JUST broke down

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by TMR013

Was at the Dealership the other day and had a good discussion on the HPFP issue with one of the SA's. He's convinced it's the gas we have in the States, and the seasonal ethenol additives and other enviromental changes we have. Makes the ECU overcompensate the lean/rich mix putting added stress on the seals and causing failure. He basically said it's a crapshoot on if you get the problem, and sometimes it's more severe than other times. Might be pulling it out of his ass but it really sounded to me like this guy knew his stuff.

If that were the case, the failure rate would be much higher. The pumps are all using the same seals, and most of us are getting ethonal, so it just doesn't explain why some pumps fail on ethonal and others don't.

[jspen]

I think the only way BMW is getting my business is a 2010 model if they fix everything or a M3. 09 and 08 1'ers seam to be junk (135's not 128's)

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

If that were the case, the failure rate would be much higher. The pumps are all using the same seals, and most of us are getting ethonal, so it just doesn't explain why some pumps fail on ethonal and others don't.

But it would explain the repeat failures. And different areas have different standards. That may explain the inconsistancy.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by TMR013

But it would explain the repeat failures. And different areas have different standards. That may explain the inconsistancy.

Yeah but if that were the case it would be easy to isolate by area. There's a ton of ethonal in the area where I live, and I'm over 30k miles on the original pump.

[Dave]

8 (

135i does not liek WOT at every light lol

sry this happened best of luck

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Yeah but if that were the case it would be easy to isolate by area. There's a ton of ethonal in the area where I live, and I'm over 30k miles on the original pump.

It's not just the ethonol. It's also the other junk they do to gas to save the enviroment. Things like other additives and according to the guy I talked to even the vaporization rate is adjusted.
Not saying it's the answer. But like I said, it at least it shows a causeal effect for the people who are having repeat failures. And it does seem to primarily be happening in the States. Would be really interesting to see some detailed stats on exactly where the failures (citys) are occuring.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by TMR013

It's not just the ethonol. It's also the other junk they do to gas to save the enviroment. Things like other additives and according to the guy I talked to even the vaporization rate is adjusted.
Not saying it's the answer. But like I said, it at least it shows a causeal effect for the people who are having repeat failures. And it does seem to primarily be happening in the States. Would be really interesting to see some detailed stats on exactly where the failures (citys) are occuring.

The thing is, it would be an easy fix if that were the case. There are lots of seal materials that hold up to ethonal with no problem. The issue wouldn't have been going on for 3 years if it were as simple as changing the seals.

I have my own theroy about the issue these days, and BMW's handling of it.

[takrdown]

I would be interested in your theory Jeremy if you are willing to share. This interests me...not just the solution, but the process and manufacturing standards. I find quality assurance to be a very interesting topic. Too bad some of us may be on the dark end of it though....

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by takrdown

I would be interested in your theory Jeremy if you are willing to share. This interests me...not just the solution, but the process and manufacturing standards. I find quality assurance to be a very interesting topic. Too bad some of us may be on the dark end of it though....

It's only a theory at this point, but the fact that BMW is willing to piss off so many customers on a widespread issue like this makes me think the cost of fixing it is much higher than just the pump.

I think it's possible the problem might be with the block itself, or the mechanical drive that's powering the pump. I think maybe there's something that's machined out of tolerence (or there's a design tolerence that wasn't tight enough to begin with), and fixing it will require either replacing the block, or pulling the engine and tearing it down.

That would explain why certain owners experience multiple failures while others have none, and it would explain why BMW hasn't been able to correct it. I think maybe they've spent all this time trying to alter the design of the pump so it will tolerate whatever is actually wrong, and it hasn't completely worked.

The failure rate seems to be reduced, but not completely corrected. The notion that they haven't been able to correct a simple materials issue with the seals after this much time just doesn't make sense to me. I may be completely wrong about it being the block, but I'm betting there's more to it than a simple seal or pump manufacturing issue for it to still be happening.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by TMR013

It's not just the ethonol. It's also the other junk they do to gas to save the enviroment. Things like other additives and according to the guy I talked to even the vaporization rate is adjusted.
Not saying it's the answer. But like I said, it at least it shows a causeal effect for the people who are having repeat failures. And it does seem to primarily be happening in the States. Would be really interesting to see some detailed stats on exactly where the failures (citys) are occuring.

Are you saying a "causal" relationship, or a "casual"?
"Causal" would mean that it's true, and we haven't seen that to be the case yet.

I agree, I too would like to see more detailed info regarding city/region and failure rate.
If someone were so inclined and had the time, you could go through the forum postings and list the owners showing HPFP failures and their locations. Next, would be to ask those owners which gas stations they used primarily and less often, just to get the info.

I don't know how exactly the fuel pump handles the fuel demand, as the pump is driven off a cam lobe as it needs to build a LOT of pressure.
However, I'd like to know how the system deals with excess pressure build up? IOW, let's say there is a 6000rpm in 2nd gear, this would cause a certain amount of pressure build up. The drives shifts to 3rd, but then shifts to 5th then 6th with the rpms at only below 3000rpm.
What happens to the built up pressure? Does the system vent the air?
Is the fuel pressurized like a home electric water pump where the water is pressurized as it's pumped? Or, is there an air pressure build up that is then routed to pressurize the fuel at a different point?

I ask because I wonder if a certain driving style adds excess pressure and the need to vent it, more often. We're not dealing with the old fashioned low pressure pumps of yester-year. These pumps have BIG amounts of PSI.

Also, does anyone know what EXACTLY is failing? Is it the seals? Is is the gears in the pump? Is it an onboard control of some kind? A vent? etc...

For the 2.0T FSI engine, such as used in the Audi A4, there is an aftermarket company (APR I believe) that builds a higher flow HPFP for higher tuning. The maker was having a tough time getting the units built to the exacting specs as these are not your run of the mill pumps.
They sell a kit that you can do yourself, or you can do a core exchange.

HPFP's are becoming very common with direct injection engines, and the 2.0T FSI has been out for some time, and hasn't had this type of problem using US fuel, Euro fuel, or any gasoline fuel.

I'm just curious, but does anyone have an online document or PDF that has drawings and spec's for how the BMW HPFP works?
Please post if you do. Thanks.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

It's only a theory at this point, but the fact that BMW is willing to piss off so many customers on a widespread issue like this makes me think the cost of fixing it is much higher than just the pump.

I think it's possible the problem might be with the block itself, or the mechanical drive that's powering the pump. I think maybe there's something that's machined out of tolerence (or there's a design tolerence that wasn't tight enough to begin with), and fixing it will require either replacing the block, or pulling the engine and tearing it down.

That would explain why certain owners experience multiple failures while others have none, and it would explain why BMW hasn't been able to correct it. I think maybe they've spent all this time trying to alter the design of the pump so it will tolerate whatever is actually wrong, and it hasn't completely worked.

The failure rate seems to be reduced, but not completely corrected. The notion that they haven't been able to correct a simple materials issue with the seals after this much time just doesn't make sense to me. I may be completely wrong about it being the block, but I'm betting there's more to it than a simple seal or pump manufacturing issue for it to still be happening.

Interesting.
Perhaps the cam lobe was cut wrong, and it's pushing too far causing a piston to ride farther than it's tolerance allows, over time?
I'd like to see how it works and is made in diagram form.

Yes, if the cam/lobe might be the issue then it would be a bit more work than just replacing the pump. But, it seems that replacing the cam/lobe would still be preferred over running the potential risk of a total "safety recall" where they would then have to do the repair for EVERY 135i that falls in the range.

[TMR013]

Are you saying a "causal" relationship, or a "casual"?
"Causal" would mean that it's true, and we haven't seen that to be the case yet.

Causal - implying a cause, not determining it to be true.

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Interesting.
Perhaps the cam lobe was cut wrong, and it's pushing too far causing a piston to ride farther than it's tolerance allows, over time?
I'd like to see how it works and is made in diagram form.

Yes, if the cam/lobe might be the issue then it would be a bit more work than just replacing the pump. But, it seems that replacing the cam/lobe would still be preferred over running the potential risk of a total "safety recall" where they would then have to do the repair for EVERY 135i that falls in the range.

It would not be every 135, it would be every N54 (i.e., all 135s, 335s, 535s and X6). Ouch!

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by lacrosse

It would not be every 135, it would be every N54 (i.e., all 135s, 335s, 535s and X6). Ouch!

True, true.

I do hope it's not "every" 135i. I'm still holding hope that my 6/23/09 build does have a "new" pump that won't have this problem.....I do hope.

[MOCKBA]

I am also curious what broke in the pump. It seems 3 ser share the same engine and the problem free.

[Zuzu]

Originally Posted by Robert

I feel all better that I am not the only one. My service engine light just came on and this is after a HPFP replacement. The car does run fine thou..

Mine did exactly the same thing after replacing the HPFP...Then came the ECU upgrade...

[lacrosse]

Originally Posted by Zuzu

Mine did exactly the same thing after replacing the HPFP...Then came the ECU upgrade...

Have BMW check for the wastegate actuator failure/turbo failure. The same thing happened to me.

[Lester]

If it was a fault in the HPFP, then does it also fail on the other models that uses the same pump? The original 320 pump is uses on many non-turbo engines. Or did BMW use an existing HPFP on the N54 that put additional stress on the components?

And if it is fuel related, are these other BMW's that use the same gasoline that 1-series drivers are using also causing failures?

These are questions that keep me up at nights.

Part 13537537320 (High-pressure pump) was found on the following vehicles:

E60N 535i Saloon, USA
E60N 535xi Saloon, USA
E60N 523i Saloon, Europe
E60N 525i Saloon, Europe
E60N 525xi Saloon, Europe
E60N 530i Saloon, Europe
E60N 530xi Saloon, Europe

E61N 535xi Touring, USA
E61N 523i Touring, Europe
E61N 525i Touring, Europe
E61N 525xi Touring, Europe
E61N 530i Touring, Europe
E61N 530xi Touring, Europe

E63N 630i Coupé, Europe

E64N 630i Convertible, Europe

E71 X6 35iX SAC, USA
E71 X6 35iX SAC, Europe

E82 135i Coupé, USA
E82 135i Coupé, Europe

E88 135i Convertible, USA
E88 135i Convertible, Europe

E90 335i Saloon, USA
E90 335xi Saloon, USA
E90 325i Saloon, Europe
E90 325xi Saloon, Europe
E90 330i Saloon, Europe
E90 330xi Saloon, Europe
E90 335i Saloon, Europe
E90 335xi Saloon, Europe

E91 325i Touring, Europe
E91 325xi Touring, Europe
E91 330i Touring, Europe
E91 330xi Touring, Europe
E91 335i Touring, Europe
E91 335xi Touring, Europe

E92 335i Coupé, USA
E92 335xi Coupé, USA
E92 325i Coupé, Europe
E92 325xi Coupé, Europe
E92 330i Coupé, Europe
E92 330xi Coupé, Europe
E92 335i Coupé, Europe
E92 335xi Coupé, Europe

E93 335i Convertible, USA
E93 325i Convertible, Europe
E93 330i Convertible, Europe
E93 335i Convertible, Europe

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by Lester

If it was a fault in the HPFP, then does it also fail on the other models that uses the same pump? The original 320 pump is uses on many non-turbo engines. Or did BMW use an existing HPFP on the N54 that put additional stress on the components?

And if it is fuel related, are these other BMW's that use the same gasoline that 1-series drivers are using also causing failures?

These are questions that keep me up at nights.

Part 13537537320 (High-pressure pump) was found on the following vehicles:

E60N 535i Saloon, USA
E60N 535xi Saloon, USA
E60N 523i Saloon, Europe
E60N 525i Saloon, Europe
E60N 525xi Saloon, Europe
E60N 530i Saloon, Europe
E60N 530xi Saloon, Europe

E61N 535xi Touring, USA
E61N 523i Touring, Europe
E61N 525i Touring, Europe
E61N 525xi Touring, Europe
E61N 530i Touring, Europe
E61N 530xi Touring, Europe

E63N 630i Coupé, Europe

E64N 630i Convertible, Europe

E71 X6 35iX SAC, USA
E71 X6 35iX SAC, Europe

E82 135i Coupé, USA
E82 135i Coupé, Europe

E88 135i Convertible, USA
E88 135i Convertible, Europe

E90 335i Saloon, USA
E90 335xi Saloon, USA
E90 325i Saloon, Europe
E90 325xi Saloon, Europe
E90 330i Saloon, Europe
E90 330xi Saloon, Europe
E90 335i Saloon, Europe
E90 335xi Saloon, Europe

E91 325i Touring, Europe
E91 325xi Touring, Europe
E91 330i Touring, Europe
E91 330xi Touring, Europe
E91 335i Touring, Europe
E91 335xi Touring, Europe

E92 335i Coupé, USA
E92 335xi Coupé, USA
E92 325i Coupé, Europe
E92 325xi Coupé, Europe
E92 330i Coupé, Europe
E92 330xi Coupé, Europe
E92 335i Coupé, Europe
E92 335xi Coupé, Europe

E93 335i Convertible, USA
E93 325i Convertible, Europe
E93 330i Convertible, Europe
E93 335i Convertible, Europe

Are all those cars experiencing pump failures? If it's only the ones outfitted with the N54 engine then it would lend some support for Jeremy's theory that the fuel pump failures are related to the design of the engine. Which is not good news

Though I'm not sure about some of the cars on your list. Why would the European E92 330i coupe have a HPFP? As far as I know it's a modified version of the N/A N52 and I thought HPFP's were only required on turbocharged models...

[Lester]

This search is from realoem. So it does look like that same pump is used on non turbo engines. Probably some decision maker at BMW with an MBA, rather than a mechanical engineering degree made the call to use something already in the parts bin. (Not that there is anything wrong with an MBA)

[moff]

Are these things failing as they are under more pressure in turbo charged cars?

I was also wondering if the situation was being exacerbated further still by tunes?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Lester

This search is from realoem. So it does look like that same pump is used on non turbo engines. Probably some decision maker at BMW with an MBA, rather than a mechanical engineering degree made the call to use something already in the parts bin. (Not that there is anything wrong with an MBA)

That list isn't right. The HPFP is only used on Direct Injected engines, and some of those aren't. As far as I know the only application for this pump is the N54. I think the part number you had was for the in-tank pump, which is the same on all of those, but not the problem.