BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

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      09-12-2010, 12:19 AM   #1
felixcat
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Reason of Limited Production Conjecture

Here is my personal conjecture, based on some 'official released' info. So if you disagree with it, please do not flame me.

Fact 1: SCOTT said the current 1M is a time and budget limited project. So limited that they even can not develop the DCT and trick the N55.

Fact 2: SCOTT mentioned that the 1M is designed to use some already exist parts on the shelf.

Fact 3: parts sources - current 1 series, M3, N54 engine

My conjecture: BMW do not want to 'invest' on 1M. Here invest = make new dedicated parts in bulk quantity. We know that the current M3 is close to its lifecycle ending, and also the 335is. Therefore for the 3 series section, parts procurement plan is already set and done. BMW already has an idea how many parts are left in stock. I think the number of 2700 unit reflects how many parts BMW still left after producing all the current generation of 128, 135 and 3 series.

Especially since engine is the most mystery part, I guess the 1M will use the 335is engine. This means after producing all 335is, BMW still has around 2700 unit of the modified N54 engines.

Anyway, it is clever to promote a rushed done project using the 'limited production' trick.
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      09-12-2010, 02:15 AM   #2
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I believe felixcat believes BMW is limiting production to consume left over parts from the current e82 and e92 models. But this is backwards. They've already spent the R&D, tooling and other expenses. So at this point the costs are minimal and profit can be maximized.

The rationale for limiting production is marketing. They must be trying to maximize pre ordered vehicles, the side effect of which is to create a sense of exclusivity which further drives demand for the vehicle. This will help firmly establish the 1M as a desirable M product and drive sales of the next generation 1M.
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      09-12-2010, 10:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR View Post
I believe felixcat believes BMW is limiting production to consume left over parts from the current e82 and e92 models. But this is backwards. They've already spent the R&D, tooling and other expenses. So at this point the costs are minimal and profit can be maximized.

The rationale for limiting production is marketing. They must be trying to maximize pre ordered vehicles, the side effect of which is to create a sense of exclusivity which further drives demand for the vehicle. This will help firmly establish the 1M as a desirable M product and drive sales of the next generation 1M.
X1 to what you said....

I had the feeling I was the target audience fo the 1M and was busy saving foe ED next summer. Seeing how exclusive these cars are, along with production and marketing to drive up demand makes me glad I already went with a 2011 135i. I want to see one of these cars when they show up, and will congratulate the owner, but will save my money now for the F20 1M.
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      09-12-2010, 10:16 AM   #4
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What you are looking at just now is what's known as a "Test run" it is a project that has been put together in the shortest time available and as a project it has limits and a strict budget.

To actually get board approval for this car , The project team had to do a lot of arm twisting especially this late in the day, had the original idea of an E82 M happened much sooner then we would not be so limited in scope and execution.

But this car, the E82 is seen as the test run for the next generation model that BMW have commenced working on especially in preliminary planning with the engine and the package that the F22 will inherit.
The F22 has the time and it has a much bigger budget for expression of freedom in relation to develop what they should offer with the E82 in which they couldn't.

From a marketing view the car itself has a limited budget so that is why it is more discussion and debate with enthusiasts that are driving the 1er M Coupe.
The issue of limited production involves the reaction to the car. Over at M-Power.de we have over 10,000 pieces of interest , when the specifications come out we estimate we will lose maybe 25-30% of interest due to the deletion of a Double-Clutch-Transmission and possibly limited production and Price.

As of now it is limited but it will be watched closely especially in relation to demand , right now the greatest amount of interest is Germany , followed by the USA and China.

With the move to a four cylinder for the F22 1M Coupe. The Future 1M and
M3 can be seperated a lot more individually between four and six cylinders which is what the intention is.
As of now some say power output is too close not to want one but the other.
There are other elements , however which is a different story.
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      09-12-2010, 10:33 AM   #5
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^ Nice so no worries about limited production then
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      09-12-2010, 11:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameraeye View Post
^ Nice so no worries about limited production then

thats not how I read it. If I interpret correctly, BMW is gauging production based on 'interest'. Interest was at 10,000, but they expect it to drop to7,000 due to 'possibly limited production' and other reasons. Now, the question is: does BMW build to THAT 'interest' and offer 7,000? Or do they build half of that (~3,500) to ensure they sell all of them?
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      09-12-2010, 11:20 AM   #7
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SCOTT.

How do you guys see the UK market? Lets say there is only 2700 being made at first. How many would you say would come into the uk? 100? 200?

thanks man
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      09-12-2010, 01:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
...With the move to a four cylinder for the F22 1M Coupe. The Future 1M and M3 can be seperated a lot more individually between four and six cylinders which is what the intention is.
As of now some say power output is too close not to want one but the other. There are other elements , however which is a different story.
Ohhh wait!!!!

So... let me get this straight:

The 1M will get a 340-ish N54 twin turbo six.

The new M3 will also be powered by the same engine as the new 1M engine - soon to be unveiled. Probably based off the N55 but with a larger turbo for more top end rev performance. ?

And the 2nd generation 1-er (F-22) will only get a turbo four!?!?!?

So... if you want a six you got to buy a M3? Whaaat!!!!


All the German car mags have been reporting that the top 1er models will still get RWD and turbo sixes. ie: 130i and 135i. Even though the "base models" will be FWD amd four and three cylinders!

So... Scott is saying that the top F22 mode(s) will be a four banger only? Sorry but thats a deal breaker for me on the F22!
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      09-12-2010, 02:32 PM   #9
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There is a bit of false reporting when it comes to the next series of 1 especially within the Front Wheel drive / Rear Wheel drive argument.

All direct replacements for the 1 series remain Rear Wheel Drive.
The upcoming sub- 1 series BMW will be BMW's only venture into Front Wheel drive because it is shared with the next MINI.

Current six cylinder engines are being replaced with similar output , but increased efficiency and less weight and to do this will see a line of new turbo-charged four cylinder engines. In Europe BMW have always offered four cylinders and this is progression to accomodate future challenges and legislation. I would say it will difficult but some have to comply with that there will be a BMW in the US Market with four cylinders replacing six cylinders.

Since it is early days the strategy for 1M (F22) is only on paper and they have compiled a "shopping list" of what they want to do for the car that is nigh impossible to do on this outgoing car.

The next 1er Coupe is certainly a right candidate for M treatment as they haved really focused on making the Coupe and Cabrio more like the 2002 in design elements. But the key is one difference that will come with all other 1er models.
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      09-12-2010, 02:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
Ohhh wait!!!!

So... let me get this straight:

The 1M will get a 340-ish N54 twin turbo six.
Yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
The new M3 will also be powered by the same engine as the new 1M engine - soon to be unveiled. Probably based off the N55 but with a larger turbo for more top end rev performance. ?
It's not the same engine because the M3's engine -- as you said -- will be based on the N55. It will also get some serious modifications before it finds its way into the M3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
And the 2nd generation 1-er (F-22) will only get a turbo four!?!?!?
...
All the German car mags have been reporting that the top 1er models will still get RWD and turbo sixes. ie: 130i and 135i. Even though the "base models" will be FWD amd four and three cylinders!

So... Scott is saying that the top F22 mode(s) will be a four banger only? Sorry but thats a deal breaker for me on the F22!
We're talking about a car that's four years away (at least), so they haven't finally decided on its engine yet. The crucial question will be whether the F22 135i will be a six or a four. I completely agree with you that BMW won't offer a four banger M alongside an N55 powered 135i.


Best regards,
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      09-12-2010, 04:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
What you are looking at just now is what's known as a "Test run" it is a project that has been put together in the shortest time available and as a project it has limits and a strict budget.

To actually get board approval for this car , The project team had to do a lot of arm twisting especially this late in the day, had the original idea of an E82 M happened much sooner then we would not be so limited in scope and execution.
How much sooner are you talking about?

I seem to recall you (or someone else with your name), talking on this forum about the M1 as far back as April '07.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...73&postcount=9

Surely it doesn't take BMW that long to get around to developing an M car. If the 1M Coupe is brought over in April 2011, that will be 4 years from the referenced post, to delivery. Surely BMW thought about an M version long before then (April '07).

Sorry for calling you Shirley.
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      09-12-2010, 04:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
But the key is one difference that will come with all other 1er models.
I remember getting drunk back in 1998/1999 with an admittedly beautiful ex of mine, half drunk, lying in bed. She had her hand on my crotch and she said - 'if we get back together, I'll blow you.'

I couldn't get back together with her because I couldn't forgive her for something she had done, and she wasn't up for negotiating on the terms either as it turned out.


My balls haven't felt the same way since reading that sentence of yours Scott26.
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      09-12-2010, 05:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
Ohhh wait!!!!

So... let me get this straight:

The 1M will get a 340-ish N54 twin turbo six.

The new M3 will also be powered by the same engine as the new 1M engine - soon to be unveiled. Probably based off the N55 but with a larger turbo for more top end rev performance. ?

And the 2nd generation 1-er (F-22) will only get a turbo four!?!?!?

So... if you want a six you got to buy a M3? Whaaat!!!!


All the German car mags have been reporting that the top 1er models will still get RWD and turbo sixes. ie: 130i and 135i. Even though the "base models" will be FWD amd four and three cylinders!

So... Scott is saying that the top F22 mode(s) will be a four banger only? Sorry but thats a deal breaker for me on the F22!
Most people on here don't remember when the E21 came to the US, and the only engine available over here was the 4 cylinder. BMW never brought its really great 323i over. (a few of us renegades brought over some grey market 323i cars.) In fact the E21 3 series shown in this recent commercial is the 6 cyl 323i (notice the European bumpers on the E21). A bit deceiving of BMW IMO



Then when the E30 3 series came to the US, there were no 4 cylinder cars available in the US from '85-90 (except the M3). '91 there was a 318is 4 banger.

Now we are headed back to high performance 4 cyl turboed cars. What goes around, comes around.

Many people hold the E30 M3 in high regard, almost god like, but I had an E30 M3. The engine was not powerful, and it was buzzy. I prayed for the day BMW would bring in a DOHC 6, which they did in the '95 M3. To me my '95 M3 Lightweight was the best driving BMW ever. A pinnacle car. I loathe hearing about going back to 4 cylinder cars.

I think the time is now to get your favorite 6 cylinder 1 series, the forth coming 1M Coupe may well be another pinnacle car for BMW.
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      09-12-2010, 10:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
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I completely agree with you that BMW won't offer a four banger M alongside an N55 powered 135i.
I am not so sure it won't happen, south. As pointed out just above by another board member, BMW offered the E30 M3 with the now-famous S14 four cylinder along side E30 3 series models with the I6, such as the 325i.

By the way, since the new 2L turbo 4 will apparently be called the N20, I suppose the F22 1M engine will be called the S20. My prediction is around 380hp. BMW is going to amaze with the volumetric efficiency of these new M engines.
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      09-13-2010, 07:03 AM   #15
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Op that thinking is wrong as automakers are required to produce parts for discontinued cars for ten years after the discontinuation. It's simply not a well we have these parts lying around type deal.
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      09-13-2010, 09:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
What you are looking at just now is what's known as a "Test run" it is a project that has been put together in the shortest time available and as a project it has limits and a strict budget.

To actually get board approval for this car , The project team had to do a lot of arm twisting especially this late in the day, had the original idea of an E82 M happened much sooner then we would not be so limited in scope and execution.

But this car, the E82 is seen as the test run for the next generation model that BMW have commenced working on especially in preliminary planning with the engine and the package that the F22 will inherit.
The F22 has the time and it has a much bigger budget for expression of freedom in relation to develop what they should offer with the E82 in which they couldn't.

From a marketing view the car itself has a limited budget so that is why it is more discussion and debate with enthusiasts that are driving the 1er M Coupe.
The issue of limited production involves the reaction to the car. Over at M-Power.de we have over 10,000 pieces of interest , when the specifications come out we estimate we will lose maybe 25-30% of interest due to the deletion of a Double-Clutch-Transmission and possibly limited production and Price.

As of now it is limited but it will be watched closely especially in relation to demand , right now the greatest amount of interest is Germany , followed by the USA and China.

With the move to a four cylinder for the F22 1M Coupe. The Future 1M and
M3 can be seperated a lot more individually between four and six cylinders which is what the intention is.
As of now some say power output is too close not to want one but the other.
There are other elements , however which is a different story.
PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE

If it is into high 5x xxx - then you will have customers moving to M3, and we know it won't be less than 135i. Limited production will move your price point up, but at what cost.
I gather you will sell 10 times more 1M cars at the price point that starts in 4X XXX and end's up in 5X XXX. Let's face it at 50k, you're not giving it away.
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      09-13-2010, 10:32 AM   #17
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If you go back , a long way back you can see I discuss the possibilities for a
1M back before the actual launch of the 1er Coupe when the plan was to use existing versions of the E46/Z4M or /E46 CSL engine in the car but there were many aspects against the car be it in weight and price, plus back then we did not have a core market for such a car as we do now.

And we didnt have Dr.Segler in the driving seat , It is him that has steered this project in it's current form.
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      09-13-2010, 10:53 AM   #18
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Well im looking for a smaller ,lighter version of the M3 about 1 notch down in price from the 3. And its not that i cant pay m3 prices but its to damn big and heavy. Everything else about the m3 in perfect in my opinion.
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      09-13-2010, 12:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
...


We're talking about a car that's four years away (at least), so they haven't finally decided on its engine yet. The crucial question will be whether the F22 135i will be a six or a four. I completely agree with you that BMW won't offer a four banger M alongside an N55 powered 135i.


Best regards,
south
i said it before; a 4cyl 1m spells the end of 6cyl 1ers, imho.
scott has previously written that the sub-m 1er will be the tii and that should have a 240hp 4cyl; logically this would be the new "135", so i don't see where any 6cyl. would fit in the new lineup; it'll be:

1m: 4cyl. hp??? 300 or so but much lighter than e82
tii: 4cyl. 240hp
the rest of the lineup
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      09-13-2010, 01:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
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, plus back then we did not have a core market for such a car as we do now.
What defines a core market? And why didn't the core market exist back then?

I myself, would have been in the market if I knew aa 1M was available. in '07 I sold my E46 M3, and bought a Cayman S, since there was no availabe M car that I wanted on the horizon. I think if BMW had looked for it, a core market was available. I think the economic downturn caused BMW to not consider a core market. But it was there in my opinion.
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      09-13-2010, 01:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
I just want a spartan, modern E30 M3, not a bloated luxury M3.. the 1M will be a driver's car.
Such a car is no longer attainable...Call it progress.
What can be done is attempt replicate the driving style which is what the 1M sets out to do.

Even if such a car exists the US Market would not want a stripped out back to basics car nor would they sacrifice luxuries and comfort.
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      09-13-2010, 01:12 PM   #22
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So Scott back in 2006 or 2007 BMW didntthink that there was a market for a sub M3 M car butthey did think that they're was a market for a pair of behemoths with an M badge?

Is BMW dumb or do you think we are?
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