate for novice/intermediate drivers and used the money that you spent on the Arc-8's for camber plates, brake pads, lines, fluid, and driving lessons.
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      02-18-2013, 07:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN
Quote:
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Neil, will you be running a 10 and a 10.5 or a 10 and a 11?
10/10.5

And, I agree, you can fit a 275 on a 9.5 et 22.

Neil
Thanks for the quick response. I was thinking the same setup. Waiting for the next apex group buy (e-c7). I plan on running a 275 and 295.
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      02-18-2013, 10:21 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by bdaddylo View Post
I know it's too late now, but if I was concerned about cost I would have bought PSS's for the stock wheels which are more than adequate for novice/intermediate drivers and used the money that you spent on the Arc-8's for camber plates, brake pads, lines, fluid, and driving lessons.
I am addressing the brakes with lines, fluid, and pads. Attending as many driving events I can. Leaning towards camber plates...

Wheels will be a nice addition. I love the stock wheels, but my opinion has always been that this car should have come with 18's. I think the anthracite color will look good on the bsm paint with black ind cosmetic pieces. Not to mention they will allow me to run wider rubber! The gb with $200 off and free shipping was too hard to pass up.

David with apex seems to think the 9.5et22 will allow for 275 in the front while maxing out the stock camber. I would love to go ahead and add camber plates, but its nice to know I can get by without them.

So add the new BFG rival to the list in 275/35 and 295/35. Pricing will be similar to the hankooks, but they won't be available for a few months.
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      02-18-2013, 11:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcrain View Post
David with apex seems to think the 9.5et22 will allow for 275 in the front while maxing out the stock camber. I would love to go ahead and add camber plates, but its nice to know I can get by without them.
With the stock front suspension, the area limiting wheel clearance is the front part of the fender liner which camber has no factor.

Adding more grip is good, but most would argue that your suspension should require upgrading as well.
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      02-19-2013, 11:52 AM   #16
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With the stock front suspension, the area limiting wheel clearance is the front part of the fender liner which camber has no factor.

Adding more grip is good, but most would argue that your suspension should require upgrading as well.
I experienced frequent (daily, every time I drove) rubbing with the factory liners. Thankfully the new ones BMW installed have eliminated this issue. Hopefully the new liners will allow for a more aggressive setup.

In a perfect world I would be adding a coilover setup, preferably utilizing JRZ RS1 dampers. But, I can't rationalize spending $4000 on a setup that I will likely under-utilize at this point not to mention the factory shocks have less than 10k miles on them. I figured wheels/tires/brakes would be a good starting point for my modifications.

So for now, lets avoid the conversation of what I should have done. Experience/opinions on tire setups would be greatly appreciated!
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      02-19-2013, 01:02 PM   #17
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The stock 1M suspension if hugely adequate for a stock setup. I wouldn't concern myself with this for a long while. Once you're in the advanced run group and you're running r-comps and if you are finding handling limitations due to the suspension then make a move. I've been really impressed with how good the factory setup is though.

If I were you, I'd get the camber plates and whatever tires you can afford. The RS3s are an awesome street/track tire, if you can afford them then get those. I wouldn't worry about the less optimal rain traction with them. If its raining on track work on your wet line with the adhesion they provide. If you’re on the street then take it easy in the rain. They will still drive adequately, just not as good as others. As little as it rains down here this would be low on my list of concerns.

If you do get the camber plates BJ will be able to help you install them and figure out a good street and track configuration.

Good luck!
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      02-19-2013, 01:30 PM   #18
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+1 for the new BFG Rival in 275/35 and 295/35 if you can wait that long.

Should be better than the RS3 (which I've run extensively) in every way. Looking forwards to getting a set.

The Z2 is supposed to be snappy at the limit in comparison, doesn't handle heat as well and is slower.

http://www.onehotlap.com/2013/01/bfg...-thickens.html
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      02-19-2013, 01:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcrain View Post
I bought a set of 18 in arc-8s in their most recent group buy. Went with the staggered setup (9.5/10.5). There are plenty of people running these wheels with F 265 and R 285 tires. I am trying to decide which tires would be best for my needs.

Some background: My 1M is my only car so it sees daily duty (~10-15 miles a day), and it takes me on road trips but the miles are still fairly low (~10,000 right now). The car also sees track duty (hopefully 10-15 days this year). I have been running the stock PS2s at the track and found them to be a great street tire and fine for my experience level at the track. I run in the intermediate groups, so by no means am I an expert capable of extracting maximum performance out of the car/tires. I live in Dallas, so I am willing to run an extreme performance tire year round.

So I am considering a tire that will serve the same dual purpose. Here are the three tires I am considering:

1. Hankook RS-3 in 265/35/18 and 285/35/18. These seem to be the consensus best performer in the category in the dry, but have some limitations in the wet. My shop quoted me ~$1100 a set.

2. Dunlop Direzza Z2 in 265/35/18 and 285/30/18. Brand spanking new tire, so minimal data. The z1 has been very popular and I can only assume these would be a step forward. ~$1200 for a set.

3. Federal 595-RSR in 265/35/18 and 285/30/18. Read a few "unprofessional" reviews which say they are a good tire but not as good as the RS-3 and the like. My shop seems to think these are the tires to go with for the price. The set will cost ~$750.

I don't want to cheap out, but that ~$400-500 in saving could go towards some camber plates. I am sure there are opinions on each, and I would love to hear them all.

Really I am asking whether you guys think I should take the chance on the federals or stick with the usual suspects in this category.

Any chance your shop has a clown or a shoe in it's name ?

EDIT: never mind.. I read further..

I got a recommendation from BJ for Federal tires as well. Of course then I got a dozen people trying to SHAME me out of buying Federal. " you can't put Federals on a BMW "

(The Hell i can't ! - I am thinking they would be great for the stock 19s when the car gets trotted out for pimp my ride type events like Cars and Coffee etc..... all they need to be is Black and Round and get me to the store and back )

That said.. my car has 14K on it now and I am still nursing along the street tires.. and to be honest.. I probably WILL cheap out on street tires for the stock 19s when the time comes.


How about a little redirect...

What wheels are we shopping for tires for? the Arc-8s you just got for track?
The 19s aren't going away are they? you will still have them for " winter" or road trip or " other" driving?

If so.. then NO WAY on the Federals.

Do NOT go with PS2 or PSS for a " track tire" when you have street wheels. Those are Street tires that can SURVIVE a track day, but what you need are Street tires that will do WELL on a track day, but can allow you to survive the drive HOME. If that's the case.. Go with the Dunlop Dizzy Z2, the RS-3 or the BFG- Rivals

All are designed with Track or Autocross day in mind... and you should be able to survive a rainstorm on the way home. I agree with Robert 100%. Anyone that complains about the RS-3 not being good for wet apparently must be from San Diego and not know how to drive in the WET. OOPS.. that counts for most Texans... hehehe.. Seriously though.. the RS-3 are fine in wet conditions but certainly not as good as the other options. If you favor the ultimate confidence in the wet then the Dizzy Z2 is probably the best bet.
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      02-19-2013, 01:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
The stock 1M suspension if hugely adequate for a stock setup. I wouldn't concern myself with this for a long while. Once you're in the advanced run group and you're running r-comps and if you are finding handling limitations due to the suspension then make a move. I've been really impressed with how good the factory setup is though.

If I were you, I'd get the camber plates and whatever tires you can afford. The RS3s are an awesome street/track tire, if you can afford them then get those. I wouldn't worry about the less optimal rain traction with them. If its raining on track work on your wet line with the adhesion they provide. If you’re on the street then take it easy in the rain. They will still drive adequately, just not as good as others. As little as it rains down here this would be low on my list of concerns.

If you do get the camber plates BJ will be able to help you install them and figure out a good street and track configuration.

Good luck!
Thanks Robert. Whats your DE schedule looking like this year?

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+1 for the new BFG Rival in 275/35 and 295/35 if you can wait that long.

Should be better than the RS3 (which I've run extensively) in every way. Looking forwards to getting a set.

The Z2 is supposed to be snappy at the limit in comparison, doesn't handle heat as well and is slower.

http://www.onehotlap.com/2013/01/bfg...-thickens.html
Thanks, good read. I had read a few reviews, all of which seemed to think the Rival would be the new street tire to beat. I really don't think I can wait that long though. Planning an event in April, May and COTA in June!

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Any chance your shop has a clown or a shoe in it's name ?

I got a recommendation for Federal tires as well. Of course then I got a dozen people trying to SHAME me out of buying Federal. you can't put Federals on a BMW (The Hell i can't ! - I am thinking they would be great for the stock 19s when the car gets trotted out for pimp my ride type events or Cars and Coffee etc.)
BJ has been very fair and honest with me, took my car there for a tech inspection on a whim because I liked the name. He did it for free and ended up being my instructor at my first track day. He is not always the easiest guy to get a hold of though! Going to call him this afternoon to get some pricing info for the tires and talk about brake pads/camber plates.

The price of the federals is awfully tempting. I am not trying to extract the fastest lap times, still learning the craft.
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      02-19-2013, 05:49 PM   #21
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BJ loves those Federals. I've seen him use them with good results on a Chump car. If you want to save a few bucks throw a set on and see how they do. You won't be as fast ultimately but as long as they have good feel and don't chunk out it's not a big deal. Sometimes a lower ultimate adhesion tire is better for learning the trade anyways. Allows you to get to the limits and understand what to do there at a more moderate speed.

If they do suck then just do a couple more events and trade out to something better. Tires are a short term relationship when you track your car a lot. If one set sux you'll be on to the next before too long

I'll be instructing COTA on Saturday only. I'm flying up to Canada on Sunday for a fishing trip that was planned long ago (talk about shitty timing). Won't be instructing the spring BMW DE as mini me is due to arrive right around that time. Might make an appearance with some libations later in the day just to see how it's going. Will race TWS, TMS, Hallett, and probably one long tow this year, but that will be it. With the new kiddo on the way I'm trying to curtail my extracurricular activities as much as possible. I don't foresee it happening for too long but I'ma trying
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      02-19-2013, 07:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertm View Post
If you're going to be doing 5-7 DE weekends a year you really need to get some camber plates. They will pay for themselves pretty quickly in reduced front tire wear. The more you go to the track and the faster you become the quicker you will wear out the front tires on stock setup. Its not unheard of to chunk a brand new set of front tires on a stock setup. If money is a constraint then get the camber plates and then whatever tires you can afford.

Also I wouldn't worry too much about wet weather performance. If it rains leave the traction control on and drive cautiously. It rains down here so seldomly it's really not that big a deal.



I currently have been to the following events on my most recent set of tires.. all these events on a single set of Hankook RS-3, 265/35/18... 18 x 10 Arc-8 wheels.

Heartland park DE and Autocross at Flat Out - June 26-28, 2012
BMW CCA Autocross July and August - TMS
DE at Hallet
BMW CCA Autocross September - Mineral Wells
DE and Autocross at Mid Ohio ofest - (3 days on track)
BMW CCA Autocross October - TMS
DE at Motorsports Ranch Cresson
BMW CCA autocross November
Member Day at ECR - (double duty count as 2 days)
DE at Texas World Speedway - Double Duty - December 2012
DE at Texas world Speedway - January 2013

approx 1200 street miles to and from the autocrosses and TWS

Prior to the DE at TWS in January they had 4-6 mm of tread depth.
Currently, my tires look to have about 35-40% left

so that's about 8 or so DE weekends plus about the same # of autocrosses including some VERY abusive pavement at Mineral Wells. but I have been able to rotate them all along and I am also running a square set up which also helps maximize tire life.

What do I think of the RS-3? they've been awesome...
What do I think of my camber plates?? BEST 1M (track) MOD.. Period.

Like robert said.. the camber plates will SAVE your tires and really allow you to extend the tire budget. if you can ONLY afford tires now... then no problem taking a flyer on the Federals... you likely will tear them up fairly quickly without camber plates, and the staggerred setup doesnt help either So you likely won't have the federals for anywhere near the life that i have gotten.. I would be surprised to see you make it a full season.
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Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 02-19-2013 at 07:25 PM.
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