BRAKE ISSUE WITH 135i CALIPERS

[JB135MDCT]

scottn2retro has some melted ones. I was suggesting you do a quick dry fit of your fronts to rear. Bias would be a problem in the end.

[scottn2retro]

Originally Posted by The1

anyone have a doner set of 135 front calipers for me to try this with as i'm unwilling to part with 3000 for the stoptech brakes this week?

i have a lot more i want to do before i get to my breaks. however if there were a donor set, i would actually try this.

P.S. i'm glad you were all able to come together and discuss this so quickly and voluntell me :P

I can't imagine any way that would work without some major fabrication capabilities. And for what BMW charges for their front calipers, you'd be better off just getting an aftermarket rear kit from Stoptech. If I was in a different race class, that's what I'd be doing.

You'd probably stand a better chance of putting e92 M3 rear brakes on there, but I haven't seen those.

[UdubBadger]

jesus, just found out about this... piggy bank will be saving for some stop techs for sure now.

[scottn2retro]

People have wondered why there are those bridges over the top of the front calipers so you can't slide the pads out the top to change them. I think it may be because the calipers are too long to have a opening that large in the top.

When I got my last set of new front pads, I also got some for our M3 race car that has the StopTech 355 kits (bear in mind, that is the largest kit I can get under my 18" wheels).

When I opened them up, I mistakenly thought the pads were for the other car. The 135i front pads were so much larger than the pads for my M3. There was such a difference, I wondered if Hawk had sent me the wrong pads for the M3 and immediately went to my spares drawer to double check.

When I pull my stuff out this weekend, I'll try to remember to get a shot of the 2 pads next to each other.

[macleod135]

Quick question: I had serious brake fade last weekend at VIR and had to take easy laps to let my brakes cool. I am looking for something that will hold up better at the track, but I don't have time (or really the desire to spend the money) on new brakes before my next event. I am already running ATE Typ200.

What pads can I use that will perform better at those high temperatures and not risk hurting my calipers?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I really would like to have some decent breaking without frying my brakes in my next track days at Summit Point at the end of October.

[UdubBadger]

Originally Posted by macleod135

Quick question: I had serious brake fade last weekend at VIR and had to take easy laps to let my brakes cool. I am looking for something that will hold up better at the track, but I don't have time (or really the desire to spend the money) on new brakes before my next event. I am already running ATE Typ200.

What pads can I use that will perform better at those high temperatures and not risk hurting my calipers?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I really would like to have some decent breaking without frying my brakes in my next track days at Summit Point at the end of October.

I'd like to know the answer to this too...

[scottn2retro]

Originally Posted by macleod135

Quick question: I had serious brake fade last weekend at VIR and had to take easy laps to let my brakes cool. I am looking for something that will hold up better at the track, but I don't have time (or really the desire to spend the money) on new brakes before my next event. I am already running ATE Typ200.

What pads can I use that will perform better at those high temperatures and not risk hurting my calipers?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I really would like to have some decent breaking without frying my brakes in my next track days at Summit Point at the end of October.

Well, I'm not sure there is any way to put that much heat and braking stress into the front brakes without something happening to the front calipers (piston top cracking, seals melting, finish changing colors). Even the color of my rear calipers has changed.

I have heard a rumor the car manufacturers are starting to use paints that change colors above certain temperatures as a method to refuse warranty claims.

The real solution is an aftermarket brake upgrade (just as it is pretty much on any high performance car) from somebody like StopTech.

[macleod135]

The problem is I just need better pads to hold me over for my next event which is a little over a month away. I can't order and install a StopTech system before my next event and I don't want to fry my stock calipers. Do you have any advice on which pads to use that will fit it perfectly without doing caliper damage? I still expect brake fade, but just longer before it fade sets in.

[Olivier_TFE]

Originally Posted by macleod135

The problem is I just need better pads to hold me over for my next event which is a little over a month away. I can't order and install a StopTech system before my next event and I don't want to fry my stock calipers. Do you have any advice on which pads to use that will fit it perfectly without doing caliper damage? I still expect brake fade, but just longer before it fade sets in.

I'm using Project Mu pads since 1 year and 100% OK.
You have to find a provider in USA...
http://www.project-mu.com.au/en/products/pad_ns.php

And put the sheems Titanium to protect the calipers: http://tispeed.com/index.php?main_pa...products_id=92

[bradford]

Originally Posted by macleod135

The problem is I just need better pads to hold me over for my next event which is a little over a month away. I can't order and install a StopTech system before my next event and I don't want to fry my stock calipers. Do you have any advice on which pads to use that will fit it perfectly without doing caliper damage? I still expect brake fade, but just longer before it fade sets in.

"Track" pads simply remain effective at a higher temperature than the OEM ones. However, this means that they have the ability to put lots more heat into the calipers (and rotors, which are your glass ceiling at this point). There's a really easy way to save the OEM calipers: take it easy on the brakes. Of course, easier said than done...

Realistically though, if you're running in a novice or intermediate run group it's highly unlikely that you can even attain the speeds required to nuke the OEM ceramic piston pucks and bake the caliper finish. I wouldn't sweat it unless you're *REALLY* hammering them.

[scottn2retro]

Originally Posted by macleod135

The problem is I just need better pads to hold me over for my next event which is a little over a month away. I can't order and install a StopTech system before my next event and I don't want to fry my stock calipers. Do you have any advice on which pads to use that will fit it perfectly without doing caliper damage? I still expect brake fade, but just longer before it fade sets in.

Try the Hawk HPS (maybe HP Plus), but it's the one they make for the 135 front calipers that is both a street and track pad.

[macleod135]

Originally Posted by bradford

"Track" pads simply remain effective at a higher temperature than the OEM ones. However, this means that they have the ability to put lots more heat into the calipers (and rotors, which are your glass ceiling at this point). There's a really easy way to save the OEM calipers: take it easy on the brakes. Of course, easier said than done...

Realistically though, if you're running in a novice or intermediate run group it's highly unlikely that you can even attain the speeds required to nuke the OEM ceramic piston pucks and bake the caliper finish. I wouldn't sweat it unless you're *REALLY* hammering them.

I am in the novice group and I would have a agreed, but I had serious brake fade last track session and it took about two slow laps with little to no braking to get them back. That made me think that I had gotten them really hot. I am pretty sure it wasn't the fluid because I had flushed them the week before with ATE Typ 200.

Anyways, thanks for all of the help guys. I really appreciate the advice and I will look into getting some track pads for my next event.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by bradford

The problem with the OEM calipers is that the throat is too narrow. You simply can't get a rotor with sufficient thermal mass in there. The Stoptechs would be too thick. I don't have the exact specs on the OEM throat width but it is very visible looking at the OEM rotor. It's a decent diameter at 13.3" but it's skinny as hell. Looks like a record - makes the Stoptech one look like a manhole cover.

If you want to stick with the OEM setup (I sure didn't want to drop the 3 Gs on Stoptechs, but I'm a very aggressive track driver) your best bet is good fluid, Ti plates, try to stuff a duct in there (not really an option for me on a daily driven car that needs to be able to parallel park and still fit 245mm R-comps up front), and remove the OEM dust shields (or trim them and fashion a flange to use with the ducts to deliver air to the center of the rotor)

My pistons shattered last weekend, after a few days at Watkins Glen. Going to see if there is finally a rebuild kit (heard there was not), but if not, then I'm pressing to get the calipers replaced, like bradford was able to.

I went with HP+ and ATE 200 fluid. Thought I would be fine in the A Group, but I guess not. Huge amounts of fade, and I could feel the pistons crushing, by the pedal dropping a 1/4" in at times, during hard braking.

[larryn]

There is a fix, if this should happen to you: I created a new thread with the fix, to make it easier to find.

[jkp1187]

Just wondering if switching to the setup in the 1M would be the way to go in future?

"Brake hardware is shared with the current M3, and consists of 14.2-inch cast-iron ventilated front discs, 13.8-inch ventilated rear discs and single-piston sliding calipers all around. This is a notable upgrade over the 13.3-inch front and 12.8-inch rear rotors on the 135i."

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/1-seri...-series-m.html

[pixelblue]

The M3 brakes are known to be inadequate as well. Not much of an upgrade there

[The1]

will those brakes even fit out stock 18s since the M3 has wider offsets?

[spk74]

Are the ceramic pistons are breaking because of heat, pressure, or both?

If you use street pads (like HP+) that lose effectiveness at a lower temperature (compared to track pads) and have to mash down on the brake pedal, could that added pressure break the pistons? Watkins Glen has some serious braking zones (i.e. where the NASCAR guys have warped the track surface). But could you have been better off (would the pistons be OK) if you'd used HT-10's or a DTC pad?

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by spk74

Are the ceramic pistons are breaking because of heat, pressure, or both?

If you use street pads (like HP+) that lose effectiveness at a lower temperature (compared to track pads) and have to mash down on the brake pedal, could that added pressure break the pistons? Watkins Glen has some serious braking zones (i.e. where the NASCAR guys have warped the track surface). But could you have been better off (would the pistons be OK) if you'd used HT-10's or a DTC pad?

The ceramic piston caps reduce heat transfer into the caliper pistons. In doing so, they also retain a higher temperature on the pad side, so they run hotter themselves. It's a tricky thing to get heat transfer rates correct enough so that each different material does not exceed its maximum temperature, yet also uses the thermal conductivity of other parts to cool the whole lot. We need to remember that the aluminum caliper does a bit of work in cooling the brake pad. Ceramic piston caps somewhat reduce the effectiveness of that function. If you can cool the pads from behind (like is done with racing calipers), then slowing the heat transfer into the caliper is a good idea. But when the heat has nowhere to go, you run the risk of failed components.

But to directly answer your question, it is the heat that kills them.

Chris

[spk74]

OK, I just ordered the titanium shims, and still plan to use HT-10's at VIR. Are brake ducts a good idea?

Was it scott or berk (or both) who made brake ducts? Was it out of the OEM splash guards? Does anyone sell a kit, or do you have spares you'd sell me?

[pixelblue]

You can also bend the splash guards to divert more air to the rotors. Cheap and effective

[wafflestomp]

subscribed....interested in bending splash guards too.