Issue with Cool Carbons after first track day

froop · 12-21-2013, 05:58 AM

Hi everyone, just wanted some opinions on people who've had experience with tracking Cool Carbons.

I installed the CCs on my 2008 135i at the same time as getting new calipers (BMWP), ECS 2 piece front rotors, rear BMWP rotors, SS brake lines and Castrol SRF fluid. I also removed the front dust shields. I bedded the brakes in using the accelerated bedding procedure and everything was fine. I drove the car around for about a month or so without any issues. There was good progressive bite and no vibrations or sounds and I loved the lack dust.

About 2 weeks ago I took the car to the track for a Supersprint. 6 x 10 minute sessions aiming to get the fastest lap time possible. Laps around this track (Wakefield Park) take around 1.11-1.12s for me. It's quite a twisty track and I only get up to around 180-190 on the main straight before needing to brake.

During the first session I was quite happy with the performance. As they warmed up, bite increased dramatically which I expected however on the last 2 laps I started experiencing very bad brake fade. I let the brakes cool down at the end of the session and it was about 1 hour until the next session. I noticed that when driving out of the pit garages into the staging area the pedal feel was very soft. As in to the floor soft. If I pumped the brakes a few times this improved but out on the track the pedal feel became very strange. Sometimes the pedal was really soft, and other times it was quite solid. One turn would feel fine, but by the next turn it would be soft and then the next turn after that it might be fine again.

I ended up leaving after the 4th sessions as I was getting less and less confident in the brakes. One time I attempted to be a little brave and braked where I would have previously braked when on OEM pads and actually overshot the turn at the end of the straight and ended up in the gravel trap. Luckily there wasn't really any significant damage. On the drive home as well as the following day I noticed that the pedal feel and stopping power remained pretty bad and inconsistent.

I attributed it to the brake fluid. Although I was running Castrol SRF, I felt that maybe all of the old fluid was not properly flushed and I was told that SRF did not react well to any other fluids, causing odd behaviour. I spoke to my mechanic and he told me that he didn't think that it would be the brake fluid but more likely the pads were cooked and aerated or something along those lines.

Today, I flushed the brake fluid with new Castrol SRF and took it for a drive just. The pedal feel is now definitely more solid and consistent however the bite and stopping power is still pretty horrible. Even stomping on the brakes I'm unable to get the ABS to activate. It was my first time bleeding brakes let alone doing a full flush so I guess there's the possibility that I didn't do it properly and might have allowed some air back into the system when bleeding but I can't be sure.

I read quite a few reviews on the Cool Carbons before getting them and whilst I wasn't expecting them to be a fantastic track pad, I was expecting them to hold up ok, maybe fade a bit on the track and be fine afterwards once cooled down, but I didn't expect this at all. They couldn't even hold up to a 10 minute session and I don't feel that I was exactly punishing the brakes either.

Has anyone else experienced this at all?

Should I try to bleed the brakes again? Have I 'glazed' the pads?

dcaron9999 · 12-21-2013, 06:14 AM

Cool Carbon pads are sold as a street pad that you can take to an occasional track event. I disagree with that. They are an average street pad at best.

Read one of my my threads here:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ht=cool+carbon

froop · 12-21-2013, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Cool Carbon pads are sold as a street pad that you can take to an occasional track event. I disagree with that. They are an average street pad at best.

Read one of my my threads here:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ht=cool+carbon

Thanks for the reply.

I absolutely loved them as a street pad. Not a peep, good pedal feel and braking power and extremely low dust.

I guess I'm just not 100% sure whether it's the pads causing my issue or whether it's still (or also) the fluid. I guess the only way is to either bleed the brakes again or get a set of OEMs and see if that solves the problem.

Might look into getting some Ferodo DS2500s as they seem to be the best street/track pads available as I'm too lazy to be swapping pads in and out every track day.

Kgolf31 · 12-21-2013, 10:04 AM

There is no compromise for a street/track pad. There isn't one that exists.

Pedal going to the floor is brake fluid. Make sure your SS lines are properly installed and not letting any air into the system.

A fading pad will have constant brake pedal feel, but simply will not brake.

As well, make sure you're actually braking correctly.

Track braking =/= autocross braking =/= street braking.

nearlydigital · 12-21-2013, 01:34 PM

I have them on mine, with bmw performance rotors. I do like them on the street for quietness and lack of dust. I took them out for a track day in November, for the first time. Wow... surprisingly horrible. Very significant fade in no time flat and a massive pulsating when high speed braking that freaked me out (went away when things cooled down). Definitely would not recommend at all for the track... even just light occasional track days.

dcaron9999 · 12-22-2013, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nearlydigital

I have them on mine...I took them out for a track day in November, for the first time. Wow... surprisingly horrible. Very significant fade in no time flat and a massive pulsating when high speed braking that freaked me out (went away when things cooled down). Definitely would not recommend at all for the track... even just light occasional track days.

Exactly what I experienced with the Cool Carbon's! No amount of bedding helped this pulsation when pads are hot. They are coming off my 135i at the beginning of the 2014 lapping season.

I really hope Performance Friction comes though for 135i race pads, on this other group buy/pilot thread. We just need more participants. http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=921066

If PFC does not come through, I will go with Pagid RS-29's. Dont want to deal with weekly pad swaps, so an endurance track pad, that works on the street (with "acceptable" level of noise) is my next target.

dcaron9999 · 12-22-2013, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Pedal going to the floor is brake fluid. Make sure your SS lines are properly installed and not letting any air into the system.

A fading pad will have constant brake pedal feel, but simply will not brake.

+1.
OP, soft pedal equals boiled fluid, air in your brake lines, or both.

Redo your brake bleed. When you do, use a rubber mallet on your calipers to remove every tiny air bubble, make sure you purge tube is constantly dipping in old fluid to avoid any air getting sucked back into the caliper nipple.

Last and foremost, use good quality DOT4 high temp brake fluid such as Motul RBF600, RBF660, Gulf800, Gulf1000, etc.

3002 tii · 12-22-2013, 08:37 AM

I had really good experience with PFC's brake fluid, pricey but I think it's worth it.

pixelblue · 12-22-2013, 09:50 AM

Castrol SRF is top notch. seriously doubt you boiled the fluid but like was mentioned you have air in your line. a full brake flush can be a bit tricky and requires a good procedure and practice. Cool carbons are good for beginners on track and they are great for street use but the symptoms you described can only be air in your brake line.

Pyrat 2 · 12-22-2013, 10:13 AM

I've never had dedicated track pads mostly because I'm too lazy to swap. I tried cool carbons on my 330 and had a very bad experience. I had been using red stuffs for years with reasonable results ( they held up) but wanted to try something different. I then switched to Pfc zrated and am happy with them. They seem to hold up well on the track and throw little dust on the street. Unfortunately, they don't sell these for the one. On my 13 135i I've only had stock pads at the track. The dealer replaced the first set under warranty but said they couldn't replace the second set after only 1000 miles since the first replacement. So I went with some stop techs. Have yet to try them at the track. Can't wait until next season.

Elsabor67 · 12-22-2013, 11:20 AM

I used CC on the track once. That was the last time i did that. They are a great pad for street and spirited driving but that is where it stops. For the track I use Ferodo DS2500s and they are incredible. I have also heard great things about Pagid too.

froop · 12-22-2013, 05:16 PM

Thanks for the replies guys. I sent an email to the vendor of the pads (which I bought over a year ago) and he told me to rebleed the lines. I might give that another go and see how it goes.

I'm not 100% convinced that it's just the pads but I'm also not 100% convinced that it's not.

Before I turned on the car yesterday I tried pumping the brakes and I could hear the pads squeak as I applied more pressure to them. Haven't heard that sound before so not sure if it's normal. Sounds like the pads getting squished or compressed which I don't think should be happening.

PrematureApex · 12-22-2013, 06:03 PM

It is certainly the pads. They are street pads, they will overheat/fade well before even average brake fluid gives out.

It's a heavy car with small rotors. Unless you're just starting and/or very non-aggressive, no street pad will hold up to track days, period.

froop · 12-22-2013, 07:14 PM

Just to re-iterate. I did not expect the pads to function as a full race pad and did definitely expect brake fade. I also expected some brake shudder as people had been reporting and which I also experienced, although it was only very occasionally (once every 2 sessions or so). I did a lot of reading and research prior to selecting the pad.

What I am querying is whether or not after being overheated to point of fade, do the pads become completely useless, because that possibly appears to be happening with me.

I am still planning on rebleeding the brakes again and if that doesn't fix it I will pull the pads and check if they're glazed.

Kgolf31 · 12-22-2013, 08:10 PM

Once again....pedal going to the floor is boiling fluid, or air within the system. NOT THE PAD.

Brake shudder is deposits being left on the rotor from the pad that is not meant to handle that abuse.

You will know when a pad is faded, and failed. You'll have constant brake pressure and feel...but the car will not stop. Typically ABS will start to kick in as well and freak out.

Side note...I don't know why people install SS lines.

froop · 12-22-2013, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Once again....pedal going to the floor is boiling fluid, or air within the system. NOT THE PAD.

Brake shudder is deposits being left on the rotor from the pad that is not meant to handle that abuse.

You will know when a pad is faded, and failed. You'll have constant brake pressure and feel...but the car will not stop. Typically ABS will start to kick in as well and freak out.

Side note...I don't know why people install SS lines.

Yeah that was what I thought as well however I have Ti shims, was running no dust shields, have 2 piece ventilated rotors as well as Castrol SRF which is why I don't think it's boiling fluid either, especially after only a few hot laps.

Definitely it could be air in the lines (even after I bled them) however the brake pedal feel was completely fine for a month before the track even after I did the brake bedding procedure and it was fine up until the last couple laps of that first session. Can air be introduced into the system while track driving?

TheSt|G · 12-23-2013, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Once again....pedal going to the floor is boiling fluid, or air within the system. NOT THE PAD.

Brake shudder is deposits being left on the rotor from the pad that is not meant to handle that abuse.

You will know when a pad is faded, and failed. You'll have constant brake pressure and feel...but the car will not stop. Typically ABS will start to kick in as well and freak out.

Side note...I don't know why people install SS lines.

All of this.

Anything that is dustless is going to be crap on track.

PrematureApex · 12-26-2013, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Once again....pedal going to the floor is boiling fluid, or air within the system. NOT THE PAD.

That's not really true. With enough pressure on the pedal, your can get the pedal pretty deep to the floor, even with the car sitting still. Firewall flex, line expansion, etc. It will go deep even with perfect fluid and enough pedal pressure.

While I agree a faded pad gives that "block of wood" feeling, vs. a pedal dropping to the floor. One can easily under a lot of adrenaline be placing very high forces on the pedal, where the pedal will travel so much it feels like boiling fluid.

With the fluids we're talking about there (SRF), with both a very high dry and wet point, the issue is the pads. Not the fluid. And any issue with the fluid is being caused by WAAAAAAAYYYYY too much heat being generated due to, you guessed it, prolonged braking events caused by the wrong pads.

clutch128 · 12-31-2013, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by froop

I am still planning on rebleeding the brakes again and if that doesn't fix it I will pull the pads and check if they're glazed.

you can do the old trick of changing brake fluid colors to make sure you've purged all the old fluid. Go from super blue to basically anything else and then back.

As an aside, i run stop-tech street performance pads...

froop · 01-01-2014, 04:39 PM

I re-bled the brakes again 2 days ago using SRF. Immediately after bleeding the brakes the pedal feels as stiff as stock but I wasn't able to go for a test immediately and had to let the car sit for a couple days.

Today I took the car to work and I noticed that the pedal was soft again even before starting the car and still not as stiff when driving. It's still much better after this most recent bleeding but the pedal feel is still not stock like. I can actually feel the car stopping much better now though and whilst I can get the pedal to reach the floor, it actually requires a moderate amount of pressure where as before it only required a mild amount.

When I can be bothered, I might bleed it one last time.

Kgolf31 · 01-01-2014, 08:26 PM

I think your master cylinder or something else is to blame here.

Are you using a pressure bleeder?

froop · 01-01-2014, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I think your master cylinder or something else is to blame here.

Are you using a pressure bleeder?

I'm using the 2 person method. So push down, open bleed, close bleed, pedal up, rinse and repeat.

I have heard a few people tell me that SRF needs to be completely flushed as it reacts badly with all other fluids. But yeah, it's been flushed twice and bled quite a few times though the fluid I flushed and bled out was a light brownish colour. New SRF seems almost clear.

I did have one instance soon after changing to SRF where I cold started my car and the clutch pedal stayed stuck to the floor however that's never happened since.

12-21-2013, 05:58 AM	#1
froop Colonel 171 Rep 2,682 Posts Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (3)	Issue with Cool Carbons after first track day Hi everyone, just wanted some opinions on people who've had experience with tracking Cool Carbons. I installed the CCs on my 2008 135i at the same time as getting new calipers (BMWP), ECS 2 piece front rotors, rear BMWP rotors, SS brake lines and Castrol SRF fluid. I also removed the front dust shields. I bedded the brakes in using the accelerated bedding procedure and everything was fine. I drove the car around for about a month or so without any issues. There was good progressive bite and no vibrations or sounds and I loved the lack dust. About 2 weeks ago I took the car to the track for a Supersprint. 6 x 10 minute sessions aiming to get the fastest lap time possible. Laps around this track (Wakefield Park) take around 1.11-1.12s for me. It's quite a twisty track and I only get up to around 180-190 on the main straight before needing to brake. During the first session I was quite happy with the performance. As they warmed up, bite increased dramatically which I expected however on the last 2 laps I started experiencing very bad brake fade. I let the brakes cool down at the end of the session and it was about 1 hour until the next session. I noticed that when driving out of the pit garages into the staging area the pedal feel was very soft. As in to the floor soft. If I pumped the brakes a few times this improved but out on the track the pedal feel became very strange. Sometimes the pedal was really soft, and other times it was quite solid. One turn would feel fine, but by the next turn it would be soft and then the next turn after that it might be fine again. I ended up leaving after the 4th sessions as I was getting less and less confident in the brakes. One time I attempted to be a little brave and braked where I would have previously braked when on OEM pads and actually overshot the turn at the end of the straight and ended up in the gravel trap. Luckily there wasn't really any significant damage. On the drive home as well as the following day I noticed that the pedal feel and stopping power remained pretty bad and inconsistent. I attributed it to the brake fluid. Although I was running Castrol SRF, I felt that maybe all of the old fluid was not properly flushed and I was told that SRF did not react well to any other fluids, causing odd behaviour. I spoke to my mechanic and he told me that he didn't think that it would be the brake fluid but more likely the pads were cooked and aerated or something along those lines. Today, I flushed the brake fluid with new Castrol SRF and took it for a drive just. The pedal feel is now definitely more solid and consistent however the bite and stopping power is still pretty horrible. Even stomping on the brakes I'm unable to get the ABS to activate. It was my first time bleeding brakes let alone doing a full flush so I guess there's the possibility that I didn't do it properly and might have allowed some air back into the system when bleeding but I can't be sure. I read quite a few reviews on the Cool Carbons before getting them and whilst I wasn't expecting them to be a fantastic track pad, I was expecting them to hold up ok, maybe fade a bit on the track and be fine afterwards once cooled down, but I didn't expect this at all. They couldn't even hold up to a 10 minute session and I don't feel that I was exactly punishing the brakes either. Has anyone else experienced this at all? Should I try to bleed the brakes again? Have I 'glazed' the pads? __________________ froop's AW 135i Build Thread Last edited by froop; 12-21-2013 at 06:05 AM..
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12-21-2013, 06:14 AM	#2
dcaron9999 Major 157 Rep 1,409 Posts Drives: 2011 135i M package Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Mirabel, Quebec iTrader: (0)	Cool Carbon pads are sold as a street pad that you can take to an occasional track event. I disagree with that. They are an average street pad at best. Read one of my my threads here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ht=cool+carbon __________________ 2011 X3 35i with M pack + 2011 135i w/6SPMT \| 255 square tire setup \| Quaife 3.46 LSD \| Diff lock down bracket \| Bilstein B8+Swift SpecR springs+H&R FSB \| CDV delete \| BMS Oil Tstat bypass \| ER FMIC & CP \| N54Tuning DP \| GC Street Camber Plates \| M3 FCA +guide rods+RSFB's+Tranny mounts \| Manzo toe arms \| Cobb Stg2 agressive tune \| Hawk DTC70 brake pads \| RB SS brake pistons \| Goodridge SS brake lines \| Custom brake cooling ducts
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12-21-2013, 10:04 AM	#4
Kgolf31 Brigadier General 460 Rep 4,531 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Ohio iTrader: (4)	There is no compromise for a street/track pad. There isn't one that exists. Pedal going to the floor is brake fluid. Make sure your SS lines are properly installed and not letting any air into the system. A fading pad will have constant brake pedal feel, but simply will not brake. As well, make sure you're actually braking correctly. Track braking =/= autocross braking =/= street braking.
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12-21-2013, 01:34 PM	#5
nearlydigital Private 6 Rep 54 Posts Drives: 2008 135i Join Date: May 2012 Location: Vancouver, BC iTrader: (1)	I have them on mine, with bmw performance rotors. I do like them on the street for quietness and lack of dust. I took them out for a track day in November, for the first time. Wow... surprisingly horrible. Very significant fade in no time flat and a massive pulsating when high speed braking that freaked me out (went away when things cooled down). Definitely would not recommend at all for the track... even just light occasional track days.
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12-22-2013, 08:37 AM	#8
3002 tii Lieutenant General 2282 Rep 12,565 Posts Drives: Z4 M, X5, GX460 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: CT iTrader: (99) Garage List F15 X5 xDrive35i [8.75] E86 Z4 M [10.00] F10 550i (Retired) [9.17] F25 X3 xDrive35i (R ... [9.43] E82 135is (Retired) [9.50] E85 Z4 M (Retired) [9.41] E90 328i xDrive (Re ... [9.25] E86 Z4 3.0si (Retired) [9.24]	I had really good experience with PFC's brake fluid, pricey but I think it's worth it. __________________ Follow for latest mods
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12-22-2013, 09:50 AM	#9
pixelblue Colonel 140 Rep 2,234 Posts Drives: the silver bullet Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: northern virginia iTrader: (2) Garage List 2010 135i [8.90]	Castrol SRF is top notch. seriously doubt you boiled the fluid but like was mentioned you have air in your line. a full brake flush can be a bit tricky and requires a good procedure and practice. Cool carbons are good for beginners on track and they are great for street use but the symptoms you described can only be air in your brake line. __________________ "I would quote everything pixelblue said, but you've already read it. Take it from someone who's put the 1 through its paces"
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12-22-2013, 10:13 AM	#10
Pyrat 2 Colonel 1418 Rep 2,560 Posts Drives: Rapidly from A to B Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Chicago 'burbs or TN Smokies iTrader: (3) Garage List 2022 Porsche GT4 [9.64] 2018 Porsche GT3 [9.33] 2007 Z4 M Roadster [8.33] 2020 BMW X1 [0.00]	I've never had dedicated track pads mostly because I'm too lazy to swap. I tried cool carbons on my 330 and had a very bad experience. I had been using red stuffs for years with reasonable results ( they held up) but wanted to try something different. I then switched to Pfc zrated and am happy with them. They seem to hold up well on the track and throw little dust on the street. Unfortunately, they don't sell these for the one. On my 13 135i I've only had stock pads at the track. The dealer replaced the first set under warranty but said they couldn't replace the second set after only 1000 miles since the first replacement. So I went with some stop techs. Have yet to try them at the track. Can't wait until next season. __________________ '07 Z4MR '22 GT4 '18 GT3 '16 GT4, '16 M2, '14 X1, '13 135is, '06 330i, '03 323 Ci, '01 330i, '99 M3 (RIP), '96 318is, some non-BMWs
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12-22-2013, 11:20 AM	#11
Elsabor67 aiming for 450..... 303 Rep 2,910 Posts Drives: Totaled :-( Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Louisiana iTrader: (28) Garage List 2009 135i [10.00]	I used CC on the track once. That was the last time i did that. They are a great pad for street and spirited driving but that is where it stops. For the track I use Ferodo DS2500s and they are incredible. I have also heard great things about Pagid too. __________________ Quote from Ezeedee regarding car mods: "you're only done when you sell the car "
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12-22-2013, 05:16 PM	#12
froop Colonel 171 Rep 2,682 Posts Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (3)	Thanks for the replies guys. I sent an email to the vendor of the pads (which I bought over a year ago) and he told me to rebleed the lines. I might give that another go and see how it goes. I'm not 100% convinced that it's just the pads but I'm also not 100% convinced that it's not. Before I turned on the car yesterday I tried pumping the brakes and I could hear the pads squeak as I applied more pressure to them. Haven't heard that sound before so not sure if it's normal. Sounds like the pads getting squished or compressed which I don't think should be happening. __________________ froop's AW 135i Build Thread
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12-22-2013, 06:03 PM	#13
PrematureApex Colonel 840 Rep 2,402 Posts Drives: N55 X1, N54 135, s54 m3 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Philadelphia iTrader: (0)	It is certainly the pads. They are street pads, they will overheat/fade well before even average brake fluid gives out. It's a heavy car with small rotors. Unless you're just starting and/or very non-aggressive, no street pad will hold up to track days, period.
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12-22-2013, 07:14 PM	#14
froop Colonel 171 Rep 2,682 Posts Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (3)	Just to re-iterate. I did not expect the pads to function as a full race pad and did definitely expect brake fade. I also expected some brake shudder as people had been reporting and which I also experienced, although it was only very occasionally (once every 2 sessions or so). I did a lot of reading and research prior to selecting the pad. What I am querying is whether or not after being overheated to point of fade, do the pads become completely useless, because that possibly appears to be happening with me. I am still planning on rebleeding the brakes again and if that doesn't fix it I will pull the pads and check if they're glazed. __________________ froop's AW 135i Build Thread
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12-22-2013, 08:10 PM	#15
Kgolf31 Brigadier General 460 Rep 4,531 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Ohio iTrader: (4)	Once again....pedal going to the floor is boiling fluid, or air within the system. NOT THE PAD. Brake shudder is deposits being left on the rotor from the pad that is not meant to handle that abuse. You will know when a pad is faded, and failed. You'll have constant brake pressure and feel...but the car will not stop. Typically ABS will start to kick in as well and freak out. Side note...I don't know why people install SS lines.
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01-01-2014, 04:39 PM	#20
froop Colonel 171 Rep 2,682 Posts Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (3)	I re-bled the brakes again 2 days ago using SRF. Immediately after bleeding the brakes the pedal feels as stiff as stock but I wasn't able to go for a test immediately and had to let the car sit for a couple days. Today I took the car to work and I noticed that the pedal was soft again even before starting the car and still not as stiff when driving. It's still much better after this most recent bleeding but the pedal feel is still not stock like. I can actually feel the car stopping much better now though and whilst I can get the pedal to reach the floor, it actually requires a moderate amount of pressure where as before it only required a mild amount. When I can be bothered, I might bleed it one last time. __________________ froop's AW 135i Build Thread
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01-01-2014, 08:26 PM	#21
Kgolf31 Brigadier General 460 Rep 4,531 Posts Drives: 2007 Z4MC, 2012 128i Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Ohio iTrader: (4)	I think your master cylinder or something else is to blame here. Are you using a pressure bleeder?
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