Help From Those Who Know Coilovers

[greensto]

I am looking into buying coilovers for my 135i. I previously had Vogtland coilovers on my Audi A4 and was told that they were "linear springs with helper springs." Not exactly too sure that that means I enjoyed them, but did not previously have sport suspension on the Audi and the coilovers did not necessarily make the ride feel "sporty." However, adjusting the height was very simple and I never had any issues with them.

Now, with a sportier suspension on my 135i, I was looking into ST coilovers, but can't help to wonder about how the Vogtland's might feel on my car. I believe that the Vogtlands are a twin tube design while the ST's have a monotube design. Can anyone else help me better understand some differences between the two coilovers- ride quality, stiffness, feel.


Vogtlands




ST

[andrey_gta]

I dont have all the answers, but I read somewhere that ST is the same as Vogland. A forum had pictures where there was the same part numbers on the shocks.

Someone also did have voglands on the 135i ( he bought it that way), I think he had feedback in his FS ad.

[greensto]

Originally Posted by andrey_gta

I dont have all the answers, but I read somewhere that ST is the same as Vogland. A forum had pictures where there was the same part numbers on the shocks.

Someone also did have voglands on the 135i ( he bought it that way), I think he had feedback in his FS ad.

I thought the ST's are the same as the KW V1's except for the material/coating, not the Vogtlands. I read the feedback from the other member, but did not get the answers I needed. Maybe I'll just have to be the guinea pig for the Vogtlands and try them out

[andrey_gta]

Yes ST is a cheaper KW v1

What i'm saying is that its possible that Vogland is a cheaper ST. I am not sure of the actual differences

[greensto]

Actual differences are what I need info about

[Eyeman]

This is the first that I've heard Vogtlands mentioned since 2009. I almost bought a set back then. My impression was they were very similar to KW V1s, I don't think the designs are different. I really was not very worried about design/spring rate, etc. I was actually leaning towards them strange enough because I don't like the color of KWs. The prices were similar and then a distributor offered me KWs at a great price and I snapped them up.

So for me it just came down to price.

[greensto]

Unless anyone has any bad experience with them or information as to why they wouldn't be a great buy, I will be purchasing a set and doing a review so I can share with you guys.

[1speedbike]

The only difference I know of is that STs / Vogtlands do not have an anti-rust coating while the KWs do, and KW offers a lifetime warranty whereas the others don't. It's not a big deal. Other than the fact that V2 and V3 have adjustable dampening and not just adjustable height, obviously. I think the only reason to worry about it is if you live in a place where they use road salt for snow, or live close to the ocean and get the salty breeze hitting your car. Even then, it's not a big deal. This is my second winter with ST coils, and I don't notice any excessive rust.

[greensto]

Originally Posted by 1speedbike

The only difference I know of is that STs / Vogtlands do not have an anti-rust coating while the KWs do, and KW offers a lifetime warranty whereas the others don't. It's not a big deal. Other than the fact that V2 and V3 have adjustable dampening and not just adjustable height, obviously. I think the only reason to worry about it is if you live in a place where they use road salt for snow, or live close to the ocean and get the salty breeze hitting your car. Even then, it's not a big deal. This is my second winter with ST coils, and I don't notice any excessive rust.

I live in Florida, so I think I'll be fine! Thanks for the info

[IGoFast1589]

Originally Posted by greensto

I am looking into buying coilovers for my 135i. I previously had Vogtland coilovers on my Audi A4 and was told that they were "linear springs with helper springs." Not exactly too sure that that means I enjoyed them, but did not previously have sport suspension on the Audi and the coilovers did not necessarily make the ride feel "sporty." However, adjusting the height was very simple and I never had any issues with them.

Now, with a sportier suspension on my 135i, I was looking into ST coilovers, but can't help to wonder about how the Vogtland's might feel on my car. I believe that the Vogtlands are a twin tube design while the ST's have a monotube design. Can anyone else help me better understand some differences between the two coilovers- ride quality, stiffness, feel.


Vogtlands




ST

They seem to be pretty similar if you are sure you want a coilover setup. I think 99% of people would be satisfied with a good spring/damper combination, but it's your call. I like the fact that they both use helper springs in the front. If the suspension becomes fully unloaded the helper will keep tension on the main spring for a more consistent feel. You can also adjust the ride height and not effect the load on the main spring while the car is sitting static.

Damper technology for cars has come a long way over the past few years and monotube dampers are the way to go. They are better a dissipating heat and will thus ride better as the fluid in damper will have a more consistent viscosity and it will react more quickly to road imperfections that a twin tube. I haven't seen any shock dyno plots for either of their dampers, but I am sure they're designed to be comfortable and "sporty".

[greensto]

Originally Posted by IGoFast1589

They seem to be pretty similar if you are sure you want a coilover setup. I think 99% of people would be satisfied with a good spring/damper combination, but it's your call. I like the fact that they both use helper springs in the front. If the suspension becomes fully unloaded the helper will keep tension on the main spring for a more consistent feel. You can also adjust the ride height and not effect the load on the main spring while the car is sitting static.

Damper technology for cars has come a long way over the past few years and monotube dampers are the way to go. They are better a dissipating heat and will thus ride better as the fluid in damper will have a more consistent viscosity and it will react more quickly to road imperfections that a twin tube. I haven't seen any shock dyno plots for either of their dampers, but I am sure they're designed to be comfortable and "sporty".

Thank you!! Very helpful

[IGoFast1589]

Originally Posted by greensto

Thank you!! Very helpful

Anytime mate.

[SfValley335i]

Vogtlands and ST are the same shocks/struts, Springs rates are different, both are progressive.

ST has a shorter warranty period than Vogtland.

ST coils ship from the US, while Vogtlands ship from Germany.

[greensto]

Originally Posted by SfValley335i

Vogtlands and ST are the same shocks/struts, Springs rates are different, both are progressive.

ST has a shorter warranty period than Vogtland.

ST coils ship from the US, while Vogtlands ship from Germany.

Are spring rates stiffer on Vogtland or ST?

[1speedbike]

Originally Posted by greensto

Are spring rates stiffer on Vogtland or ST?

I found a link that has some helpful information. I know it isn't about the 1 series, but it's sort of helpful, I guess..

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2407706

Turns out the spring rates (at least for their cars), are the same on both. I'm seeing the vogtlands priced cheaper on average than the STs, and they have a 10 year warranty vs ST's 5 year. They mention in that thread, though, that Vogtland North America is like a "ghost town" (their words, hah). I don't remember ever even seeing mention of them when I was shopping for coilovers a couple years ago.

[greensto]

Ordered the Vogtlands! I'll be doing a review for you guys soon!

[tracer bullet]

Just some thoughts on springs -

"Helper" springs do two things - one is to soften the ride a little bit through the first part of suspension travel (their rate and the main spring rate combine into a much softer total). Once the helper springs coil bind you go to the main spring rate alone. That can be nice for a daily driver to have the first bit of travel be soft, or odd if you just want linear the whole way through and don't want a transition from one to the other. The other thing the helper springs do is tend to keep everything together if your suspension is hanging (opposite of bottoming out). If your main spring is real stiff and rather short, the helper spring will take up the slack any time things are really extended - car in the air doing work on it, maybe during driving...

Looking at your pictures, I don't see any helper springs.

Also looking at your pictures, the conical shape to the springs says they aren't linear, they will be slightly progressive. Any spring rates talked about will have to also have an indication of at what point they have that particular rate. Is it the starting rate when weight is first applied, the rate they have with the weight of the car on them, something else?

[IGoFast1589]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Just some thoughts on springs -

"Helper" springs do two things - one is to soften the ride a little bit through the first part of suspension travel (their rate and the main spring rate combine into a much softer total). Once the helper springs coil bind you go to the main spring rate alone. That can be nice for a daily driver to have the first bit of travel be soft, or odd if you just want linear the whole way through and don't want a transition from one to the other. The other thing the helper springs do is tend to keep everything together if your suspension is hanging (opposite of bottoming out). If your main spring is real stiff and rather short, the helper spring will take up the slack any time things are really extended - car in the air doing work on it, maybe during driving...

Looking at your pictures, I don't see any helper springs.

Also looking at your pictures, the conical shape to the springs says they aren't linear, they will be slightly progressive. Any spring rates talked about will have to also have an indication of at what point they have that particular rate. Is it the starting rate when weight is first applied, the rate they have with the weight of the car on them, something else?

You are referring to a tender spring. A helper is fully compressed when the car is static and has a rate of only 10lbs or so. Just enough to keep pressure on the main spring.

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by greensto

Ordered the Vogtlands! I'll be doing a review for you guys soon!

Awesome. Can you share the part number you got?


Cant wait to learn more about Vogland vs ST
Take lots of pics, esp spring labels

[SteveAZ]

So here's what you posted in the other thread....

Originally Posted by greensto

I heard great things about KW's and ST's. I had Vogtlands on my Audi A4, always enjoyed them, and saw these for $796 shipped:



link:
http://www.drivtechonline.com/Vogtla...e87-968395.htm

and for reference, the rear springs that go with that setup.


See how there are 2 springs instead of one for the frunt strut? That top spring is a helper spring. Also see how the coils are linear (same spacing) as opposed to progressive where the coil spacing differs? Those are totally different than the Vogtlands you posted in this thread.

That is what I was refering to....

I think most suspension gurus are recommending a linear spring and a good one at that so that they don't distort under compession load.

Full setup for $800 though, would definitely have me a bit concerned if I were looking for handling and not just to lower my car. JMO

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by IGoFast1589

You are referring to a tender spring. A helper is fully compressed when the car is static and has a rate of only 10lbs or so. Just enough to keep pressure on the main spring.

True, my mistake. It's gotten to where everyone calls any 2nd spring a helper spring to the point where I am doing it now too. You are right, I should have been more clear.

[greensto]

How do these look?