manual vs auto - Need Advise

[singular]

Originally Posted by imported_mega

I guess mini owners are smarter

one thing bmw does is push automatics, that's mostly what's at a dealer

They know what sells, so they order them that way.

[FORCED AIR]

Originally Posted by bmwzone

Time for some AI:

Its easy to talk about, its easy to sum it up when you just talk about automatics. We sittin' in here, I'm supposed to be the BMW 135i, and we in here talkin' about automatics. I mean listen, we talkin bout automatics. Not a stick, not a stick, not a stick. We talkin bout automatics. Not a stick, not a, not a, not the stick that I go out there and die for, and drive it like I stole it. Not the stick. We talkin' bout automatics, man. I mean how silly is that? We talkin' bout automatics. I know I'm supposed to be here @ 1addicts and all, I know I'm supposed to lead by example by ordering my 135i with a stick obviously. I know that, and I'm not shovin' it aside, you know, like it don't mean anything. I know its important, I do. I honestly do. But we talkin' bout automatics, man. What are we talkin' bout? automatics? We talkin' bout automatics man. We talk... We talkin' bout automatics. We talkin' bout automatics. We ain't talkin' bout the stick, we talkin' bout automatics, man. When you pull outta the drive in a BMW 135i, and you see me take off like a jet, you see me fly, don't you? You see me give everything I got, right? But we talkin' bout automatics right now. We talkin' bout automatics. Man look, I hear you and this lag nonsense, its funny to me too. I mean, its strange, its strange to me too. But we talkin' bout automatics man. We not even talkin' bout the stick, the actual stick, when it matters. We talkin' bout automatics.

I mean "step" sorry to offend thee. Call mine a stick or anything else. It's the better car. Lots more people buy Honda Civics than any BMW don't make it better either. This thread is laughable.

Moderator?

wtf? Was there a point lost in there some where?

[imported_mega]

Originally Posted by singular

They know what sells, so they order them that way.

thats why we are forced into sunroofs too right?

[JimD]

Most of my miles are back and forth to work. First 6 miles has 10 stop lights. Next 18 miles has one. I've lived here 10 years. Last place I lived was 4 miles back and forth with about 4 stoplights and it took half an hour because of the traffic. My current 24 miles also takes about 30 minutes. I drive a manual now and I have for over 20 years. My first car was a manual and I've only purchased one automatic for myself. I've driven them in a lot of traffic. Once you have a feel for the car, takes maybe 10 minutes, you should not need to look at the tach or speedometer to shift for most driving. It's a little harder to hold your coffee mug while shifting or your cell phone but if you are driving, you have plenty of hands available and should not need to think very much about it. I use a bluetooth on my phone and wait to drink my coffee until I hit the highway.

One of the reasons I like manuals is they are cheaper intially and shouldn't ever need a rebuild if you don't mess up too much. Another key reason is I want to shift when I want to shift. If I start driving quickly, the last thing I want is some silly transmission shifting gears in the middle of something. A manual mode automatic could solve that but the only ones I've driven seemed silly to me. Not a true manual and not what I expect in an automatic either. Maybe I'd get used to it.

In terms of times, you should check the statistics. The 135i is about the same with the auto but not faster. The 128i is several tenths slower. An automatic looses part of the energy that it receives due to losses in the torque converter and heat generated in slipping in the clutches. When it locks up in top gear, the losses stop but until that occurs, you are loosing hp. Keeping a turbo spooled could offset it but just the simple mechanics of the transmission favors the manual. Quick shifts are more consistent with an auto, however. With enough hp, getting consistent shifts becomes more important but a really good driver with a manual should be faster than an equally skilled automatic driver - at least on a good day.

Jim

[singular]

Originally Posted by imported_mega

thats why we are forced into sunroofs too right?

Sure, why not? You can probably credit some marketing guru that said coupes with sunroofs sell more in the US than those without and that the volume on a delete option offers no significant financial upside.

[Dr3K0]

Originally Posted by Angry3

Absolutely true. I always get a chuckle out of the nonsense posted in these 6MT vs. Step threads. Anyone that says that either transmission is inherrently better than the other IMHO has their head in the sand. Every performance test that I've seen has them pretty much even up on the strip and the track.

I'm 35, and every car I've owned ('90 GT Mustang, '95 M3, '03 Accord V6 6MT, '03 Cobra, '05 GTO) up unitil 3 months ago has been a manual. My 135 is an automatic. Why?

1. The Step and N54 to me were a perfect match for one another. I had driven a 6MT 335 and liked it, but I was floored by the competence of the auto. To me, the best thing about the 1 is the TT engine and the tidal wave of torque that develops when it's on boost, and running the step in M mode up the gears produces a seamless, seemingly effortless flood of acceleration that's unlike anything else in its class. I was hooked within 5 minutes of driving my local dealer's launch car.

2. I live in a metro area, have 2 jobs, and now have a live in GF that can't drive a manual. In the world I live in, my 1 spends its life doing commuting duty, mixed in with an occasional back road romp or blast down an interstate on-ramp. The Step is perfect for that duty. It will putter along in D quietly and smoothly and get me 20 or so mpg, or it will go into M mode, rip off firm full-lock shifts, and have an uninitiated passenger close to soiling themself . And if I need to go to Lowes or take the dogs to the park, the GF can take the 1 to work and I can drive her soccer mom mobile (RX). For what I do, it's ideal. The Step makes the car both hugely practical and tons of fun, which is why I sold an LS2 GTO that I enjoyed immensley to get it.

The one thing that doesn't seem to get anywhere near enough attention in these threads is the difference in gearing. Yes, the final drive in the Step is shorter than the stick, but the bigger deal to me is the choice of transmission ratios. The Step has considerably wider gearing than the 6MT, so overall 1st gear is shorter, and 6th is taller. I think Step gearing works much better in practice with the TT engine. The N54 has so much torque everywhere that the close gearing in the 6MT almost seems like a waste, especially around town. Sure you can skip gears (as I expect a lot of the 6MT guys do), but I almost think the car would be a better drive with a 5-speed transmission. And I love the "tear your head off" 1st gear and taller, more relaxed top gear in the auto.

Bottom line, I think the cars are equally competent. The stick is a good one in true BMW fashion, and the folks that don't have the concerns I did with liveability and/or want the driver involvement should and will make it their choice. But this car with the Step IMO is special, and is a great choice as well. It all comes down to what your concerns are and what you plan to do with the car.

Good luck OP.

Very smart input sir. Im 33 and I spend most of my time with my family or at work. That being said, is the reason of my driving style, sprinter. I have my fun during "commutes", every time I can max out an exit ramp I go for it, everytime I can wave thru traffic I do. Usually Im late to everywere I have to go, so I haul ass. LOL !!

My biggest concern is the reliability of the step. I know people use them on the drag strip but that is not the same compared to a sprint. Let me explain my self. On the drag strip you abuse the tranny for 13 secs or less. On a sprint I can abuse that tranny for 30 min easily. Up/Down shift, red line the engine, some hard braking (I dont like to brake ). Pretty much like road race but not on the track. Before any old fart came on me and start preaching about road hazard and safety I do this when no one is on my way. Im not a inmature kid.

So as well when I dont feel like do anything so I go easy as any other Joe.



Does anyone has taken a step into a road track????



Thanks

DreX

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

In a straigh line, the auto will be faster. You simply can't shift as fast as it can, and I'm not sure what you're talking about "lethargic off the line". Autos will launch harder than a manual if you know what you're doing.

I drive a manual, but if it's drag racing we're talking about, the automatic has the advantage.

The ONLY reason manual transmissioned cars were faster than automatics in the past was the fact that they had more/tighter gear ratios. Both transmissions are 6 speeds in this case, so that advantage is gone and on top of that the automatic gets a lower final drive ratio.

Nope, not true. The pressure build up required for the slushbox to get full advantage zaps some of the power. And, depending on the valving in the auto trans, the shifts would be lethargic. Plus, off the line performance advantage goes to the manuals of old, because it would take just a wee bit for the automatic to ramp up.
That's the "lethargic" feeling off the line. Try it, but don't go WFO off the line. Just give it normal fast part throttle. The auto has an odd 'jump......uh throat clear....gooooo" feeling.
It's a great auto trans, but its' still a slushbox.

Now, you say, the auto is faster, but simply saying it doesn't make it true.
Show me the proof.
The auto will get more consistent readings as it doesn't rely on skill or technique, but on the technology. That's not a bad thing, don't get me wrong.
And, I've seen some numbers showing the auto getting about the same accel numbers. But, I want to see where the auto is "faster".

Having a shorter final drive, and getting the same numbers shows why the auto would not normally be as fast. But, shorter final drive also means higher cruising RPM, unless the overdrive gear is adjusted to compensate.

So, a nice performance upgrade for the 135i manual would be a final drive swap. Nice. It's the old RWD tricks of old.

[Yes2m3cs]

I sweated the manual vs. auto decision for months before ordering my 135, and finally went with the manual. (My commute is 80 miles a day!)Best decision I ever made!
Easiest stick tranny I have ever had, and I have had a bunch.

Car is amazing with the 6speed stick, DO IT

Good Luck

Brian

[imported_mega]

Originally Posted by singular

Sure, why not? You can probably credit some marketing guru that said coupes with sunroofs sell more in the US than those without and that the volume on a delete option offers no significant financial upside.

I think it's more about protecting the brand image in the US, not about what people want

you cant order cloth in the US either, but there are people like me that want cloth and no sunroof

they push automatics hard at the dealers, and they stock almost 100 % automatics. Most of us with manuals had to order them, they tried in the past to remove manual's as an option and too many enthusiasts complained

[bmwzone]

More profit in slushboxes also. Stick is more fun. Fact.

[singular]

Originally Posted by imported_mega

I think it's more about protecting the brand image in the US, not about what people want

you cant order cloth in the US either, but there are people like me that want cloth and no sunroof

they push automatics hard at the dealers, and they stock almost 100 % automatics. Most of us with manuals had to order them, they tried in the past to remove manual's as an option and too many enthusiasts complained

You might be right about the brand image and cloth or sunroof - that's also a reasonable explanation.

IMO the reason most dealerships have only a few manual tranny's in inventory is that they know they will sell more auto tranny's.

While this board is dominated by stick-enthusiasts, it's hardly representative of mainstream US buyers, even mainstream US BMW buyers. For whatever reason, relatively few US drivers buy or can even drive a stick.

The inventory at the dealerships is ordered on speculation. Why order a car that 95% of the drivers won't consider or can even test-drive? And if you don't have what the customer wants - try to sell him what you have.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

Not true at all. Go to www.n54tech.com, look at the 1/4mile times posted, and read up on what Terry from BMS has to say about the steptronic vs. manual in regards to holding boost between shifts. The fact is, 99% of the time, the automatic is going to be faster, due to the fact it can shift as fast, if not faster, than a manual, as well as its ability to hold more boost in-between shifts. It is also easier to build boost before launching with an automatic.. I'm not saying its impossible to be faster with a manual, i'm saying its common knowledge that if you want to run consistently faster 1/4mile times, get the auto.

I don't even have an automatic, I am just helping the original poster decide.
To the OP, I think it really comes down to your own choice, good luck, I think you will have a winner of a car either way

Really? Not at all?
C'mon. Then you must not understand how torque converters work.

I check'd out your suggestion, and I couldn't really find anything.
Could you link something more specific?

Also, please NO modded 0-60 and 1/4 times.
Once you start modding all bets are off, because we no longer have a standard by which to compare. Now, we are comparing way too many variables to come to any conclusion as to which variable made the difference.

The contention here is that the auto 135i is "faster" than the manual.
I'm assuming you guys are referring to accel tests in reference to "faster"?
0-60, 1/4, trap speed, etc...
In all the reading I have done on this car, I have not read one test showing the automatic being faster than the manual, STOCK.
Also, even BMW, you know the people who build the car , also say that their auto trans versions are slower in accel than the manual version.

The other aspect to why manual vs. auto, because as good as modern manuals are getting, and some better than others, nothing beats the driver knowing and selecting the gear needed for a particular turn.
Even one of the best automated manauls, Audi/VW, can be fooled in certain hard braking, tight turn scenarios. The trans will get confused as to which gear to pick. This is made even worse in slushbox auto.

Oh, and one thing I don't like about the sportronic, when coming to a complete stop, it goes to 2nd and doesn't go to 1st on it's own. You have to manually select 1st. I dont' like that. If it's going to be completely "automatic" then it needs to be just that.
There may be a way to adjust that, but I don't own that trans, I just test drove a number of them, and the sales people never said there was a way around it. They simply say, "oh, yeah just select 1st when that happens."

A torque converter by it's nature is lossier trans option. There is greater driveline loss in an automatic than a manual. A manual connects engine output directly to the trans gears by a clutch plate. An auto does it with a torque converter, this converter needs time to build pressure to get things going. Yes, modern auto's a much faster than days of old, but, the method is still the same.
In a manual, the driver controls power output from the engine with the throttle, and can control power transfer to the wheels with the clutch.
This control does not exist in an automatic.

[imported_mega]

I thought everyone knew a turbo is faster 1/4 mile with an automatic, for exactly the reasons posted

and I'm pretty sure every test I've read had the auto faster

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Angry3

Absolutely true. I always get a chuckle out of the nonsense posted in these 6MT vs. Step threads. Anyone that says that either transmission is inherrently better than the other IMHO has their head in the sand. Every performance test that I've seen has them pretty much even up on the strip and the track.

I'm 35, and every car I've owned ('90 GT Mustang, '95 M3, '03 Accord V6 6MT, '03 Cobra, '05 GTO) up unitil 3 months ago has been a manual. My 135 is an automatic. Why?

1. The Step and N54 to me were a perfect match for one another. I had driven a 6MT 335 and liked it, but I was floored by the competence of the auto. To me, the best thing about the 1 is the TT engine and the tidal wave of torque that develops when it's on boost, and running the step in M mode up the gears produces a seamless, seemingly effortless flood of acceleration that's unlike anything else in its class. I was hooked within 5 minutes of driving my local dealer's launch car.

2. I live in a metro area, have 2 jobs, and now have a live in GF that can't drive a manual. In the world I live in, my 1 spends its life doing commuting duty, mixed in with an occasional back road romp or blast down an interstate on-ramp. The Step is perfect for that duty. It will putter along in D quietly and smoothly and get me 20 or so mpg, or it will go into M mode, rip off firm full-lock shifts, and have an uninitiated passenger close to soiling themself . And if I need to go to Lowes or take the dogs to the park, the GF can take the 1 to work and I can drive her soccer mom mobile (RX). For what I do, it's ideal. The Step makes the car both hugely practical and tons of fun, which is why I sold an LS2 GTO that I enjoyed immensley to get it.

The one thing that doesn't seem to get anywhere near enough attention in these threads is the difference in gearing. Yes, the final drive in the Step is shorter than the stick, but the bigger deal to me is the choice of transmission ratios. The Step has considerably wider gearing than the 6MT, so overall 1st gear is shorter, and 6th is taller. I think Step gearing works much better in practice with the TT engine. The N54 has so much torque everywhere that the close gearing in the 6MT almost seems like a waste, especially around town. Sure you can skip gears (as I expect a lot of the 6MT guys do), but I almost think the car would be a better drive with a 5-speed transmission. And I love the "tear your head off" 1st gear and taller, more relaxed top gear in the auto.

Bottom line, I think the cars are equally competent. The stick is a good one in true BMW fashion, and the folks that don't have the concerns I did with liveability and/or want the driver involvement should and will make it their choice. But this car with the Step IMO is special, and is a great choice as well. It all comes down to what your concerns are and what you plan to do with the car.

Good luck OP.

So, according to what you've stated, the step is NOT "faster" than the manual.
That's what I'm saying too.

It's not a silly question because one has the option to decide what they want for whatever reason they want it.
And, since you're older, maybe not old enough though, you SHOULD know that before the advent of modern automatics, manuals held the advantage every time in accel, MPG, etc...
Yes, that gap has narrowed, and in some factors the auto's exceed the manual, like some auto's getting better MPG in the city or highway.
And, high torque engines have had very narrow accel performance differences between auto and manual.

However, the "feel" of sport driving an automatic is not the same as the manual, simply by virtue of having to continually use the clutch, brake, throttle, and shifter.
For some, for their reasons, that's not what they like or want. Cool. For some, that is exactly why they want a manual.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by imported_mega

I thought everyone knew a turbo is faster 1/4 mile with an automatic, for exactly the reasons posted

and I'm pretty sure every test I've read had the auto faster

Post them, PLEASE.

I'm part of "everyone" and I did not know this.

[imported_mega]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Post them, PLEASE.

I'm part of "everyone" and I did not know this.
The only truth, for turbo engine past and present, is that they hold boost better during gear changes. It ends there.

that's exactly what does it, they hold boost

The forum used to have a sticky of all the reviews, a few of them mentioned the auto being faster, but all those links are dead now thanks to the crappy server merger

[singular]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Really? Not at all?
C'mon. Then you must not understand how torque converters work.

I check'd out your suggestion, and I couldn't really find anything.
Could you link something more specific?

Also, please NO modded 0-60 and 1/4 times.
Once you start modding all bets are off, because we no longer have a standard by which to compare. Now, we are comparing way too many variables to come to any conclusion as to which variable made the difference.

The contention here is that the auto 135i is "faster" than the manual.
I'm assuming you guys are referring to accel tests in reference to "faster"?
0-60, 1/4, trap speed, etc...
In all the reading I have done on this car, I have not read one test showing the automatic being faster than the manual, STOCK.
Also, even BMW, you know the people who build the car , also say that their auto trans versions are slower in accel than the manual version.

The other aspect to why manual vs. auto, because as good as modern manuals are getting, and some better than others, nothing beats the driver knowing and selecting the gear needed for a particular turn.
Even one of the best automated manauls, Audi/VW, can be fooled in certain hard braking, tight turn scenarios. The trans will get confused as to which gear to pick. This is made even worse in slushbox auto.

Oh, and one thing I don't like about the sportronic, when coming to a complete stop, it goes to 2nd and doesn't go to 1st on it's own. You have to manually select 1st. I dont' like that. If it's going to be completely "automatic" then it needs to be just that.
There may be a way to adjust that, but I don't own that trans, I just test drove a number of them, and the sales people never said there was a way around it. They simply say, "oh, yeah just select 1st when that happens."

A torque converter by it's nature is lossier trans option. There is greater driveline loss in an automatic than a manual. A manual connects engine output directly to the trans gears by a clutch plate. An auto does it with a torque converter, this converter needs time to build pressure to get things going. Yes, modern auto's a much faster than days of old, but, the method is still the same.
In a manual, the driver controls power output from the engine with the throttle, and can control power transfer to the wheels with the clutch.
This control does not exist in an automatic.

Also, it seems the sportronic needs a lower final gear in order to stay competitive with the manual version. So, IOW, there is gearing advantage given to the auto to help it in comparison to the manual.

BTW, a performance upgrade for a manual could be a final drive swap from an auto. Anyone try it?

It's steptronic - not sportronic.

With step, you can drive in manual mode and put the car in whatever gear you want so arguments based on the auto selecting the wrong gear don't carry any weight. In manual mode it does up-shift to prevent redline and it downshifts when you drop into really low RPM's, but I've never seen the "nanny-shifter" kick-in earlier than I would have shifted. True, you can't play with a clutch and you lose some of the intuitive feel you get with the stick position, but you get used to the differences pretty fast. The biggest disadvantage I've seen is the lack of launch control, and others have found ways around that.

The fact that the argument of which tranny is faster comes up in every manual vs. step thread shows that we are splitting hairs. There's no definitive proof either way and the difference in acceleration is probably minimal. In an all out race, the capabilities of the driver will make more of a difference than the specific tranny.

The 135 is a beast with either tranny.

[imported_mega]

there is absolute proof which is faster, I'll try to find the reviews that document it tonight

it's a well known fact that auto's dont drop boost like the manuals do when you shift

[bmwzone]

Why does MT for example use manual trannies in their comparison of the Camaro SS-Mustang GT-Challenger R/T in the latest issue? Slushbox all the way in a sports car !

[bimmerboy]

Originally Posted by imported_mega

there is absolute proof which is faster, I'll try to find the reviews that document it tonight

it's a well known fact that auto's dont drop boost like the manuals do when you shift

Thank you... RPM90, have you even driven both? I have, and it was pretty obvious to me and i'm sure to others that, you must be damn quick, almost borderline abusive to the manual transmission, to shift faster than a steptronic/DCT 135. I'm done arguing with you. Good luck OP, both transmissions are a blast to drive.

[Dr3K0]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Having a shorter final drive, and getting the same numbers shows why the auto would not normally be as fast. But, shorter final drive also means higher cruising RPM, unless the overdrive gear is adjusted to compensate.

So, a nice performance upgrade for the 135i manual would be a final drive swap. Nice. It's the old RWD tricks of old.

BINGO!

I came to the same conlusion a while ago.

[imported_mega]

Originally Posted by Dr3K0

BINGO!

I came to the same conlusion a while ago.

just put in a automatic quaife diff, I think they are 3500 $ complete

our manuals are welded on, at least that's what I've read it's confusing, some are bolted some are welded