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      03-02-2011, 01:29 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vtec Abuser View Post
Mmmm, that's a strange one that..
My Golf has the DSG box (same as DCT) and I would say the exact opposite to that mate.
For example, when doing a straight line drag, the 1st to 2nd change is probably the gear where you lose the most momentum when changing with a manual box. Then 2nd to 3rd and so on. The higher gears is where you have less of an advantage with dual clutch, as the car is going that quick and carrying that much momentum anyway, someone with a quick shift in a manual won't really lose much at all.
The dual clutch boxes help not just with the quickness of the shift, but the fact that there is no let up in acceleration, the nose of the car doesn't drop on each change and there's no loss of boost/lag. Something I have found to be most noticiable on a MT car when doing the first few changes (1st to 2nd / 2nd to 3rd ) as you are not carrying enough speed or momentum to help you at that stage.
Could be wrong though..

Actually what you are saying makes complete sense. I am not saying that I know all that is just what I understood from the video, and after reading tons of cases of manuals keeping up with DCT's I would think that would not be possible in your case even with a perfect manual driver.
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      03-02-2011, 01:41 PM   #46
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Your explanation makes sense and you may be entirely correct as what I experienced supports your point. It's all a driver's race through the first few gears. If you manage to jump ahead, the higher the speed the tougher it is for the car behind to close the gap. As I said, from a dig I pulled a full car length ahead an it did not change until I hit the brakes.

Other factors such as my car being lighter may have played a role - I drive a modestly equipped car, and my friend's car has all options plus DCT. Take into account a 60 lb heavier transmission, power seats, navi equipment, blah blah blah and we are easily talking about a good extra 100 pounds if not more.

Who knows!? But the results were very surprising indeed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vtec Abuser View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries932 View Post
If you are a really good manual driver you will be able to keep up with a DCT to a bit past 60...it is after that that DCT makes all the difference.

Their was an explaination of this when DCT first came out on the M3, and from what the video explained DCT has no drop back due to shift time..this is more noticable the faster you go...because the faster you go the faster your speed decreases when you take your foot off the gas.

Here is the video that I am talking about.
Mmmm, that's a strange one that..
My Golf has the DSG box (same as DCT) and I would say the exact opposite to that mate.
For example, when doing a straight line drag, the 1st to 2nd change is probably the gear where you lose the most momentum when changing with a manual box. Then 2nd to 3rd and so on. The higher gears is where you have less of an advantage with dual clutch, as the car is going that quick and carrying that much momentum anyway, someone with a quick shift in a manual won't really lose much at all.
The dual clutch boxes help not just with the quickness of the shift, but the fact that there is no let up in acceleration, the nose of the car doesn't drop on each change and there's no loss of boost/lag. Something I have found to be most noticiable on a MT car when doing the first few changes (1st to 2nd / 2nd to 3rd ) as you are not carrying enough speed or momentum to help you at that stage.
Could be wrong though..
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      03-02-2011, 02:50 PM   #47
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Quote:
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The only thing that is better is the TWIN TURBO. other than that, the N55 is a better motor. The 1M used the N54 due to timing as mentioned above. The N55 will be the new M3's powerplant. I think that says what motor BMW thinks is better. Cute picture and caption. But so wrong, its comical.
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      03-02-2011, 03:16 PM   #48
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The only thing that is better is the TWIN TURBO. other than that, the N55 is a better motor. The 1M used the N54 due to timing as mentioned above. The N55 will be the new M3's powerplant. I think that says what motor BMW thinks is better. Cute picture and caption. But so wrong, its comical.

The forged bottom end of the N54 is nice too...
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      03-02-2011, 03:55 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
Your explanation makes sense and you may be entirely correct as what I experienced supports your point. It's all a driver's race through the first few gears. If you manage to jump ahead, the higher the speed the tougher it is for the car behind to close the gap. As I said, from a dig I pulled a full car length ahead an it did not change until I hit the brakes.

Other factors such as my car being lighter may have played a role - I drive a modestly equipped car, and my friend's car has all options plus DCT. Take into account a 60 lb heavier transmission, power seats, navi equipment, blah blah blah and we are easily talking about a good extra 100 pounds if not more.

Who knows!? But the results were very surprising indeed!
From a dig you are !00% corect it's a driver's race.

I have heard the DCT launch control is pretty much a 4k rpm clutch drop. If you are a good manual driver you should be able to easily out launch a DCT eguiped car.

I was able to pull a sub 2 second 60' with the stock runflats. Note this is at a elevation of 5800 feet in 80 degree temps.


Most of the DCT results I have seen show 60' times of around 2.2 on stock RFT's
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      03-02-2011, 05:02 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFIDDY5 View Post
The only thing that is better is the TWIN TURBO. other than that, the N55 is a better motor. The 1M used the N54 due to timing as mentioned above. The N55 will be the new M3's powerplant. I think that says what motor BMW thinks is better. Cute picture and caption. But so wrong, its comical.
Correction, the M3's engine will be based on the N55. No one knows what the actual engine will be like or how extensive the mods will be.
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      03-02-2011, 05:06 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vtec Abuser View Post
Mmmm, that's a strange one that..
My Golf has the DSG box (same as DCT) and I would say the exact opposite to that mate.
For example, when doing a straight line drag, the 1st to 2nd change is probably the gear where you lose the most momentum when changing with a manual box. Then 2nd to 3rd and so on. The higher gears is where you have less of an advantage with dual clutch, as the car is going that quick and carrying that much momentum anyway, someone with a quick shift in a manual won't really lose much at all.
The dual clutch boxes help not just with the quickness of the shift, but the fact that there is no let up in acceleration, the nose of the car doesn't drop on each change and there's no loss of boost/lag. Something I have found to be most noticiable on a MT car when doing the first few changes (1st to 2nd / 2nd to 3rd ) as you are not carrying enough speed or momentum to help you at that stage.
Could be wrong though..
I didn't care for the DSG in the GTIs. I test drove one and it didn't feel very smooth. My family also owned a DSG Jetta TDi and it never seemed to shift very smoothly. Abrupt throttle changes it didn't like either.

DSG technology has a little way to go before I jump on board. I love the idea though.
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      03-02-2011, 05:10 PM   #52
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N55 owners seem to have an inferiority complex.





Turbos, basic math:

2 > 1
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      03-02-2011, 11:56 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFIDDY5 View Post
The only thing that is better is the TWIN TURBO. other than that, the N55 is a better motor. The 1M used the N54 due to timing as mentioned above. The N55 will be the new M3's powerplant. I think that says what motor BMW thinks is better. Cute picture and caption. But so wrong, its comical.
Forged crank is a big plus for the 54 also.

Has it been confirmed that the 55 will reside in the new M3? I seem to recall many here were dead set sure that the 1M would certainly have the N55 under the hood and posted right here in this forum. They were using up all the antiquated 54's in the 335is model to 'get rid of them' but would never use the in the M and yet here they are.

BMW evolved the N55 to be a 'greener' power plant. Less pollution and better mileage were the goals.
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      03-03-2011, 12:02 AM   #54
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Personally if somebody could prove to me that the N55 doesn't suffer any HPFP problems it would win hands down versus the N54 (limp mode loses every time).

The other stuff seems trivial compared to this.
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      03-03-2011, 07:35 AM   #55
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N55 owners seem to have an inferiority complex.





Turbos, basic math:

2 > 1
typical ignorant remark...go learn about turbocharged systems.
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      03-03-2011, 07:47 AM   #56
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Forged crank is a big plus for the 54 also.

Has it been confirmed that the 55 will reside in the new M3? I seem to recall many here were dead set sure that the 1M would certainly have the N55 under the hood and posted right here in this forum. They were using up all the antiquated 54's in the 335is model to 'get rid of them' but would never use the in the M and yet here they are.

BMW evolved the N55 to be a 'greener' power plant. Less pollution and better mileage were the goals.
Another irrelevant post. It is sad when people say things just to say them, without any reasoning behind it. Could you explain why "forged crank is a big plus for the 54 also? I'm sure you can't, you are just repeating what you've read, but here, let me explain a few things to you. Forging typically has 2 major effects: 1) weight savings, and 2) rigidity. Now let's address both points. Did you know that the non-forged crank in the N55 is actually lighter than the one on the N54? This blows away advantage #1. Now let's address advantage #2: did you know that the rigidity of a forged crank presents a clear advantage under major horsepower applications? By this I mean 6, 7, 800+ hp, which are numbers that our cars will never be able to achieve without completely rebuilt motors, in which case other forged internals will most likely be required, and the car will probably be a purely track car. So where's the big plus for the 135i?

If you know anything about BMW, you know that they do not "confirm" anything this early in the game. What has been speculated and apparently started is that the new M3 will be forced inducted. Also, the 1M received a powerplant that is being faded out and replaced in the BMW line. By no means does this mean it's a bad engine; all the opposite, it's been a great engine for the time it's been out, but everything comes to an end, just like the N55 will be replaced one day. The surplus of N54 engines (because it was used across so many platforms) made a good supply for the 1M, versus just recycling them. Also, the engine has a good following and reputation, so it is only wise to use it on a new car, and people will gravitate to buying it.

There is a BMW insider in these forums that has implied that BMW will be using a variant of the N55 for the new M3. Every time I have seen him post something in advance, he has been correct.
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      03-03-2011, 08:02 AM   #57
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      03-03-2011, 08:33 AM   #58
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I had to actually scour the US for a N54 when I bought mine. The N55 was out, and just based on my knowledge of what was known and unknown regarding the two engines, I wanted the N54. The knowledge that I gained from engine building also pushed me to the N54. I am just curious to see how the cast crank holds up once we start seeing a mass of the N55's running 380+ RWHP like we do with the N54. Lighter is nice, but it isn't always better. I'll take a good 4340 steel crank any day over a cast crank. But, it might not matter as much here, as that was for cars cranking out 600+hp to the wheels and weighing about 300-400lbs more.

That is my reasoning

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      03-03-2011, 08:42 AM   #59
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typical ignorant remark...go learn about turbocharged systems.


I thought it was painfully obvious that I was being sarcastic... Next time I'll remember to include a disclaimer when making "typical ignorant remarks."
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      03-03-2011, 09:23 AM   #60
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Another irrelevant post. It is sad when people say things just to say them, without any reasoning behind it.
Now you understand the frustration in my first post lol.
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      03-03-2011, 09:32 AM   #61
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Another irrelevant post. It is sad when people say things just to say them, without any reasoning behind it. Could you explain why "forged crank is a big plus for the 54 also? I'm sure you can't, you are just repeating what you've read, but here, let me explain a few things to you. Forging typically has 2 major effects: 1) weight savings, and 2) rigidity. Now let's address both points. Did you know that the non-forged crank in the N55 is actually lighter than the one on the N54? This blows away advantage #1. Now let's address advantage #2: did you know that the rigidity of a forged crank presents a clear advantage under major horsepower applications? By this I mean 6, 7, 800+ hp, which are numbers that our cars will never be able to achieve without completely rebuilt motors, in which case other forged internals will most likely be required, and the car will probably be a purely track car. So where's the big plus for the 135i?

If you know anything about BMW, you know that they do not "confirm" anything this early in the game. What has been speculated and apparently started is that the new M3 will be forced inducted. Also, the 1M received a powerplant that is being faded out and replaced in the BMW line. By no means does this mean it's a bad engine; all the opposite, it's been a great engine for the time it's been out, but everything comes to an end, just like the N55 will be replaced one day. The surplus of N54 engines (because it was used across so many platforms) made a good supply for the 1M, versus just recycling them. Also, the engine has a good following and reputation, so it is only wise to use it on a new car, and people will gravitate to buying it.

There is a BMW insider in these forums that has implied that BMW will be using a variant of the N55 for the new M3. Every time I have seen him post something in advance, he has been correct.
Forged is always better. You can try to put an unrealistic, head in sand spin on it but it just doesnt cut it. Stronger and more expensive to produce. The first one is a win for anybody who knows engine dynamics. The latter is the likely reason they decided not to go forged for the 55.
6,7, 800hp! I've seen and heard about many twisted and broken cranks well under your pulled out of hat #'s! A simple ten minute flash in a N54 is giving cars an additional 100+ hp/tq figures. Thats a big bump for a 300 hp engine right there. Sure the guys who have done so feel a little better having a beefier bottom end.

As for the new M3, that was my point. Speculation and guarantees of what engine will be underhood arent realistic at this time. Just like all the N55 guys with 'insider info' assured us that they were at the meeting where the 55 was certainly going into the 1M!

Did this 'insider' also tell you a surplus of 54's were gotten rid of in the 335is and the 1M? You're saying BMW actually used an inferior left over, antiquated inferior engine for its newest M vehicle? Dont think so.

How do you know they still dont have a huge warehouse full of these 54's collecting dust that they're going to unload on us for the new FI M3? You cant, you dont have a clue why the company is doing what it does. Just throwing mud on the wall hoping it will stick. It doesnt.

With the introduction of the N55 BMW made it very clear in its own literature that the engine is more fuel efficient and cleaner than the the N54. The times are changing. Cleaner, greener are the new buzzwords that will sell cars.

Just like the monster American powerplants of the 60's went away with fuel price and pollution concerns in favor of lesser engines. This is a similar occurance happening here. BMW slightly took the edge off a sharp knife to conform to the times. CAFE regs and pollution are a concern for all automakers and they make adjustments.

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      03-03-2011, 09:37 AM   #62
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I got 31mpg on the last tank of gas in my N54 powered 135i on a trip from Columbus, OH to Huntington, WV. Mountainous area, so definitely not a flat cruise. We stopped once at McDonalds, and drove hammer down to 70mph average all the way. This is with the JB4 set to the 2-18-11 FW on Map 2. That is green enough for me. That was with 93 octane BP fuel from Ohio, and no E-10.
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      03-03-2011, 04:50 PM   #63
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Forged is always better. You can try to put an unrealistic, head in sand spin on it but it just doesnt cut it. Stronger and more expensive to produce. The first one is a win for anybody who knows engine dynamics. The latter is the likely reason they decided not to go forged for the 55.
6,7, 800hp! I've seen and heard about many twisted and broken cranks well under your pulled out of hat #'s! A simple ten minute flash in a N54 is giving cars an additional 100+ hp/tq figures. Thats a big bump for a 300 hp engine right there. Sure the guys who have done so feel a little better having a beefier bottom end.

As for the new M3, that was my point. Speculation and guarantees of what engine will be underhood arent realistic at this time. Just like all the N55 guys with 'insider info' assured us that they were at the meeting where the 55 was certainly going into the 1M!

Did this 'insider' also tell you a surplus of 54's were gotten rid of in the 335is and the 1M? You're saying BMW actually used an inferior left over, antiquated inferior engine for its newest M vehicle? Dont think so.

How do you know they still dont have a huge warehouse full of these 54's collecting dust that they're going to unload on us for the new FI M3? You cant, you dont have a clue why the company is doing what it does. Just throwing mud on the wall hoping it will stick. It doesnt.

With the introduction of the N55 BMW made it very clear in its own literature that the engine is more fuel efficient and cleaner than the the N54. The times are changing. Cleaner, greener are the new buzzwords that will sell cars.

Just like the monster American powerplants of the 60's went away with fuel price and pollution concerns in favor of lesser engines. This is a similar occurance happening here. BMW slightly took the edge off a sharp knife to conform to the times. CAFE regs and pollution are a concern for all automakers and they make adjustments.
Let’s address all your points, 1 by 1:

As I previously described, anything below the 6, 7, 800whp is irrelevant when it comes to forged cranks. I don’t know about you, but I have had my share of turbocharged applications, none of which had forged cranks, and one of which was a 450whp daily driver and it never skipped a beat. I have been into forced inducted applications for about 10 years now, and I have yet to see a properly tuned and modified car fail yet on a non-forged bottom end. The occurrences you describe mostly take into account people who just crave power and being faster at any expense, and end up running leaner setups that detonate like there is no tomorrow. Anyhow, I am not here to educate you, I am here to share my real life experiences. You claim I pulled my information out of a hat, I claim you pulled yours out of your ass.

The new M3. I think I was clear when I said there is always too much speculation in terms of what BMW puts out, however, so far the little information available points at a variation of the N55. I don’t know who you are referring to, but the insider I was speaking of informed me and many others of the N54 going into the 1M, not the N55...once again, it was correct information. I’ll point out that you must have a high reading deficiency, I believe I was clear when I gave the engine its merits, and by no means implied that it was inferior in performance; it is however on its way out. Apparently the only one swimming in mud here is you.

The only part that you seem to have a slight clue about is the efficiency part. However, BMW was able to put out a more efficient engine without taking a hit on the performance side. Are there more options available to enhance output on the N54 than on the N55? Absolutely. The engine has been out for 4 years, I wouldn’t expect any less. The N55 is still being researched in terms of power adders, given that it offers a much more intricate system combining forced induction with valvetronic - these two technologies are not considered “new” independently, but mated together create a rather complex combination that are giving tuners a good run for their money. Give it time, and mods offering similar gains will surface.
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      03-03-2011, 07:14 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Forged is always better. You can try to put an unrealistic, head in sand spin on it but it just doesnt cut it. Stronger and more expensive to produce. The first one is a win for anybody who knows engine dynamics. The latter is the likely reason they decided not to go forged for the 55.
6,7, 800hp! I've seen and heard about many twisted and broken cranks well under your pulled out of hat #'s! A simple ten minute flash in a N54 is giving cars an additional 100+ hp/tq figures. Thats a big bump for a 300 hp engine right there. Sure the guys who have done so feel a little better having a beefier bottom end.

As for the new M3, that was my point. Speculation and guarantees of what engine will be underhood arent realistic at this time. Just like all the N55 guys with 'insider info' assured us that they were at the meeting where the 55 was certainly going into the 1M!

Did this 'insider' also tell you a surplus of 54's were gotten rid of in the 335is and the 1M? You're saying BMW actually used an inferior left over, antiquated inferior engine for its newest M vehicle? Dont think so.

How do you know they still dont have a huge warehouse full of these 54's collecting dust that they're going to unload on us for the new FI M3? You cant, you dont have a clue why the company is doing what it does. Just throwing mud on the wall hoping it will stick. It doesnt.

With the introduction of the N55 BMW made it very clear in its own literature that the engine is more fuel efficient and cleaner than the the N54. The times are changing. Cleaner, greener are the new buzzwords that will sell cars.

Just like the monster American powerplants of the 60's went away with fuel price and pollution concerns in favor of lesser engines. This is a similar occurance happening here. BMW slightly took the edge off a sharp knife to conform to the times. CAFE regs and pollution are a concern for all automakers and they make adjustments.
You clearly know absolutely nothing about BMW as a company. BMW entire business plan is set around continuous new innovation without any negatives.

Yes they went cleaner with this engine...as they have always been with all of their engines. BMW engines have always proven to be innovative...I mean my 97' 328i before the whole gas milage freak out with the coming of hybrid cars did 32 mpg on the highway. That was better than most hybrid cars even today.

Just because BMW brought new innovations to a engine hardly means they slacked off on other ends to make that possible. A great example of this was their concept on turbos. Until they could remove the downsides to turbos they refused to put them on their vehicles...They were absolutely not willing to put turbos on the car because even though it had its benefits...it would take away from the other things that made a BMW...a BMW.

BMW has always been a company that brought on innovation without a downside...you should keep that in mind before you insult the N55 and try to claim it is worse because it is more efficient.

Both engines are amazing and at a standpoint of innovation are quite incredible. Please unless you have factual information do not try to claim bullshit you actually have no clue about (claiming that it is a worse engine because it is more efficient).

Last edited by Aries932; 03-03-2011 at 07:16 PM. Reason: wanted to make a change.
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      03-04-2011, 04:39 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SerieStud View Post
Letís address all your points, 1 by 1:

As I previously described, anything below the 6, 7, 800whp is irrelevant when it comes to forged cranks. I donít know about you, but I have had my share of turbocharged applications, none of which had forged cranks, and one of which was a 450whp daily driver and it never skipped a beat. I have been into forced inducted applications for about 10 years now, and I have yet to see a properly tuned and modified car fail yet on a non-forged bottom end. The occurrences you describe mostly take into account people who just crave power and being faster at any expense, and end up running leaner setups that detonate like there is no tomorrow. Anyhow, I am not here to educate you, I am here to share my real life experiences. You claim I pulled my information out of a hat, I claim you pulled yours out of your ass.

The new M3. I think I was clear when I said there is always too much speculation in terms of what BMW puts out, however, so far the little information available points at a variation of the N55. I donít know who you are referring to, but the insider I was speaking of informed me and many others of the N54 going into the 1M, not the N55...once again, it was correct information. Iíll point out that you must have a high reading deficiency, I believe I was clear when I gave the engine its merits, and by no means implied that it was inferior in performance; it is however on its way out. Apparently the only one swimming in mud here is you.

The only part that you seem to have a slight clue about is the efficiency part. However, BMW was able to put out a more efficient engine without taking a hit on the performance side. Are there more options available to enhance output on the N54 than on the N55? Absolutely. The engine has been out for 4 years, I wouldnít expect any less. The N55 is still being researched in terms of power adders, given that it offers a much more intricate system combining forced induction with valvetronic - these two technologies are not considered ďnewĒ independently, but mated together create a rather complex combination that are giving tuners a good run for their money. Give it time, and mods offering similar gains will surface.
So, lets get this straight. BMW did all their R&D, spent tons of cash getting the N54 built with an expensive forged crankshaft(winning 4 International Engine of the year awards in the process) yet you know better than them! They dont know the hell they're doing? What a fucking joke!

And another thing swifty. I'll let you in on something, its really not about peak hp, TQ is was damages cranks. I see you think you know more than BMW and like to teach others, educate thyself first.
Know a bit about F/I cars myself. You see that other car in my avatar pic? Its a S/C 610bhp C6. Which trumps your little teen ricers.
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      03-04-2011, 05:26 PM   #66
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Looking back at this thread from page 2 you are the one losing his cool and ranting like a spoiled child that how dare others have a difference in opinion than yours. Very telling stuff there.
As is someone calling themselves 'stud'. We all know kids(when we were kids) who called themselves 'stud'. They're always the losers who couldnt get laid in a monkey whorehouse if they walked in with a bag of bananas.

Last edited by NYC6; 03-04-2011 at 05:41 PM.
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