Why doesn't anyone like Active Steering?

AchtungF80 · 05-08-2008, 01:01 PM

You know, coming from an E30, I can understand the need for this if you have a very slow ratio steering rack, like my e30 does (4.0 turns lock to lock)...in fact, its a very popular upgrade to swap out the steering rack on E30 cars with ones from the E36 Z3 roadster or E36 M cars. which are 2.7 and 3.0 turns lock-to-lock respectively.

It simply sucks to have to turn a full 1.5 turns on the steering wheel to make a right hand turn or to steer in and out of a parking spot. The Active Steering seems to suggest it assists by allowing less turn effort to make a car turn faster (speeding up the rack). Think of driving a Cadillac or a big Lincoln and you'll see how I mean about needing a steering assist.

As for the E82 cars - as small as they are I don't think an extra steering assist system is needed as it is very easy to drive the car as it is with the existing steering rack and assist.

TagMan · 05-08-2008, 01:07 PM

The AS isn't primarily about affecting the steering effort, as it is primarily about tightening that ratio, which you obviously understand benefits from being tightened!

mergen · 05-08-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gio

I've ordered my 135i with active steering and I've test driven one with active steering and I must say that I like it! Am I the only one?

I like it too. A lot. I'm just a regular driver. No tracks, no racing. Just enjoy driving wherever I need to go. I think about the AS every time I whip into my driveway. Same with the sports seats. I notice them each time I climb in.

Never having been much of a "car guy" until now, this is the first really nice car I've ever owned, so I guess I'm easily amused. Having this car brings me back to when I was 15 and got my license, I'd stick close to the house on the chance that something was needed at the store. I was ready. That was some fun driving.

AlexM105 · 05-08-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TagMan

Just like you said... IMAGINE.

That's in your imagination. Have you driven it? The feel is intuitive. You do connect with the varying response.

Try this analogy out...
Would you suggest one single gear ratio for your tranny? Or are you able to appreciate the six different gear ratios?

You could just have easily said this... "Imagine the car having a different feel and requiring a different gear at EVERY turn... LAME"

Do you get the point? :smile:

Active steering is not difficult. It's MORE responsive.

I drove the heck out of it. It was easy and awesome.

Edit: On my test drive with AS, I also simulated an "evasive" emergency maneuver... y'know, a sudden move to avoid hitting something. I did this at moderate speed, and then again at very high speed. Trust me, the car was amazing and stable... way better than without the AS... it was as if the car with AS was on rails. It was that steady and precise.

I'm unable to find the article about the 135i saying the same thing below at the moment, but this will have to do for now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road & Track

Most of the time the Active Steering also kept to the background, and once we got used to its eager ways in the parking lot, its lightning fast response did help. But often when pushing on back roads, a steering correction was necessary just after turn-in, a maddening nuisance given the chassis' instinctual pointability. Furthermore, the steering, while not outright numb, gave muted feedback that put unnecessary distance between us and the road.

Source

aesthetect · 05-08-2008, 01:59 PM

good thread for sure.

a lot of the naysayers i have heard in the past focused on the idea that it numbs steering feel, as in delayed or less connected. any opinions on that? to me, this is very different than one's ability to adapt to variation in steering ratio (which i do believe would be convenient once one was adapted to it, which i believe TagMan in that it would take less time than one would think)

(edit: like alex said)

Evolution Racewerks · 05-08-2008, 02:52 PM

I wish I could "turn" off the turbos. Save me some gas money. :biggrin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TagMan

No, and there is absolutely no need to. It isn't something that is ever uncomfortable. It just means that the car's steering is more responsive as needed, just like the turbos. Would you turn off your turbos? Or let them whirl as needed?

TagMan · 05-08-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexM105

I'm unable to find the article about the 135i saying the same thing below at the moment, but this will have to do for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road & Track
Most of the time the Active Steering also kept to the background, and once we got used to its eager ways in the parking lot, its lightning fast response did help. But often when pushing on back roads, a steering correction was necessary just after turn-in, a maddening nuisance given the chassis' instinctual pointability. Furthermore, the steering, while not outright numb, gave muted feedback that put unnecessary distance between us and the road.

How different that is from my experience... and this excerpt is from that earlier article...

On the road, most drivers wouldn't feel the system operation... The car just seems very stable at all speeds. Parking was also a snap, because of the short lock to lock turns of the steering wheel. The most noticeable change was when I hopped back into another vehicle without Active Steering. The steering seemed so unresponsive, which demonstrates improvements in steering performance the Active Steering system provides.

Alex, it is just so surprising to me that there is no obvious concensus on something that is, quite frankly, so obvious! I drove it extensively. I know first-hand what it is, as I attempted to describe in my earlier post. Oh, well...

You can lead a horse to water, but... :smile:

warmtoes · 05-08-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

a lot of the naysayers i have heard in the past focused on the idea that it numbs steering feel, as in delayed or less connected. any opinions on that?

When I tried it, that is how it felt to me. It was impressive to have the ability to go through s turns without ever having to lift your hands off the wheel because it never takes a full turn. However, it seemed to me that it did "numb" the feeling of the car to a degree. But, its not like it turns like a 70's Cadillac Deville though.

It can make quick transitions very tight because of the variable assist. And, like I said before, it helps in emergency situations as well.

I think I drove the technical course with AS 3 times and without it 4 times so that's my level of experience with it.

Dan203 · 05-08-2008, 03:39 PM

My CA actually suggested against AS. Since they didn't have a car with it to drive, and the only real reviews I read about it were negative, I decided against it.

Dan

TagMan · 05-08-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmwzone

The enthusiast's choices:

Manual Transmission
No Active Steering
Traction Control OFF

That allows us to burn off these horrible run-flats as fast as possible and replace with real tires!

I am so surprised at the polarization of opinions here and by the so-called experts. I drove a Lotus Elise before trading it in on my Porsche. I loved it because it was so freakin' responsive. I don't need to explain... you understand. I also love the Porsche because it is responsive. The standard 135i steering ratio is fun, but honestly, a little slow, and the AS adds faster response as well as precision.

I'm an enthusiast! I like more power, performance, response and precision when I can get it.

I'm totally baffled here. :iono:

Dan203 · 05-08-2008, 04:11 PM

I think that if BMW offered a system that could be turned "off" and allowed the steering to simulate a fixed ratio then most people would love it. It would be like DSC in that most people would leave it on most of the time, but on the rare occasion you wanted to track the car or do some really serious driving you could turn it off and get that "feel of the road" back.

The only problem I see with that scenario is that if the feel is drastically different between the two systems it could confuse drivers for a short period as they re-learn the different steering styles. Which means they'd probably have to make it an option you could only turn on/off when the car was at a complete stop to avoid switching at speeds and causing an accident.

Dan

imported_Katera · 05-08-2008, 04:15 PM

I came stupidly close to buying a 550i last year. I love the look of the car and it's a strong V8. The only thing that held me off was when I drove it. I hated the active steering. It felt like those old Uber power steering boat cars of the past. Took out the "feel" from the wheel. Again, just my opinion after driving it.

atr_hugo · 05-08-2008, 04:17 PM

The steering ratio in the non-AS E82 is 15:1 - I believe that with my Miata it was similar. Now the Miata, when shod with the Michelin Pilots, would send mucho info into the palms of my hands. In fact I could feel the tire move up onto the vinyl surface of a lane divider. That's super-critical information being sent directly to your hands. The 135i doesn't do that (at least not with the RFTs) and the extra fiddly bits that come between your hands and the contact patch in the Active Steering system are even less likely to impart that feel.

That being said; TagMan, you are correct in that there are a large number of cars with relatively numb steering feel that yet handle exceptionally well - steering feel and steering responsiveness are not connected.

It's just some of us are looking for both and hence tend not to option out the AS.

TagMan · 05-08-2008, 04:18 PM

Thanks for your input. It is always appreciated. This is a terrific discussion!

I never experienced the AS to be like that at all. I would absolutely hate something like that. I need to feel the road, and do not like to be disconnected. When I drove the AS, it was responsive and precise, and there was not a numb or disconnected feeling.

It's not like the 135i has direct steering anyway.

The slow response in the standard steering reminds me of an old Mercedes sedan. Too much wheel turning! It really needs to be quicker for my taste.

I understand what you are saying, but it seems to me that the positive benefits largely outweigh any negative here.

BMW even has a video on this, explaining the advantages. Are you saying that BMW is wrong about the advantages of the AS?

TagMan · 05-08-2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmwzone

I presume many of those here aren't rich and thus, the price of the AS is not worth it as the standard steering is great.

I'm that way. Even if AS is "slightly" better it's not 1000+ dollars better.

Same goes for Leather and the "upgraded stereo".

:eyebulge:

I totally agree, and in my post at the beginning of this thread, I mentioned that!

If you put the money aside, and just look at the AS feature for what it is, and what it does, then that is a pure discussion about the feature itself.

As far as AS being an essential option... it is NOT!

atr_hugo · 05-08-2008, 04:53 PM

Since there are major differences in what some of us consider acceptable steering feel, it would go without saying that anyone considering active steering test drive a car equipped with it before ordering the option.

warmtoes · 05-08-2008, 05:19 PM

Quote:

BMW even has a video on this, explaining the advantages. Are you saying that BMW is wrong about the advantages of the AS?

The head of the BMW driver training in Canada was going on about it and he really recommended it.

aesthetect · 05-08-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TagMan

BMW even has a video on this, explaining the advantages

this cleared up the technical side of it for me.. but there's really no telling until you get to go drive it... and i mean REALLY drive it. although i'm frankly warming up to the idea. would certainly increase "zippiness" and this video makes me think one really would not have to sacrifice feel/sensitivity, there is still a direct mechanical link as the electric motor would not move unless commanded by speed. although i could see a sense of disconnection in late braking..

TagMan · 05-08-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

Since there are major differences in what some of us consider acceptable steering feel, it would go without saying that anyone considering active steering test drive a car equipped with it before ordering the option.

Well said, but there are even major differences in the abilities of different driver's capabilities to "feel" the many aspects of a car's feedback. Some driver's can "connect" better than others.

So "feel" is not just a measurement of the mechanicals involved, but also a measurement of the sensitivity of the driver as well.

I suspect that some drivers can feel the road using AS, while perhaps others are not able to. That explains the discrepancy in driver's reviews.

This is true for other vehicle dynamics, such as the example when one critic claims the suspension is soft, and another claims it is stiff. Same mechanicals!

So, can all driver's use AS and still feel the road? Apparently it depends upon the driver's "sensitivity", and preferences as well.

As you suggest, it should really be tested by each individual.

EDIT: This thread's title infers that no one likes AS. Might as well start a thread that asks why no one likes automatic transmission or why no one likes Sedona Red? These are all LOADED questions that are presumptuous in their nature. NOT all that cool, if you get my point.

Dan203 · 05-08-2008, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesthetect

this cleared up the technical side of it for me.. but there's really no telling until you get to go drive it... and i mean REALLY drive it. although i'm frankly warming up to the idea. would certainly increase "zippiness" and this video makes me think one really would not have to sacrifice feel/sensitivity, there is still a direct mechanical link as the electric motor would not move unless commanded by speed. although i could see a sense of disconnection in late braking..

Based on that it should be easy to turn AS "off" with a simple switch that locks the motor just like in the emergency situation. I wonder why BMW doesn't offer a way to disable it?

Dan

scs · 05-08-2008, 06:19 PM

why doesn't the m3 come with this option?

anderp · 05-08-2008, 06:29 PM

I have an '05 545 with active steering and an '05 X3 with the $700 steering option. I have driven both cars almost daily since December of '04. 99% of the time I can't tell it's there, it is no different to me than the X3's steering. I notice little difference when moving slowly in parking lots, parallel parking or pulling into my driveway. I also notice no difference when doing a little spirited driving. Sadly this often leads me to wonder why I bothered spending the extra money for it.

But there is one thing I do notice about it that often startles me, and makes me seriously regret getting it. I have noticed on windy bridges, or roads with washboard rippling, the steering seems to become completely detached from the steering wheel. Imagine drive by wire connecting the steering wheel to the tires, and then imagine as if they suddenly lost communication! It is a feeling that will cause your stomach to suddenly drop.

There have been multiple software updates for the car, some claiming to alter, improve, or enhance the active steering algorithms and response, but to me these seem to have only further diminished it's effects thus once again making me wonder, why I bothered spending the money on it. I will be ordering a 1 series soon, and I will definately not be ordering it with active steering.

05-08-2008, 01:01 PM	#23
AchtungF80 Brigadier General 279 Rep 3,465 Posts Drives: 997.2 GT3, '17 G30 Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: NJ iTrader: (2) Garage List 2008 135is [9.50] 2010 Cooper S [10.00] 1991 318is [10.00]	You know, coming from an E30, I can understand the need for this if you have a very slow ratio steering rack, like my e30 does (4.0 turns lock to lock)...in fact, its a very popular upgrade to swap out the steering rack on E30 cars with ones from the E36 Z3 roadster or E36 M cars. which are 2.7 and 3.0 turns lock-to-lock respectively. It simply sucks to have to turn a full 1.5 turns on the steering wheel to make a right hand turn or to steer in and out of a parking spot. The Active Steering seems to suggest it assists by allowing less turn effort to make a car turn faster (speeding up the rack). Think of driving a Cadillac or a big Lincoln and you'll see how I mean about needing a steering assist. As for the E82 cars - as small as they are I don't think an extra steering assist system is needed as it is very easy to drive the car as it is with the existing steering rack and assist. __________________ ig: 0verrev
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05-08-2008, 01:07 PM	#24
TagMan Car Addict!! 62 Rep 1,303 Posts Drives: '08 135i Convertible Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Malibu, California iTrader: (0)	The AS isn't primarily about affecting the steering effort, as it is primarily about tightening that ratio, which you obviously understand benefits from being tightened! __________________ 2008 /// Commemorative /// 6-Speed /// Titanium Silver /// Fully-Loaded /// 135i Convertible
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05-08-2008, 01:59 PM	#27
aesthetect form follows function 38 Rep 838 Posts Drives: GC impreza Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: austin tx iTrader: (0)	good thread for sure. a lot of the naysayers i have heard in the past focused on the idea that it numbs steering feel, as in delayed or less connected. any opinions on that? to me, this is very different than one's ability to adapt to variation in steering ratio (which i do believe would be convenient once one was adapted to it, which i believe TagMan in that it would take less time than one would think) (edit: like alex said)
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05-08-2008, 03:39 PM	#31
Dan203 Lieutenant Colonel 136 Rep 1,592 Posts Drives: 2016 340i xDrive Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Carson City, NV iTrader: (1)	My CA actually suggested against AS. Since they didn't have a car with it to drive, and the only real reviews I read about it were negative, I decided against it. Dan
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05-08-2008, 04:11 PM	#33
Dan203 Lieutenant Colonel 136 Rep 1,592 Posts Drives: 2016 340i xDrive Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Carson City, NV iTrader: (1)	I think that if BMW offered a system that could be turned "off" and allowed the steering to simulate a fixed ratio then most people would love it. It would be like DSC in that most people would leave it on most of the time, but on the rare occasion you wanted to track the car or do some really serious driving you could turn it off and get that "feel of the road" back. The only problem I see with that scenario is that if the feel is drastically different between the two systems it could confuse drivers for a short period as they re-learn the different steering styles. Which means they'd probably have to make it an option you could only turn on/off when the car was at a complete stop to avoid switching at speeds and causing an accident. Dan
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05-08-2008, 04:15 PM	#34
imported_Katera Captain 42 Rep 890 Posts Drives: Join Date: Nov 2007 iTrader: (0)	I came stupidly close to buying a 550i last year. I love the look of the car and it's a strong V8. The only thing that held me off was when I drove it. I hated the active steering. It felt like those old Uber power steering boat cars of the past. Took out the "feel" from the wheel. Again, just my opinion after driving it. __________________ 2008 BMW 135i Vert! -Jet Black -6 speed Manual <Who says Vert's are for girls!> -Boston Grey Leather with Black High Gloss Accent -Moonlit Black Top -Comfort Access -Premium P. -Sport P. -Premium Stereo -IPOD/USB -BMW Performance Pedals -BMW Windscreen -Sat Radio Meet Kat! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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05-08-2008, 04:17 PM	#35
atr_hugo No longer moderate 325 Rep 4,401 Posts Drives: '13 135i Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: - iTrader: (0)	The steering ratio in the non-AS E82 is 15:1 - I believe that with my Miata it was similar. Now the Miata, when shod with the Michelin Pilots, would send mucho info into the palms of my hands. In fact I could feel the tire move up onto the vinyl surface of a lane divider. That's super-critical information being sent directly to your hands. The 135i doesn't do that (at least not with the RFTs) and the extra fiddly bits that come between your hands and the contact patch in the Active Steering system are even less likely to impart that feel. That being said; TagMan, you are correct in that there are a large number of cars with relatively numb steering feel that yet handle exceptionally well - steering feel and steering responsiveness are not connected. It's just some of us are looking for both and hence tend not to option out the AS.
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05-08-2008, 04:18 PM	#36
TagMan Car Addict!! 62 Rep 1,303 Posts Drives: '08 135i Convertible Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Malibu, California iTrader: (0)	Thanks for your input. It is always appreciated. This is a terrific discussion! I never experienced the AS to be like that at all. I would absolutely hate something like that. I need to feel the road, and do not like to be disconnected. When I drove the AS, it was responsive and precise, and there was not a numb or disconnected feeling. It's not like the 135i has direct steering anyway. The slow response in the standard steering reminds me of an old Mercedes sedan. Too much wheel turning! It really needs to be quicker for my taste. I understand what you are saying, but it seems to me that the positive benefits largely outweigh any negative here. BMW even has a video on this, explaining the advantages. Are you saying that BMW is wrong about the advantages of the AS? __________________ 2008 /// Commemorative /// 6-Speed /// Titanium Silver /// Fully-Loaded /// 135i Convertible
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05-08-2008, 04:53 PM	#38
atr_hugo No longer moderate 325 Rep 4,401 Posts Drives: '13 135i Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: - iTrader: (0)	Since there are major differences in what some of us consider acceptable steering feel, it would go without saying that anyone considering active steering test drive a car equipped with it before ordering the option.
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05-08-2008, 06:19 PM	#43
scs First Lieutenant 24 Rep 329 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: May 2008 Location: 98632 iTrader: (0)	why doesn't the m3 come with this option? __________________
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05-08-2008, 06:29 PM	#44
anderp Registered 0 Rep 2 Posts Drives: Join Date: May 2008 iTrader: (0)	I have an '05 545 with active steering and an '05 X3 with the $700 steering option. I have driven both cars almost daily since December of '04. 99% of the time I can't tell it's there, it is no different to me than the X3's steering. I notice little difference when moving slowly in parking lots, parallel parking or pulling into my driveway. I also notice no difference when doing a little spirited driving. Sadly this often leads me to wonder why I bothered spending the extra money for it. But there is one thing I do notice about it that often startles me, and makes me seriously regret getting it. I have noticed on windy bridges, or roads with washboard rippling, the steering seems to become completely detached from the steering wheel. Imagine drive by wire connecting the steering wheel to the tires, and then imagine as if they suddenly lost communication! It is a feeling that will cause your stomach to suddenly drop. There have been multiple software updates for the car, some claiming to alter, improve, or enhance the active steering algorithms and response, but to me these seem to have only further diminished it's effects thus once again making me wonder, why I bothered spending the money on it. I will be ordering a 1 series soon, and I will definately not be ordering it with active steering.
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