BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-27-2015, 01:07 PM   #1
champignon
Disrupter
champignon's Avatar
United_States
1562
Rep
2,484
Posts

Drives: 1M;Z3M Cp;135is Vert, 996TT
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Idaho

iTrader: (0)

Used Vehicles that Don't Sell

I've settled into a routine of poring over the online sales ads for used 1-Series, 1M, M3, and Z3/M Coupes that one can find for sale on the various websites such as ebay, Autotrader, CL, and occasionally others such as cargurus and cars.com. I'm not really in the market this instant, due to constrained storage space (and maybe also too much money already tied up in cars :-) ) but you never know.

I am, in all honesty, amazed at how many of these cars just sit and sit and sit for many weeks, many months, even a couple of years, never selling, or appearing to sell (if you can believe the seller) then mysteriously reappearing for sale by the same seller/dealer a short time later, usually for exactly the same price or very very close.

Sometimes it is because a seller expects to get reimbursed for modifications done to the car, even though in the eye of most "collectors," bone stock cars are preferred and anything changed deserves a deduction in the price. Sometimes it is because the seller searched very hard for a car with a particular set of features (exterior color, suspension, stereo, etc.) that he feels makes the car worth more, while not realizing that to many potential buyers those same features aren't worth very much. And sometimes it is just the "overpriced turkey" phenomenon, that term having been used once by a realtor I was working with to describe certain houses perpetually on the market.

All of these above explanations merely illustrate a failure on the part of the sellers to realize that cars, like anything else, sell based upon supply and demand. Any desirable car (with the possible exception of some that are extremely rare and stratospherically priced) should sell within a month or so, in my opinion, if they are priced to the market. That market might be really really low for something like a 5 year old high mileage Chevy Aveo, but there is an equilibrium of supply and demand for most anything. Sometimes you find (unintentionally) revealing text in sales listings, stuff like, "I'm only asking what I owe, so the price is firm," the assumption being that the buyer will pay more for the car now that he knows the seller owes more on the car than the car is worth . . . .

How long would you sit on a car you wanted to sell that you had up for sale and that was not selling? If I was selling it myself, I don't think I could wait more than a month, or if selling on consignment through a dealer, 3 months would be about tops for me, I think.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2015, 10:06 PM   #2
Bimmer-Bob
!
Bimmer-Bob's Avatar
United_States
692
Rep
3,266
Posts

Drives: 2010 128i
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
While collectors might desire bone stock cars, most (if not all) buyers for these cars are not serious collectors. While I would never expect my mods to command any sort of premium, I would tell any potential buyer trying to make all sorts of "deductions" to my asking price to pound sand.

My car is not on the market, but I guess if it was and I had to sell quickly, I'd be at the mercy of the buyers interested at that particular moment, and certainly not in any kind of position of power. But ideally if I were to sell, I wouldn't be in any rush to do so. I have a low mileage, slick top 128i with xenons and a 6MT - not an undesirable combination. I think it's been pretty tastefully modded, but I do understand that my tastes are not universal, and that some give and take is part and parcel of any negotiation. That said, the last thing I would put up with is a buyer nitpicking every little thing and expecting a corresponding price break. At some point I'd them, "maybe this isn't the car for you."
__________________
____________________________
Appreciate 1
      07-27-2015, 10:54 PM   #3
champignon
Disrupter
champignon's Avatar
United_States
1562
Rep
2,484
Posts

Drives: 1M;Z3M Cp;135is Vert, 996TT
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Idaho

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
At some point I'd them, "maybe this isn't the car for you."
When I said that mods deserved a deduction in the price, I was mostly talking about mods that either require upkeep to maintain (or risk deterioration to the vehicle as a whole as regards function, i.e. ability to roll) or to mods that are rather ugly, like some of the wide body and carbon fiber shit everywhere that one sees . . . .

When one is a seller it always pays to have what one writer (Michael Kinsley) once referred to as, "fuckyouability," i.e. to say the obvious to someone you don't care to deal with. In my real life I own some commercial real estate and have to deal with potential buyers and renters I'd rather not deal with, so fuckyouability is certainly something I cherish and appreciate.

What I was writing about mostly was people who have BMWs for sale who just don't seem to want to sell them at a price that others will willingly pay. If you have a potentially desirable used/vintage car for sale, you get offers, but you just can't make a deal and persist, for many weeks and/or months at trying to get the last dollar out of your vehicle, I think you likely risk losing whatever opportunities you had initially to sell the car. One thing that happens is that sellers get lazier and lazier and just repost the same ads over and over again, with few changes. The result is that those most likely to buy, those who keep their eyes on the listings, stop looking at your listing, they just think, "saw that 12 times already, no point in clicking on the ad again, how boring."
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2015, 03:35 AM   #4
iminhell1
C2H5OH
iminhell1's Avatar
United_States
3907
Rep
2,141
Posts

Drives: 2010 SG 135i auto
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Darwin, MN

iTrader: (1)

From the 'takingforevertosell' cars I've seen, they are either niche market or (I feel) asking too much. I find it really abnormal that there can be a swing of nearly 50,000 miles but the asking price holds the same depending on options. I haven't really looked for many cars but that's the one thing that's struck me. ... but I haven't really taken the time to graph out what options add value and makeup the loss for miles.
There are a couple that are previous damage cars and those I'm leary about, mostly because the owners did the work themselves and I don't know their standards.
And looking back through the archives, I do kinda think some have bought car to try and turn a profit. Put 20,000 miles on, have fun and put it up for what they paid except now it needs tires and brakes.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2015, 05:14 AM   #5
fun2drv
Lieutenant
fun2drv's Avatar
United_States
260
Rep
558
Posts

Drives: '19 M5 Comp
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Columbia, TN

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2023 BMW M5  [10.00]
2023 BMW M5  [0.00]
It all depends... Back in Sep 2013 I put my '04 E46 M3 up for sale in Autotrader.com and in less than 24 hours the car was gone and I had a check in hand for the full asking price...
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2015, 06:54 AM   #6
IEDEI
Banned
United_States
1129
Rep
4,686
Posts

Drives: L'Orange
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 BMW 1M  [8.40]
Quote:
Originally Posted by fun2drv
It all depends... Back in Sep 2013 I put my '04 E46 M3 up for sale in Autotrader.com and in less than 24 hours the car was gone and I had a check in hand for the full asking price...
I think the M3 is a more mainstream car.

Stuff like the Z3/Z4, 1M, and even some 128s and 135s (manual, sport pkg) are more niche cars with very specific buyers. The average consumer sticks with the more well known mainstream cars while the more unique buyer is looking for something unique.

Dealers totally know this....and they market these as such. They are not afraid to let them sit for a bit because in the end they know the right buyer will find these cars.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2015, 08:28 AM   #7
champignon
Disrupter
champignon's Avatar
United_States
1562
Rep
2,484
Posts

Drives: 1M;Z3M Cp;135is Vert, 996TT
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Idaho

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
I think the M3 is a more mainstream car.

Stuff like the Z3/Z4, 1M, and even some 128s and 135s (manual, sport pkg) are more niche cars with very specific buyers. The average consumer sticks with the more well known mainstream cars while the more unique buyer is looking for something unique.

Dealers totally know this....and they market these as such. They are not afraid to let them sit for a bit because in the end they know the right buyer will find these cars.
I follow the Z3/M Coupe market and those cars tend to sell quickly. There may not be a large number of potential buyers, but the market seems to be in balance, more or less, and there is a buyer for every coupe, just about, as long as the seller is not too greedy. There are several dealers for these cars who tend to charge very high prices, which to some extent they can get away with, but once their buyers try to turn the cars and sell them for what they paid (or more) they realize that without the "EAG" or similar moniker they can't get back what they paid out.

The M3 market appears to me to be the most dysfunctional, and also to have the highest percentage of heavily modified cars whose owners don't appear to be realistic about what they can get for them.

135i cars with lots of miles (for their age) tend also to be very overpriced, in my view, and as pointed out earlier in this thread. People regularly try to get in the high 20 and mid-30 thousands for these cars with several years of age and 50K + miles, when similarly equipped cars with less age and miles are asking the same sorts of prices. Makes no sense and explains to a large extent why these cars sit and sit and sit. When the sellers reduce the prices (usually by a small amount) and then flag their listings as "Price Reduced !!!) it looks even more ridiculous when the new asking price is still several thousand (or more dollars) over the real value of the car, when actual sales are taken into consideration.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2015, 05:26 PM   #8
Bimmer-Bob
!
Bimmer-Bob's Avatar
United_States
692
Rep
3,266
Posts

Drives: 2010 128i
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
When I said that mods deserved a deduction in the price, I was mostly talking about mods that either require upkeep to maintain (or risk deterioration to the vehicle as a whole as regards function, i.e. ability to roll) or to mods that are rather ugly, like some of the wide body and carbon fiber shit everywhere that one sees . . . .
I get what you're saying, but part of me also thinks it's a little bit absurd for a seller to be making demands based on what they think a particular car should be. If I ever sell my 1er, it will be as a modified vehicle, and I would quickly lose patience with a shopper who expected me to reduce my asking price based on said modifications - I've already factored it in. If a buyer wants a stock vehicle, it should be on them to keep searching the market for one or accept what is on offer, not on me to subsidize the conversion of my vehicle back to stock.

That said, I do agree that it is equally absurd when sellers expect to recoup their modification costs during resale of their vehicles. Mod money is basically lost money IMO.

Some give and take from both parties is part and parcel of any good negotiation, but there is a fine line between driving a hard bargain and tire-kicking. I think some of these frequent shoppers are serial low-ballers who are more interested in a good deal than a good car, and will make 100 unrealistic offers hoping for a single bite.

I think it really comes down to how motivated the seller is to move the vehicle. If someone is in no hurry and doesn't mind fielding phone calls and email queries, then they can wait for months for the right buyer to come along.
__________________
____________________________
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2015, 06:11 PM   #9
champignon
Disrupter
champignon's Avatar
United_States
1562
Rep
2,484
Posts

Drives: 1M;Z3M Cp;135is Vert, 996TT
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Idaho

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
. . .

If a buyer wants a stock vehicle, it should be on them to keep searching the market for one or accept what is on offer, not on me to subsidize the conversion of my vehicle back to stock.

That said, I do agree that it is equally absurd when sellers expect to recoup their modification costs during resale of their vehicles. Mod money is basically lost money IMO.

Some give and take from both parties is part and parcel of any good negotiation, but there is a fine line between driving a hard bargain and tire-kicking. I think some of these frequent shoppers are serial low-ballers who are more interested in a good deal than a good car, and will make 100 unrealistic offers hoping for a single bite.

I think it really comes down to how motivated the seller is to move the vehicle. If someone is in no hurry and doesn't mind fielding phone calls and email queries, then they can wait for months for the right buyer to come along.
Sellers need to consider the buyer and the hassle factor involved in selling and in my experience they often do not. I am not a "serial low baller," but at the same time I expect to get a good deal, because if I didn't then there would be no point in putting in the substantial effort I put in before each purchase; there is always a dealer with a supposedly clean, low mileage car out there willing to charge way over market if you care to deal with the likes of EAG and several others. So, buying from a PP does not mean that the PP should receive "EAG-type" prices for their vehicle unless it is truly special (and few are).

My experience in trying to buy used 1-Series cars has largely been low yield, although at this point I have "succeeded" in buying the 2 vehicles I was searching for, a 1M and now a 135i, which is enroute as I type this. I try not to waste anyone's time, but I also do not intend to overpay. I'm a cash buyer and make that clear at the first contact, that I don't have to get financing and if we can make a deal, the funds can be wired immediately. That, in my opinion, is worth something. As a sometimes seller, it is certainly worth something to me to know that the buyer can actually execute the transaction, and time is money.

What I've found is that in at least half of my interactions with sellers they have an inflated view of the resale value of their cars, they refuse reasonable offers, and either they still own the cars a month or two later that they are still trying to sell at an inflated price, or they have reduced their price to equal or less than what I offered, but by then I'm no longer interested. Sometimes the first offer you get as a seller is really your best offer, if you factor in the time value of money and the waste of your own time in trying to unload a vehicle, always looking to get the last nickel.

Last edited by champignon; 07-28-2015 at 06:15 PM.. Reason: grammer
Appreciate 0
      07-29-2015, 03:06 AM   #10
Solo_M_Tech
Brigadier General
Solo_M_Tech's Avatar
United_States
1686
Rep
3,139
Posts

Drives: 2014 M5 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Massachusetts

iTrader: (7)

Garage List
2014 BMW M5  [0.00]
In 90% of car sales, it's the buyers advantage. In my expirience, trying to sell a modified car is almost impossible. You HAVE to find a buyer that has the same interest, passion, and expirience that you do. He has to appreciate the work and the vision. This drastically limits your market. However, when you find that buyer, the car will sell at or slightly over market value.
__________________
2014 M5 6MT
Appreciate 0
      07-29-2015, 01:27 PM   #11
DJKapeesh
Lieutenant
DJKapeesh's Avatar
311
Rep
469
Posts

Drives: 11' 135i, 13' 911 C2S, 10' X5D
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (1)

I have only had my car about a year and a half but I feel as I start to get out from upside down into the positive equity on price I post my car to see what the market has to say.

Currently I have my car up for sale on this forum for near kbb market value which happens to be about what is owed. In this situation I am in no hurry to sell and know that only the right buyer will be interested in paying market value for all options and a white/red color combo and DCT. That being the case If I plan to pick up another car in the future (1 year from now) I will have the car posted and drop the price as mileage rises. In 1 year the car will be around dealer trade in value and proceed to do a trade in if it does not sell and wanted to pick up an M2 or something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
135i cars with lots of miles (for their age) tend also to be very overpriced, in my view, and as pointed out earlier in this thread. People regularly try to get in the high 20 and mid-30 thousands for these cars with several years of age and 50K + miles, when similarly equipped cars with less age and miles are asking the same sorts of prices. Makes no sense and explains to a large extent why these cars sit and sit and sit. When the sellers reduce the prices (usually by a small amount) and then flag their listings as "Price Reduced !!!) it looks even more ridiculous when the new asking price is still several thousand (or more dollars) over the real value of the car, when actual sales are taken into consideration.
This might describe me and in the end it looks like trade in is in the future without the right buyer.

Last edited by DJKapeesh; 07-29-2015 at 01:35 PM..
Appreciate 0
      07-29-2015, 05:17 PM   #12
champignon
Disrupter
champignon's Avatar
United_States
1562
Rep
2,484
Posts

Drives: 1M;Z3M Cp;135is Vert, 996TT
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Idaho

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJKapeesh View Post
I have only had my car about a year and a half but I feel as I start to get out from upside down into the positive equity on price I post my car to see what the market has to say.

Currently I have my car up for sale on this forum for near kbb market value which happens to be about what is owed. In this situation I am in no hurry to sell and know that only the right buyer will be interested in paying market value for all options and a white/red color combo and DCT. That being the case If I plan to pick up another car in the future (1 year from now) I will have the car posted and drop the price as mileage rises. In 1 year the car will be around dealer trade in value and proceed to do a trade in if it does not sell and wanted to pick up an M2 or something like that.



This might describe me and in the end it looks like trade in is in the future without the right buyer.
There is nothing wrong with trading in a car, and some states give you an advantage to do so. In Idaho, for example, you only pay sales tax on the difference between the new car cost and the trade in. Of course, the dealers take advantage more often than not, knowing the fact that the car is to be traded in saves that person some money, and they would like to keep a lot of that for themselves :-)

There are other situations where, for example, the dealer is extremely hesitant to give any sort of price reduction on a new car that is in demand, but might in some circumstances make up for that a little by increasing the trade in value given.

I was negotiating with a guy in the SE for his lowish mileage 128i. Because it was not equipped the way that I would have wanted it, and the fact that shipping it to me would have been expensive, the car was not worth as much to me as it might have been worth to some other people. He had already talked with the dealer and it was pretty obvious that he was going to save $500 or so on his sales tax on his intended new vehicle if he traded it in. I would probably have bought the car had he reduced the price by $500 to $750 from his asking price, but I told him that in all honesty if it was me, I'd just trade it in, because a few hundred dollars doesn't really compensate for the clean sort of transaction your local dealer can do for you, when the comparison is having to deal with a long distance buyer, a trucking company, etc.

In general, I have found it easier to deal with a car dealer than with a PP when buying a used BMW, although I have yet to buy a CPO car or one sold by a BMW dealer.
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2015, 08:47 AM   #13
JimD
Brigadier General
JimD's Avatar
367
Rep
3,547
Posts

Drives: 128i convertible
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lexington, SC

iTrader: (0)

The issue with modifications is you don't know how they were done. I've purchased only new cars for many years now but I used to buy used out of necessity. When you do, you are subject to the previous owners maintenance history. I got to do a valve job on an old wagon with less than 60K miles, for instance. It went to near zero compression and wouldn't pass emissions. If I saw a BMW for sale with modifications, I would want to know how they were done. If by the owner, I would want to meet them. Some people do good work but there are the others.....

Since house examples have already been breached, we are pretty sure our house was heavily modified by the previous owner. A lot of the work is fine. But there are also electrical connections soldered together and taped and a floor joist cut to nothing so a drain could go right over it (no reason it couldn't have gone to the side) and telephone wires everywhere. Insulation installed improperly and missing in other walls. We kind of knew what we were getting into but there have been lots of surprises. The house is on a good lake lot, however, and everything is fixable.

So it depends some on your attitude towards having to correct other peoples work. On a car with mods, I would expect some of that which wouldn't make me want to pay more. I do things to my car, of course, and I don't think I hurt it's value but I wouldn't be surprised to have a potential buyer look at it differently.
__________________
128i Convertible, MT, Alpine White, Black Top, Taupe Leatherette, Walnut, Sport
Ordered 5/22/09, Completed 6/4/09, At Port 6/9/09, On the Georgia Highway 6/13/09, Ship Arrived Charleston 6/24/09 at 10pm, PCD 7/21/09
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2015, 08:58 AM   #14
mr.fabulous
Captain
mr.fabulous's Avatar
209
Rep
893
Posts

Drives: Women Crazy
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Florida Gulf Coast

iTrader: (0)

I'd have said I would never buy a used car that was anything but bone stock, as I have no way to know the capabilities of (s)he who did any mods. It's not the parts, it's the installer. But, funny thing, I bought my car CPO last year and I really do wonder how factory it is (the windows have been tinted, very well I might add, and I later found a Garmin power supply and wiring for a radar detector... hardly "mods", but clearly a PO with some interest in these things). One never can know with certainty the history of a used car, and so you take your chances.
__________________
2011 135i MSport 6MT AW/black, 72Kmiles, bone stock, moneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoney I LOVE THIS CAR
Appreciate 1
      08-05-2015, 02:53 PM   #15
edisapimp
Civil Rights Activist
United_States
115
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: E46 Sedan, E88 Vert
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Long Island

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.fabulous View Post
It's not the parts, it's the installer.
I also think it's the owner/driver, at least in my opinion. A modded car, as I see things, almost always means a car that's lived a harder than average life, and you've got to be prepared to deal with that - especially if you are considering something with higher miles (a longer life) than others. Most enthusiasts don't modify their cars unenthusiastically (not a word), and then drive them like granny going to church. These cars we are discussing, many of them are purpose-built, and their owners used them for their intended purpose. That said, I'd feel twice as confident purchasing a previously owned something purpose-built by the Germans versus another market.

I paid a premium for my car; the buyer's full asking price. When I showed up to see and test drive it, it was bone-stock with the exception of the short antenna and new tires. The owner had the car in his spotless garage, it was IMMACULATELY clean, he had about 50,000 different auto cleaning products in the garage, a spare set of wheels in covers, his lawn and home looked impeccably well-kept. This guy was fastidious in every aspect of his life, well-organized, and that inspired me with the confidence I needed to pull the trigger on the purchase.

I guess my point is that any used car, even one that's 100% stock can have a history of being beaten to shit and neglected by the previous owner (especially an Asian woman).
__________________

E88 Crimson Red Vert MSport 6MT - Listing your mods in your signature is lame.
BMS DCI/MHD E30 Flash!!/AA Sport FMIC/VRSF CP w Tial BOV/VRSF 3" DPs/550i clutch w SPEC SMFW/Apex EC-7s/Whiteline RSFB/E92 M3 FCAs/Bilstein B12 Pro Kit/VRSF inlets
Appreciate 0
      08-05-2015, 03:47 PM   #16
champignon
Disrupter
champignon's Avatar
United_States
1562
Rep
2,484
Posts

Drives: 1M;Z3M Cp;135is Vert, 996TT
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Idaho

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edisapimp View Post

I paid a premium for my car; the buyer's full asking price. When I showed up to see and test drive it, it was bone-stock with the exception of the short antenna and new tires. The owner had the car in his spotless garage, it was IMMACULATELY clean, he had about 50,000 different auto cleaning products in the garage, a spare set of wheels in covers, his lawn and home looked impeccably well-kept. This guy was fastidious in every aspect of his life, well-organized, and that inspired me with the confidence I needed to pull the trigger on the purchase.
Oh, you got taken in by that scam also. It's a fake enthusiast garage available for rental by the hour, by PP sellers who want to make a good impression.

There was a Porsche in there just before your BMW, and a Ferrari went through there just after you left.

:-)
Appreciate 0
      08-07-2015, 07:36 AM   #17
edisapimp
Civil Rights Activist
United_States
115
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: E46 Sedan, E88 Vert
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Long Island

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
Oh, you got taken in by that scam also. It's a fake enthusiast garage available for rental by the hour, by PP sellers who want to make a good impression.

There was a Porsche in there just before your BMW, and a Ferrari went through there just after you left.

:-)
LOL. I laughed.
__________________

E88 Crimson Red Vert MSport 6MT - Listing your mods in your signature is lame.
BMS DCI/MHD E30 Flash!!/AA Sport FMIC/VRSF CP w Tial BOV/VRSF 3" DPs/550i clutch w SPEC SMFW/Apex EC-7s/Whiteline RSFB/E92 M3 FCAs/Bilstein B12 Pro Kit/VRSF inlets
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:57 AM.




1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST