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      02-02-2015, 09:50 AM   #1
katsooba
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1M\M3 REAR sway bar on the 135i?

Hi guys,

has anyone noticed that the 1M rear is 22.5mm thick vs the 11mm stock 135i sway bar??

i mean, the new F series 1\235i come with a 15mm rear sway bar.

i have upgraded the front sway bar to the E93 M3 28mm sway bar, and the rear subframe bushings to the M3 ones, but has anybody tried the 22.5mm rear sway bar?

most after market bars are 15-18 mm, but the 1M seems the most aggressive.

thoughts?
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      02-02-2015, 09:53 AM   #2
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It is a good idea ........ if you like your inside rear tire spinning in the air.



Not really a good idea until after installing an LSD.
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      02-02-2015, 10:45 AM   #3
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the LSD is on my list,
already have the powerflex differential bushings and the rear 1M frame control arms aswell.
i wonder why is the 1M rear sway is so thick, even compared to the aftermarket offerings.
maybe a 22.5mm rear sway bar is too big for the 1er?
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      02-02-2015, 02:20 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsooba View Post
i wonder why is the 1M rear sway is so thick, even compared to the aftermarket offerings.
It is likely hollow, unlike the aftermarket offerings. Stiffness may well be similar to a 20 mm solid bar, but at a lighter overall weight. This is just speculation, as I have no actual data on the M rear bar.
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      02-02-2015, 03:44 PM   #5
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A solid bar is not really any stiffer in torsional stiffness than a hollow bar. The most important dimension for torsional stiffness is the outside diameter. The stiffness is proportional to the 4th power of the radius. So, even the slightest increase in the outside diameter, makes a HUGE difference in the torsional stiffness of the bar.

Hollow bars are just more expensive to make, and weigh less.

Last edited by MightyMouseTech; 02-02-2015 at 03:49 PM..
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      02-02-2015, 03:44 PM   #6
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I wouldn't mess with a rear sway bar unless you also install a LSD.

I also feel that the front M3 sway bar MUST make the car understeer more - at the limit. But bellow the limit, I suspect most members feel a lot less sway - so that's why this is such a popular mod. But its not for me... since I like to push my car to the limit.
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      02-02-2015, 03:54 PM   #7
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Actually, it is possible that putting on a front bar actually increases the grip. With a strut front end, there is no camber change during compression or cornering. Putting on a stiffer front bar will increase the weight transfer to the outside front wheel, (transferred diagonally from the inside rear wheel) but that is less of a factor than reducing the camber change and keeping the outside tire flatter in the corner.

If the car had dual wishbones in the front and an actual camber change curve, I would say to never stiffen the front anti roll, like on a Honda. First thing we do when when we are racing Civics is to throw out the front sway bar.

But with strut front end, it is more important to reduce the camber change due to roll than worry about weight transfer.

You can have the worlds least amount of weight transfer, but if you are riding on the outside 1/2" of tire, the car still wont grip.

I will probably be putting the M3 front bar on my own car at some point.
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      02-03-2015, 12:33 AM   #8
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nice debate going on here

well, my car is setup like this
KW V3
front M3 control arms w/ camber pin mod
front M3 E93 sway bar
rear M3 bushings
225\40\18 - 255\35\18 Federal 595rs-r tires

my main driving with the car a on some very aggressive local roads, going from 30mph hair pins to 150mph twisty tight roads,

beforce the M3 bushings and the M3 sway bar the car had A TON of understeer, no matter what the situation was, i found myself fight the understeer like i was driving an Audi

after these two parts replaces, the front end grip went up VERY noticably, to the point i could just feel the back end twisting on long sweeping hight speed [120mph] turns.

an LSD is going in 100% no doubt, i am just waiting for the availability
i am waiting on the release of the MFactory clutch pack LSD for the DCT
and i already have waiting the POWERFLEX differential mounts bushings and the DIFF brace for added support.

my reasoning for this is that i noticed that the F series 135i comes with a 15mm REAR sway bar, and after driving the F series, it just felt that the rear end on that car wanted to play more, but with control,
mine just goes out and i have to guess whats going on with my tail

no going up from the noodle 11mm stock E82 rear sway bar to a 15mm can only do wonders for the car,
but the 22.5mm of the 1M seems pretty crazy!
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      02-03-2015, 09:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsooba View Post
nice debate going on here

well, my car is setup like this
KW V3
front M3 control arms w/ camber pin mod
front M3 E93 sway bar
rear M3 bushings
225\40\18 - 255\35\18 Federal 595rs-r tires

my main driving with the car a on some very aggressive local roads, going from 30mph hair pins to 150mph twisty tight roads,

beforce the M3 bushings and the M3 sway bar the car had A TON of understeer, no matter what the situation was, i found myself fight the understeer like i was driving an Audi

after these two parts replaces, the front end grip went up VERY noticably, to the point i could just feel the back end twisting on long sweeping hight speed [120mph] turns.

an LSD is going in 100% no doubt, i am just waiting for the availability
i am waiting on the release of the MFactory clutch pack LSD for the DCT
and i already have waiting the POWERFLEX differential mounts bushings and the DIFF brace for added support.

my reasoning for this is that i noticed that the F series 135i comes with a 15mm REAR sway bar, and after driving the F series, it just felt that the rear end on that car wanted to play more, but with control,
mine just goes out and i have to guess whats going on with my tail

no going up from the noodle 11mm stock E82 rear sway bar to a 15mm can only do wonders for the car,
but the 22.5mm of the 1M seems pretty crazy!
150MPH Twisty tight roads? Where are these roads? I must go.
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      02-03-2015, 11:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
I wouldn't mess with a rear sway bar unless you also install a LSD.

I also feel that the front M3 sway bar MUST make the car understeer more - at the limit. But bellow the limit, I suspect most members feel a lot less sway - so that's why this is such a popular mod. But its not for me... since I like to push my car to the limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Actually, it is possible that putting on a front bar actually increases the grip. With a strut front end, there is no camber change during compression or cornering. Putting on a stiffer front bar will increase the weight transfer to the outside front wheel, (transferred diagonally from the inside rear wheel) but that is less of a factor than reducing the camber change and keeping the outside tire flatter in the corner.

If the car had dual wishbones in the front and an actual camber change curve, I would say to never stiffen the front anti roll, like on a Honda. First thing we do when when we are racing Civics is to throw out the front sway bar.

But with strut front end, it is more important to reduce the camber change due to roll than worry about weight transfer.

You can have the worlds least amount of weight transfer, but if you are riding on the outside 1/2" of tire, the car still wont grip.

I will probably be putting the M3 front bar on my own car at some point.
MightyMouseTech spreading the truth! +1

I've always been told less roll in front end is better for our cars with the Macpherson strut. Every track spec'd BMW I've been in has always had a super level ride, minimal if not zero roll, from instructors to friends cars.

Even better than an anti-roll bar would be stiffer springs (obviously a limit on everything though), but that can lead to a punishing ride if you don't have the correct damper to handle the spring rates
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      02-03-2015, 11:58 AM   #11
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dtla1, i meant 150kph tight laned, and sweeping turns

its in Israel.

one of my favorite local roads
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Last edited by katsooba; 08-20-2021 at 07:04 AM..
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      02-03-2015, 03:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsooba View Post
dtla1, i meant 150mph tight laned, and sweeping turns

its in Israel.

one of my favorite local roads
That video shows bad driving and bad judgement, no lane discipline, no respect for others using the road, no anticipation of potential hazards, early apexes. You are a rolling disaster waiting to happen.
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      02-03-2015, 04:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
That video shows bad driving and bad judgement, no lane discipline, no respect for others using the road, no anticipation of potential hazards, early apexes. You are a rolling disaster waiting to happen.
gee, thanks
lucky we're not on the same continent then
though i admit, i shouldnt have gone for that ride with the condition my front tires were, i was practically driving on the wires on my front tires.

i dont need to explain any further to you
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      02-03-2015, 04:59 PM   #14
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The video looks like a good driving lesson from the driver of the blue Peugeot. The way he drives and the lines he chooses go a long way to reducing understeer and a it is safer too. If you have the opportunity to go to a track day I am sure you can improve your technique, especially with an instructor. If you learn to balance the car better and use trail-braking you will find so much less trouble with understeer.
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      02-04-2015, 02:34 AM   #15
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So, I will speak about what I've done and what I experimented, not hypothetical facts I read on the internet.

I did the front E93 M3 sway bar first and my car has a super feeling. Then, I decided to do the rear one, but not the standard 1M/M3, but the E93 M3 sway bar (26mm) ... I put some Powerflex Purple bushings too.

Results ... Amazing car, quite no more body roll. Now I mounted som KW v2 with linear springs (ST XTA coilovers) and that's even better (I have to test on the racetrack).

No rear tire spinning in the air even on the track. I'm just driving another car right now. So, here is my advice : if you have money and/or timer, do it, you won't regret it

Ho, and I have no LSD, not for the moment ...
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      02-04-2015, 07:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidiman View Post
So, I will speak about what I've done and what I experimented, not hypothetical facts I read on the internet.

I did the front E93 M3 sway bar first and my car has a super feeling. Then, I decided to do the rear one, but not the standard 1M/M3, but the E93 M3 sway bar (26mm) ... I put some Powerflex Purple bushings too.

Results ... Amazing car, quite no more body roll. Now I mounted som KW v2 with linear springs (ST XTA coilovers) and that's even better (I have to test on the racetrack).

No rear tire spinning in the air even on the track. I'm just driving another car right now. So, here is my advice : if you have money and/or timer, do it, you won't regret it

Ho, and I have no LSD, not for the moment ...
Still not convinced we should be doing a rear sway bar without an LSD lol
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      02-04-2015, 10:33 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_01 View Post
The video looks like a good driving lesson from the driver of the blue Peugeot. The way he drives and the lines he chooses go a long way to reducing understeer and a it is safer too. If you have the opportunity to go to a track day I am sure you can improve your technique, especially with an instructor. If you learn to balance the car better and use trail-braking you will find so much less trouble with understeer.
Hi john,

the driver in the blue Peugeut is a very experienced drivers,
his car is a turbo 306 gti VI that puts out about 330 bhp.
such a nice car and an even better driver.

i am still working on my public road lines, as you can see,
that fact that i had 90% worn front tires did not help my driving that day.
im not saying i did the right line choices, but trying to improve

we dont have any tracks in Israel to practice on, even the pro-driving school do it on public roads



as for the e93 REAR 26 mm antiroll, isnt that little TOO extreme?

i mean, the new F series 135i\235i come with front 25.5 and rear 15mm antirolls
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      02-04-2015, 02:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katsooba View Post
i am still working on my public road lines, as you can see,
that fact that i had 90% worn front tires did not help my driving that day.
im not saying i did the right line choices, but trying to improve

we dont have any tracks in Israel to practice on, even the pro-driving school do it on public roads

as for the e93 REAR 26 mm antiroll, isnt that little TOO extreme?
On roads like that in particular, some understeer is a really good thing. You have no room to save the car if the rear gets loose. Rear subframe bushings will reduce understeer and make the car feel more planted. You definitely don't need a larger rear bar.

As for public road lines - don't intentionally stray over the lines, except to make room for things on the side of the road. And when you do, consider it a mistake not and adventure, and work to eliminate the mistake. Raising your personal standards will slow you down a bit, but make you both safer and better.

Figure out how the "racing" line works and visualize every corner as a linking of a turn-in point, an apex, and an exit point. Make your steering and accelerator inputs smoother. If you ever have to add more steering input after you pass the apex you identified at turn-in, or if you run out of road at the exit, you have turned in too early. On roads like that, every turn needs to be a late apex. Critique yourself on every turn. Stop talking to or listening to your passenger. Find a mentor. Don't drive fast on bad tires.

Consider that every blind corner may have fallen rock or a cyclist or pedestrian on the side of the road and plan your corner accordingly.

Getting good without access to a track will be hard work, but you have some great roads to work with.
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      02-04-2015, 07:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx View Post
On roads like that in particular, some understeer is a really good thing. You have no room to save the car if the rear gets loose. Rear subframe bushings will reduce understeer and make the car feel more planted. You definitely don't need a larger rear bar.

As for public road lines - don't intentionally stray over the lines, except to make room for things on the side of the road. And when you do, consider it a mistake not and adventure, and work to eliminate the mistake. Raising your personal standards will slow you down a bit, but make you both safer and better.

Figure out how the "racing" line works and visualize every corner as a linking of a turn-in point, an apex, and an exit point. Make your steering and accelerator inputs smoother. If you ever have to add more steering input after you pass the apex you identified at turn-in, or if you run out of road at the exit, you have turned in too early. On roads like that, every turn needs to be a late apex. Critique yourself on every turn. Stop talking to or listening to your passenger. Find a mentor. Don't drive fast on bad tires.

Consider that every blind corner may have fallen rock or a cyclist or pedestrian on the side of the road and plan your corner accordingly.

Getting good without access to a track will be hard work, but you have some great roads to work with.
+1!!! would really like to reiterate: going over the painted lines is a bad habit! there are bicycle riders on that road and potentially oncoming traffic.

having said that, looks like a fun road to drive on. i am also interested in opinions/experiences of upgraded to larger front and rear sways.
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      02-04-2015, 08:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fe1rx
Quote:
Originally Posted by katsooba View Post
dtla1, i meant 150mph tight laned, and sweeping turns

its in Israel.

one of my favorite local roads
That video shows bad driving and bad judgement, no lane discipline, no respect for others using the road, no anticipation of potential hazards, early apexes. You are a rolling disaster waiting to happen.
+1

Around the 1:40 mark they pass a pedestrian on a bike. If they had caught him during a turn since they were taking each turn into the shoulder lane this would've gone very wrong.
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      02-04-2015, 08:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
If the car had dual wishbones in the front and an actual camber change curve, I would say to never stiffen the front anti roll, like on a Honda. First thing we do when when we are racing Civics is to throw out the front sway bar.

The suspension is actually not as bad as conventional wisdom says, although it is ride-height dependant. Rear camber gain is constant at 0.02° per mm of wheel travel over the entire range of travel (because it is a multi-link). Front is non-linear (because it is a strut), but provided you don't lower the car lower than about 325 mm front ride height, it is similar to the rear around ride height. Generally, with a strut suspension the lateral arm must be sloped down toward the wheel at normal ride height for things to to work right. This data was measured with no load on the suspension (no spring installed), and at track-level static camber settings, but the basic shape of the chamber vs. ride height is representative of other settings. This is one of a few reasons for not over-lowering your car.

I am not denying your basic point though - the more highly loaded the front suspension, the worse its camber gain gets.

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      02-06-2015, 10:46 AM   #22
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thanks everyone for sharing the knowledge!
great info and tips all around

this is what my tire looked like after that trip
the problem is, it was like that also before, i was just too lazy to switch to the new set.
did it the day after!

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