|
|
|
09-04-2013, 11:17 AM | #23 |
Lieutenant General
2304
Rep 12,570
Posts
Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT
iTrader: (99)
Garage List F15 X5 xDrive35i [8.75]
E86 Z4 M [10.00] F10 550i (Retired) [9.17] F25 X3 xDrive35i (R ... [9.43] E82 135is (Retired) [9.50] E85 Z4 M (Retired) [9.41] E90 328i xDrive (Re ... [9.25] E86 Z4 3.0si (Retired) [9.08] |
Please don't take this the wrong way but whenever someone asks what a particular mod does, my first inclination or gut feeling is this person doesn't need it. You should first take the car on track in stock form and then later decide what 'shortcomings' you need to address, if any at all.
With that said, I think Dinan fixed camber plates are a good compromise for street/track duty. You won't get aggressive settings but you'll still be able to dial in -1.5* and the Dinan plates won't impact your warranty (if that's a concern of yours). |
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 11:18 AM | #24 | |
Lieutenant General
2304
Rep 12,570
Posts
Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT
iTrader: (99)
Garage List F15 X5 xDrive35i [8.75]
E86 Z4 M [10.00] F10 550i (Retired) [9.17] F25 X3 xDrive35i (R ... [9.43] E82 135is (Retired) [9.50] E85 Z4 M (Retired) [9.41] E90 328i xDrive (Re ... [9.25] E86 Z4 3.0si (Retired) [9.08] |
Quote:
Btw camber alone won't help much with the understeer. You'll need more rubber up front + camber. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 11:25 AM | #25 | ||
Major
157
Rep 1,409
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Edit: Maybe I should avoid investing in the 135i, and get a 2006-2007-2008 Z4M coupe with the S54 engine. I allways was tempted by this weird looking little 2-seat hotrod.
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
Last edited by dcaron9999; 09-04-2013 at 11:30 AM.. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 11:28 AM | #26 | |
Lieutenant General
2304
Rep 12,570
Posts
Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT
iTrader: (99)
Garage List F15 X5 xDrive35i [8.75]
E86 Z4 M [10.00] F10 550i (Retired) [9.17] F25 X3 xDrive35i (R ... [9.43] E82 135is (Retired) [9.50] E85 Z4 M (Retired) [9.41] E90 328i xDrive (Re ... [9.25] E86 Z4 3.0si (Retired) [9.08] |
Quote:
Check out the Dinan camber plates, they're on my wish list. Not sure if I'm ever going to track the e82, but if I do that would be my first and only mod (aside from running 245 square). |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 11:37 AM | #27 | |
Major
157
Rep 1,409
Posts |
Quote:
I will give this a shot next time, but only lower the hot pressure after one session (start with 36 cold, do one session, lower the "hot" pressure back to 36). Will do, but they seem less flexible than Vorshlog, yet I know that the Dinan/BMW partnership would be less troublesome for warranty work.
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 11:51 AM | #28 | |
Lieutenant General
2304
Rep 12,570
Posts
Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT
iTrader: (99)
Garage List F15 X5 xDrive35i [8.75]
E86 Z4 M [10.00] F10 550i (Retired) [9.17] F25 X3 xDrive35i (R ... [9.43] E82 135is (Retired) [9.50] E85 Z4 M (Retired) [9.41] E90 328i xDrive (Re ... [9.25] E86 Z4 3.0si (Retired) [9.08] |
Quote:
Less flexible because they are fixed. Vorshlag is adjustable. But truth is 90% of guys (me included) who have adjustable camber plates set it and forget it. I don't go back to a street setting. The real added benefit of the Vorshlag or GC plates is that you can run aggressive camber (above 3*) while still playing with caster. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 01:22 PM | #29 | |
Major
157
Rep 1,409
Posts |
Im only concerned about lapping at the track. This is where my understeer needs to be fixed, and tire outside edge wear need to be reduced.
Quote:
How about a UUC rear sway bar? Read in another forum that it should be the most inexpensive way to dial out the under-steer without changing camber (stiffen up the back anti-roll bar and you will oversteer more; stiffen up the front anti-roll bar and the car will understeer more).
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 01:27 PM | #30 | |
Lieutenant General
2304
Rep 12,570
Posts
Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT
iTrader: (99)
Garage List F15 X5 xDrive35i [8.75]
E86 Z4 M [10.00] F10 550i (Retired) [9.17] F25 X3 xDrive35i (R ... [9.43] E82 135is (Retired) [9.50] E85 Z4 M (Retired) [9.41] E90 328i xDrive (Re ... [9.25] E86 Z4 3.0si (Retired) [9.08] |
Quote:
Read my earlier posts, the Dinan fixed plates will only let you dial in about 1.5. If you want more you'll need M3 components but not sure how warranty works with other oem parts. I refuse to support UUC but that's not here nor there. You really should be increasing the spring rates instead of using the sway as means to stiffen the rear. But if you're willing to go with a UUC sway bar (or any aftermarket component) then you may as well go all out and get the Vorshlag plates. You said you wanted to stick with oem parts that'll be covered under warranty. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 02:09 PM | #31 | |
Major
157
Rep 1,409
Posts |
Quote:
Plan #1, adjust alignment on OEM suspension to gain ~ 1 degree of negative camber. Try this on the track. Plan #2, if not happy with Plan #1, order E92 M3 suspension arms for about $400CAD, and 2 hours of labor to gain up to 2 degrees of camber, while sticking with BMW parts, and not voiding warranty. They went through plan #2 with another customer, who seemed really happy with the results...
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
Last edited by dcaron9999; 09-07-2013 at 10:16 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 02:17 PM | #32 | |
Lieutenant General
2304
Rep 12,570
Posts
Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CT
iTrader: (99)
Garage List F15 X5 xDrive35i [8.75]
E86 Z4 M [10.00] F10 550i (Retired) [9.17] F25 X3 xDrive35i (R ... [9.43] E82 135is (Retired) [9.50] E85 Z4 M (Retired) [9.41] E90 328i xDrive (Re ... [9.25] E86 Z4 3.0si (Retired) [9.08] |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 02:20 PM | #33 |
Major
157
Rep 1,409
Posts |
Thanks for all the help and feedback. Learned a lot from you today. Maybe I will wind up with less understeer, and eventually be less embarassed (by not pointing by the entire group at my next lapping session)
This is the kit from Turner, which my local shop (VAG Motorsport in Quebec, Canada) would get. http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-12...t-e82-e9x.aspx I have booked an appointment with my local tire shop for an alignment on my stock suspension to help with my understeer. Spoke to a specialist who also laps, and he will adjust the front for max negative camber on stock set up (limited range), and also look at toe in front and rear to help with overall balance. I will also lower my front tire pressure next time on the track, in the middle of my session (pit area). Next phase is E92 M3 control arms, which are cheaper than I thought (~$400 USD). I may attempt this as a DIY, or hand it over to local indi shop.
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
Last edited by dcaron9999; 09-05-2013 at 07:46 AM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
09-04-2013, 08:09 PM | #34 |
Colonel
650
Rep 2,601
Posts
Drives: G81 M3 Touring, GR Supra GTS
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Perth
|
I endorse Dinan Camber plates and M3 control arms. With a good alignment set to -2.5 camber and zero toe, turn in will be transformed and you shouldn't chew through the tyres.
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-05-2013, 06:18 AM | #35 |
Colonel
234
Rep 2,643
Posts |
1.5 degrees front camber won't be enough. It will reduce the understeer problem, but you will still destroy the outside shoulder of your front tires. I had that experience using 1.3 degrees and nearly destroyed the front tires. 2.5 degrees should be better.
The car's handling will be a lot more neutral with the front negative camber added - so be careful! It would probably be a mistake to get a rear sway bar now, as it will shift the handling balance significantly and make it more demanding to drive. |
Appreciate
0
|
09-05-2013, 07:26 AM | #36 |
Brigadier General
461
Rep 4,531
Posts |
BMWs are weird.
with camber and adding a front sway bar (yes front) you will reduce understeer. Do not add a rear, as it will make the car tail happy and will want to rotate around on you. to dial out most understeer, you need to look for around -3*+ worth of camber |
Appreciate
0
|
09-05-2013, 07:55 AM | #37 | |
Major
157
Rep 1,409
Posts |
Quote:
I see you added a front strut bar to your Z4M as well. Did you do anything to the front camber settings? Im surprised that such a stiff car and track oriented car needed that too .
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-05-2013, 09:15 AM | #38 | ||
Brigadier General
461
Rep 4,531
Posts |
Quote:
I'm at -2.2 now with 0 toe upfront and it has greatly increased turn-in response and understeer, but I still have a good about and need to get the front end planted before getting back on the gas. I have my car setup for oversteer, so I like running a stock bar in the back and I've spent sometime with alignment settings getting it to where I want it so I can rotate the rear predictably when I need (it really helps for autocross). Our cars need around -3.5 to really eliminate all understeer. I still have massive outside wear and need to flip tires over winter for even wear. I'm limited on what I can do for my car given SCCA Solo rules for autocross, so sadly I cannot run coilovers or camber plates |
||
Appreciate
0
|
09-05-2013, 05:10 PM | #40 |
Major
157
Rep 1,409
Posts |
Even though the 2011 suspension was revised with linear springs, I still have a lot understeer with my stock 135i, which is also destroying the outside of my new tires. I exibit and notice most under steer on slow to medium speed tight turns. My setup is 225F/255R Bridgeston Potenza RE-11 highly rated tires (non RunFlats).
I would have preferred 225F/245R but Bridgestone does not produce the RE-11 or RE-11a in the 245 size. I could have gone with a 235/235 square setup, but I was not keen on reducing rears to 235, because I may be looking at increasing HP (Cobb flash tuning on the horizon). #1 - My first step is to ask my Tire Shop to dial in as much negative camber as possible in the front on stock suspension. I should reach about 1 degree which may not be enough, and next options will be needed. #2 - I will next upgrade to BMW E92 M3 front upper+lower control arms. Seems like a popular upgrade, but might still not be enough negative camber (1 more degree of camber). #3 - Camber plates (probably Dinan) to finalize the recipe, and reach a max of 3.0 to 3.5 degrees of negative camber. #4 - There is also debate on whether adding a beefier front strut bar (M3 or aftermarket) used on stock suspension will actually help or hinder understeering. Of course I will need an alignment done each time I touch the suspension, so also debating if I should do all (1-2-3-4) at once. I will likely take it step at a time. Unfortunately, there are only 4-8 more weeks left of lapping season where I live, then winter will be at my door and I will be switching to my winter setup (205-50R17 dedicated BMW style 73 alloy wheels). I will likely end up waiting until next spring for M3 control arms, and skip step #4 (front sway bar) altogether.
__________________
2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT | 255 square tire setup | Quaife 3.46 LSD | Diff lock down bracket | Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB | CDV delete | BMS Oil Tstat bypass | ER FMIC & CP | N54Tuning DP | GC Street Camber Plates | M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts | Manzo toe arms | Cobb Stg2 agressive tune | Hawk DTC70 brake pads | RB SS brake pistons | Goodridge SS brake lines | Custom brake cooling ducts
Last edited by dcaron9999; 09-05-2013 at 05:30 PM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
09-05-2013, 05:44 PM | #41 | |
Brigadier General
461
Rep 4,531
Posts |
Quote:
As well, on cold tires you'll not get the grip at all from any high performance tire. When I talk about cold, that is DD temperatures. I can spin my RS3s through 2nd gear on my Z4m with just daily driving. Once I get to temp the grip on another level. Just something to think about. The sway bar will only help with camber. If you can't dial out the front wheels you'll notice more understeer. The sway bar will also help keep the wheels from reducing camber when under load. Soft spring rates with poor camber is an equation asking to chew up tires, kind of nature of the beast. The question is though, how much are you really chew up your outside of the tires daily driving? |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-05-2013, 06:25 PM | #42 |
Colonel
140
Rep 2,234
Posts |
this is not the case for macpherson strut equipped cars like the 135.
__________________
"I would quote everything pixelblue said, but you've already read it. Take it from someone who's put the 1 through its paces"
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-05-2013, 06:37 PM | #43 | |
Brigadier General
461
Rep 4,531
Posts |
Quote:
With a normal McPherson strut that hasn't been lowered, the camber goes from positive to more negative as the lower A arm swings out straight, and then back to positive as it swings up. That swing up into positive camber is BAD. At that point the chassis is already leaned over so the tire may be starting to roll onto its sidewall. Changing the camber even more positive is just nasty. A big sway bar will prevent the body roll in the first place, and prevent the suspension compression on the outside which causes the positive camber change relative to the chassis. Lastly, you'll usually see BMWs lifting wheels off the ground with a big front bar. Typically, this is bad since you're losing a wheel and starting to do a tricycle...but the weight lost on the front gets transferred to the rear wheel on the same side of that car, which results in more grip on the back wheels which means you can power out. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-05-2013, 06:51 PM | #44 | |
Colonel
140
Rep 2,234
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
"I would quote everything pixelblue said, but you've already read it. Take it from someone who's put the 1 through its paces"
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|