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      01-26-2009, 03:30 AM   #177
jkp1187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco View Post
Can I just confirm that when using the normal BMW brake pads the 135 and BMW performance pistons are fine. It's just that when using racing pads the ceramic inserts crumble.

I have only just purchased 1 second hand 130i and it is my first decent car after driving a 94 corolla (my shittty student car). I have never driven a track day but was planning on maybe doing one or two a year.
I was thinking about upgrading my brakes to the 135/performance brakes. If i use the standard pads on the upgraded brakes on a track one or two times a year, then the ceramic inserts should be fine???
That does seem to be the consensus. The only problems reported in this thread that I could see were people using aftermarket track pads in heavy track use. OEM pads didn't have any problems whether street or track.
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      01-26-2009, 03:55 AM   #178
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Yup it seems that the only problem is with using some sort of custom pad which weren't made for the 135i

read this

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222949
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      01-26-2009, 04:49 AM   #179
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Cheers, query answered
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      01-26-2009, 05:28 AM   #180
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Well the problem is the OEM pads goes soagy after just 3 laps. I drove WAY's car in a local track with his friend at the back and I ain't driving fast.

It is not OEM pad or not OEM pad. If it is the same thickness and the shim is the same - it should work the same way. I just wish they have better compound for it.
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      01-26-2009, 09:05 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takahashi View Post
Well the problem is the OEM pads goes soagy after just 3 laps. I drove WAY's car in a local track with his friend at the back and I ain't driving fast.
Just meant that no one with the OEM pads was having problems with the ceramic insert falling apart.
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      01-26-2009, 07:45 PM   #182
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It may be true that no one with factory pads have pistons that are falling apart, but the issue is, if you want to track your car, what do you do? As Takahashi said, OE pads are only good for 3 laps (at my local track anyway but of course varies according to how much braking is required on the different tracks). Anyone who is buying this car to use for weekend tracking better think twice about it. But you can always go the route I did.
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      01-27-2009, 02:02 PM   #183
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What you do is wait for properly developed pads and avoid ones that are custom cut.

I know it's a pain sometimes to wait for aftermarket companies to develop new products, but this shows the risk you take when using modified and/or custom parts.
The best thing to do is voice your interest to the pad manufacturers, and have everyone else you know do it as well. Maybe start a thread asking everyone who will want aftermarket pads to post their response and mention a brand they prefer. Once you have a thread that is long enough, send that to the pad manufacturer(s) as sort of a "petition" to request properly developed options.

The use of any OEM developed brake package, even with aftermarket pads/fluid/lines, & no matter how "high performance" BMW claims the car to be, will always have a limit for full track use, BUT the ceramic inserts are NOT the weak link. Brembo has been using that same insert material and design with Porsche for many years now including their Cup Car applications for their intended race series.
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      01-27-2009, 04:58 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takahashi View Post
Well the problem is the OEM pads goes soagy after just 3 laps. I drove WAY's car in a local track with his friend at the back and I ain't driving fast.
On my cool-down lap at a track session on Saturday I suffered catastrophic brake fade (pedal went to the floor), brake warning light and DSC warning light activated (stock calipers / pads). I nursed the car back to the pits to cool down, and after 20 minutes I noted that one of the stick-on wheeel weights had 'melted' off the rim, and the white BMW lettering on all 4 calipers had turned yellow. After about 1 hour I was able to drive (gently) home, the warning lights cleared and brake functionality gradually returned. I will now strip the calipers at the next opportunity to check for piston damage.
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      01-27-2009, 05:40 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonic View Post
On my cool-down lap at a track session on Saturday I suffered catastrophic brake fade (pedal went to the floor), brake warning light and DSC warning light activated (stock calipers / pads). I nursed the car back to the pits to cool down, and after 20 minutes I noted that one of the stick-on wheeel weights had 'melted' off the rim, and the white BMW lettering on all 4 calipers had turned yellow. After about 1 hour I was able to drive (gently) home, the warning lights cleared and brake functionality gradually returned. I will now strip the calipers at the next opportunity to check for piston damage.
was that with the stock fluid?
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      01-27-2009, 06:48 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonic View Post
On my cool-down lap at a track session on Saturday I suffered catastrophic brake fade (pedal went to the floor), brake warning light and DSC warning light activated (stock calipers / pads). I nursed the car back to the pits to cool down, and after 20 minutes I noted that one of the stick-on wheeel weights had 'melted' off the rim, and the white BMW lettering on all 4 calipers had turned yellow. After about 1 hour I was able to drive (gently) home, the warning lights cleared and brake functionality gradually returned. I will now strip the calipers at the next opportunity to check for piston damage.
Be careful when you do your inspection of the caliper.
There's no need to go any further than removing the caliper, and removing the pads to do a visual inspection.

Fade can almost be expected during extended track use with OEM pads and OEM fluid.
You essentially hit MOT of the pads, and boiled the fluid at the same time.

Fluid Fade = Soft Pedal
Pad fade = Loss of friction

Soft Pedal & Loss of Friction = Fluid and Pad Fade together.

Your next track event you're going to want to put in a high performance fluid with a higher wet and dry boiling point.
IE: Motul RBF600, ATE Super Blue, Brembo Sport 500, etc...

You'll also want to seek a pad that is more suited to track situations with a wider temperature range. there's not a lot of choice out there yet for your caliper but between Hawk and CarboTech I'm sure you can find something that is more suited for track use. You may find that it will be neccesary to have 1 set of street pads and a dedicated set of track pads. If you can find something that has friction at ambient temperatures for both street and track use, also make sure to ask if it is friendly on the disc.

Braided lines are another way to ensure a firmer pedal feel and will give you better feedback so you will be more aware of what your pads and discs are doing while you're on the track. Normally you will have early warning signs before "catastrophic brake fade". The lines may provide you with more of that predictable feel.
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      01-28-2009, 03:06 PM   #187
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Thanks for the advice, Gary!

Yes, I am running OEM brake fluid, and it sounds like my issue is much more a case of fluid boiling - I didn't notice much loss of "bite" as the pedal got progressively longer.

Will a higher spec brake fluid be noticeable to a dealer? If so, is it likely to affect my warranty or maintenance contract?

Also, any idea what would trigger the brake & DSC warning lights? Is the car detecting excessive pedal travel perhaps?
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      01-28-2009, 07:37 PM   #188
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Carbonic, you should be changing your fluid regularly too. I have always used Motul RBF600 and find it to be good enough for the sort of track work I do. My calipers also yellowed btw. One of the problem with our brakes is that there isn't much airflow going into it.
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      01-29-2009, 04:21 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonic View Post
Thanks for the advice, Gary!
Will a higher spec brake fluid be noticeable to a dealer? If so, is it likely to affect my warranty or maintenance contract?
Most brake fluids are coloured differently so you can detect when the new fluid has passed its way through all the lines.

That in turn will indicate you have changed your brake fluid - nothing more. Provided you stick to brake fluids that are compatible with other fluids (there are some that can't be mixed with other fluids) you are doing nothing wrong at all. Upgraded brake fluid itself doesn't put any additional strain or wear on any parts. It just has a higher wet/dry boiling point. That fact the OEM fluid boils early is not a reflection of safety margins, etc... just BMW saving themselves a buck as in everyday driving boiling the fluid is quite hard.

Hope that helps
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      01-31-2009, 10:06 AM   #190
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Hello guys.

I am following this post since i decided to upgrade my brakes to BMW Performance on my 130i hatch.

I haven't done any trackday events since i installed the Performance brakes.

I am using a 5.1 dot racing fluid (not Motul). I have of course the standard brake pads installed.

Maybe next Sunday i will do a "light" track event... and will film from inside the cockpit.

I am curious to see if they last 2 laps as some people say. I have my doubts.

I normally let the brakes cool down after 10/15 mins or so... that is mandatory i guess.

I always do this during trackdays.. unless i am chasing someone really hard so i try to "last" for one more lap to pass him and then cooldown.

Unless you have a "real" Brembo BBK this is the only way to prevent OEM brakes pads and OEM rotors from getting melted/warped and save top $$$$ (Euros in my case).

I guess if i do the full 20/25 mins of spirited driving/braking yes, the OEM pads would have melt and the OEM brake rotors would have warped.

This vid is from November.. with KW Clubsport, Quaife LSD and H&R sway bars kit installed but still with OEM calipers + EBC yellow pads + 5.1 dot brake fluids.

http://www.giacomino.biz/zsan/130i/ZENO.wmv (Save it to hard disk first...)

Did not have any fading problems at all (it was a full day at track).

How do you track your 135i ...?? Do you let it cool down after... 10 mins.. 15 mins.. 20 mins... or ?? Please share.

Bye, Carlo

PS - Any news about Brembo pads for the 135i/Performance calipers?

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      01-31-2009, 11:52 AM   #191
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Hi Karlenstein

In my case I'm a bit of an abusive bastard on the track - I generally go hard for about 20 minutes before cool down. I am tracking the car on a relatively short circuit (Zwartkops, see www.zwartkops.co.za, ambient temparatures are around 30 deg C and I am at an altitude of 1800m above sea level.
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      03-13-2009, 11:16 PM   #192
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Well, the only ultimate solution for us was to get some cooling in there. I think with the race pads, we were just getting everything way too hot.

So the guys at BMS in Santa Ana fabricated hose ducts up front and hose ducts onto the OEM dust shields (hehe, may as well make them good for something)



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      03-14-2009, 07:39 AM   #193
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scott2retro

Are you still running the same aftermarket pads you had when the problems started?
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      03-14-2009, 05:19 PM   #194
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scott2retro

Are you still running the same aftermarket pads you had when the problems started?
At this point in time, we are still using the custom machined Hawk HT-10s
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      04-02-2009, 03:45 PM   #195
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This past weekend at Buttonwillow we were boiling the fluid after halfway into our hotlap. The problem has gotten worse and we attribute that to the pads getting thinner and transfering more heat into to the piston/fluid quicker. We're just about at the end of our useable life of the Hawk HT-10's now.

We built ducting on our MR2 which helped with the fade. Scott, did the ducting solve your brake fade? And do you have some more pictures of how they did it?
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      04-02-2009, 03:46 PM   #196
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And wouldn't it be nice if we could get these titanium pistons?



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      04-02-2009, 07:39 PM   #197
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Scott, tire rack now sells the HT-10 straight from Hawk. And much cheaper than Turner.
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      04-04-2009, 09:32 AM   #198
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Quote:
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Hi Karlenstein

In my case I'm a bit of an abusive bastard on the track - I generally go hard for about 20 minutes before cool down. I am tracking the car on a relatively short circuit (Zwartkops, see www.zwartkops.co.za, ambient temparatures are around 30 deg C and I am at an altitude of 1800m above sea level.
Did you see any problems when you inspected the calipers?
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