Some interesting software info

jcoo085 · 01-04-2006, 11:07 AM

I was at the dealer today to set up an appointment so they can fix a squeak from the drivers side, a 'pop' sound from the nav, and a couple of other small things (but these turned out to be normal and weren't really a big deal). Anyway, as soon as I mentioned a pop, the service advisor said they know about it and can fix it with a software update. I asked which one, and he said CIP 20 (which they only got a couple of days ago).

Anyway, I asked how they go about doing it and how long it takes etc. So he started to explain the process, which is quite interesting. He explained that they can update up to 4 cars at a time using a wireless system. When they do it like this, it only takes 4 hours or so (that means they could technically do 8 cars per day). The problem comes when a car 'crashes'/fries a module, or causes the update system to crash. If that happens, then they remove that vehicle from the wireless pool and update it with a cable. The downside is, if they use a cable, the car has to be left overnight because the cable system is much slower.

I just thought I would share that interesting little factoid. I'm booked in for next Wednesday (and will be getting a BMW loaner for however long it takes). When I get it back I'll post any noticable changes from CIP 20.

mds82 · 01-04-2006, 11:13 AM

i've never heard of a wires system being slower then wireless. At least every Ethernet system hard wire is always faster. strange...

vladinecko · 01-04-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mds82

i've never heard of a wires system being slower then wireless. At least every Ethernet system hard wire is always faster. strange...

not necessarily, if you're comparing something like 10-T wire and 108Mbps wireless, you're better off with wireless. it all depends on how they have it set up. maybe the wired system is still using parallel connectivity or just an old serial cable, in which case, it could take forever, depending on the amount of data they need to trasfer.

Broken1 · 01-04-2006, 11:27 AM

BMW over here (well JSN motors at any rate) used a wireless system to change setting on my car! It's a yellow box, that gets connected to a port in the footwell on the drivers side of the car- and they connect to it using the big DIS machine!

If you get noticible improvements from CIP 20 - I might consider having it done.

Compos Mentis · 01-04-2006, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mds82

i've never heard of a wires system being slower then wireless. At least every Ethernet system hard wire is always faster. strange...

Maybe it's RS-232. SLOWWWWWW.

Compos Mentis · 01-04-2006, 12:14 PM

BTW, a friend was telling me about his 2002 325I he bought in Germany. He had the same software issues with that car that we're having today. His was a problem where touching the air conditioning controls after shutting off the engine caused some electrical device to stay on, eventually running down the battery overnight. He took it back five times, each time the tech said that he probably left the lights on, or some such user error. They only charged the battery overnight each time. They finally found a work-around (don't touch the AC after shutting off the engine!) until a new software load was released and installed. FWIW.
(Luckily, I'm not having major problems. I am having major fun!)

LEDZEP · 01-04-2006, 02:25 PM

BMW has a long way to go with their software and related systems. They make a wonderful driving machine, but they are in the dark ages with electronics.

Compos Mentis · 01-04-2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEDZEP

BMW has a long way to go with their software and related systems. They make a wonderful driving machine, but they are in the dark ages with electronics.

Yeah, I knew that going into the purchase, but with the warranty, I figured they would get all the bugs out eventually.

That's also exactly what my friend was told by the dealer when he bought in Germany, in 2002, that you're going to have electrical problems, but we'll fix them.

It's the price of admission.

E90Fleet · 01-04-2006, 02:47 PM

Sounds like they havent completely transfered to PROGMAN yet then

PROGMAN gives them a dedicated update computer (SSS) that does 5 cars at a time, and many dealers get 2 SSS, so do 10 cars at a time.

Reason it takes longer if it crashes is because the moduel is then reprogrammed from scratch and not just updated. The cable is no slower than the wireless system.

The long time some upgrades is because many of the cars networks only run at 9.6k. The sound system can update at 22Mb/s

E90Fleet · 01-04-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEDZEP

BMW has a long way to go with their software and related systems. They make a wonderful driving machine, but they are in the dark ages with electronics.

The MOST system used by them for Idrive ect ect is seen as the leading system in the world. It was developed by the MOSTCOOPERATION which include BMW, Mercedes and Audi ( hence why merc and audi have symilar systems to Idrive )

The new X5 this year will have the fastest and most complex network in a car ever ( byteflight if I remember correctly )

Compos Mentis · 01-04-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E90Fleet

Sounds like they havent completely transfered to PROGMAN yet then

PROGMAN gives them a dedicated update computer (SSS) that does 5 cars at a time, and many dealers get 2 SSS, so do 10 cars at a time.

Reason it takes longer if it crashes is because the moduel is then reprogrammed from scratch and not just updated. The cable is no slower than the wireless system.

The long time some upgrades is because many of the cars networks only run at 9.6k. The sound system can update at 22Mb/s

9.6k? RS-232!!! Think of the cost savings to upgrade to a better bus.

poldim · 01-04-2006, 02:57 PM

Interesting stuff....

Got any more info on this ByteFlight stuff?

Compos Mentis · 01-04-2006, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E90Fleet

The MOST system used by them for Idrive ect ect is seen as the leading system in the world. It was developed by the MOSTCOOPERATION which include BMW, Mercedes and Audi ( hence why merc and audi have symilar systems to Idrive )

The new X5 this year will have the fastest and most complex network in a car ever ( byteflight if I remember correctly )

Maybe the 'dark ages' is the software and test department. These are bugs we're talking about. Good technology, so-so testing. It's not unique to BMW though.
I'm not bashing, but it's been true for years.

poldim · 01-04-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Compos Mentis

Maybe the 'dark ages' is the software and test department. These are bugs we're talking about. Good technology, so-so testing. It's not unique to BMW though.
I'm not bashing, but it's been true for years.

I also think they should be using more modern technologies. A lot of people do this by themselves, just look at what people have done on http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/

At the same time, I can understand that anything a company such a BMW does has to be to their standards and to their internal requirements....

Compos Mentis · 01-04-2006, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poldim

I also think they should be using more modern technologies. A lot of people do this by themselves, just look at what people have done on http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/

At the same time, I can understand that anything a company such a BMW does has to be to their standards and to their internal requirements....

It is amazing what people can set their minds to. Hacking a car computer. Could it then catch a virus? Over the wireless link......oh....my....god.....

E90Fleet · 01-04-2006, 03:13 PM

People also forget many of the systems are never designed or made by the car manufacturers.

Take the MP3 problem, it is a hardware processor problem on the system made by VDO that wouldnt allow MP3's to work properly with Nav with voice prompts.

Siemens and Continental tieves have also caused problems before, with BMW having to have no part in the problems

Compos Mentis · 01-04-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E90Fleet

People also forget many of the systems are never designed or made by the car manufacturers.

Take the MP3 problem, it is a hardware processor problem on the system made by VDO that wouldnt allow MP3's to work properly with Nav with voice prompts.

Siemens and Continental tieves have also caused problems before, with BMW having to have no part in the problems

COTS problems. It's always hard to know what you're actually buying, and you get stuck with the issues when you put it in your own products.

poldim · 01-04-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Compos Mentis

COTS problems. It's always hard to know what you're actually buying, and you get stuck with the issues when you put it in your own products.

Exactly why I think these manufacturers have to go from the ground up themselves...

06graphite · 01-05-2006, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poldim

Exactly why I think these manufacturers have to go from the ground up themselves...

the reason they don't is because it's way too expensive. Let someone else do all the research, develop a product, then OEM it out to several car manufacturers... It only makes sense.

poldim · 01-05-2006, 08:36 AM

I think this is how it works. BMW engineers/designers decide on what they feel should be in the car, say bluetooth. They then inquire and get information from several companies willing to work with them in developing and launching this technology in the BMW. Then then go through a bidding process, pick a company and work with that company on development. However, all of this takes time, lots of it. By the time they are done developing their product, Bluetooth v2.0 is developed.

I think this is or similar to the process the companies use in implementing technologies into the car, and the problem is that they take too much time to develop and modify for the automotive application and newer and better technologies come out...

Chalky White · 01-05-2006, 06:33 PM

how come it seems that japanese car computers just WORK. this is my first german car and while i love how it drives, i miss the reliability of japanese electronics.

poldim · 01-06-2006, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamajicky

how come it seems that japanese car computers just WORK. this is my first german car and while i love how it drives, i miss the reliability of japanese electronics.

Its ze Gerrrrmans....

They make cars, not computers. The Japanese make both, and do a good job at both.

01-04-2006, 11:07 AM	#1
jcoo085 Lieutenant 43 Rep 463 Posts Drives: E90 320d Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Stuttgart, Germany iTrader: (0) Garage List 2005 320d [0.00]	Some interesting software info I was at the dealer today to set up an appointment so they can fix a squeak from the drivers side, a 'pop' sound from the nav, and a couple of other small things (but these turned out to be normal and weren't really a big deal). Anyway, as soon as I mentioned a pop, the service advisor said they know about it and can fix it with a software update. I asked which one, and he said CIP 20 (which they only got a couple of days ago). Anyway, I asked how they go about doing it and how long it takes etc. So he started to explain the process, which is quite interesting. He explained that they can update up to 4 cars at a time using a wireless system. When they do it like this, it only takes 4 hours or so (that means they could technically do 8 cars per day). The problem comes when a car 'crashes'/fries a module, or causes the update system to crash. If that happens, then they remove that vehicle from the wireless pool and update it with a cable. The downside is, if they use a cable, the car has to be left overnight because the cable system is much slower. I just thought I would share that interesting little factoid. I'm booked in for next Wednesday (and will be getting a BMW loaner for however long it takes). When I get it back I'll post any noticable changes from CIP 20. __________________ E90 320d - Black Ext/Fluid Grey Int \| Steptronic \| Business Navigation \| PDC \| Sunroof \| Alarm Exterior Pictures \| Interior Pictures \| Video
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01-04-2006, 11:13 AM	#2
mds82 Major General 364 Rep 5,842 Posts Drives: 2006 325xi Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: South Central Connecticut iTrader: (40) Garage List 2006 325xi Snow Pics [0.00] 2006 BMW 325xi [0.00]	i've never heard of a wires system being slower then wireless. At least every Ethernet system hard wire is always faster. strange...
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01-04-2006, 11:27 AM	#4
Broken1 Addict 203 Rep 2,074 Posts Drives: 2024 X5 40i M-Sport Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ontario iTrader: (0)	BMW over here (well JSN motors at any rate) used a wireless system to change setting on my car! It's a yellow box, that gets connected to a port in the footwell on the drivers side of the car- and they connect to it using the big DIS machine! If you get noticible improvements from CIP 20 - I might consider having it done.
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01-04-2006, 12:14 PM	#6
Compos Mentis Second Lieutenant 6 Rep 230 Posts Drives: Arctic 330xi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seattle iTrader: (0)	BTW, a friend was telling me about his 2002 325I he bought in Germany. He had the same software issues with that car that we're having today. His was a problem where touching the air conditioning controls after shutting off the engine caused some electrical device to stay on, eventually running down the battery overnight. He took it back five times, each time the tech said that he probably left the lights on, or some such user error. They only charged the battery overnight each time. They finally found a work-around (don't touch the AC after shutting off the engine!) until a new software load was released and installed. FWIW. (Luckily, I'm not having major problems. I am having major fun!) __________________ *Compos Mentis* ----------------- 2006 330xi Arctic, black leather, aluminum. 18000 miles...
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01-04-2006, 02:25 PM	#7
LEDZEP Lieutenant General 417 Rep 12,276 Posts Drives: 2009 E70 & 2011 F25 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Area 51 iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 X3 35i M Sport [7.62] 2009 X5 M Sport [0.00] 2007 328xi E90 [0.00] 2006 325xiT E91 [0.00]	BMW has a long way to go with their software and related systems. They make a wonderful driving machine, but they are in the dark ages with electronics. __________________ I think it is bad luck to be superstitious
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01-04-2006, 02:47 PM	#9
E90Fleet Lieutenant General 1312 Rep 10,185 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Africa iTrader: (0)	Sounds like they havent completely transfered to PROGMAN yet then PROGMAN gives them a dedicated update computer (SSS) that does 5 cars at a time, and many dealers get 2 SSS, so do 10 cars at a time. Reason it takes longer if it crashes is because the moduel is then reprogrammed from scratch and not just updated. The cable is no slower than the wireless system. The long time some upgrades is because many of the cars networks only run at 9.6k. The sound system can update at 22Mb/s
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01-04-2006, 02:57 PM	#12
poldim Vroom Vrrooooom 300 Rep 3,146 Posts Drives: 330i Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bay Area, CA iTrader: (2) Garage List 2006 330i Sedan [0.00] 2003 GSX-R 600 [0.00]	Interesting stuff.... Got any more info on this ByteFlight stuff? __________________ -Dmitriy 06' BMW 330i & 03' Suzuki GSX-R600 SG \| Beige Dakota \| Poplar \|\| iDrive w/MP3 \| PP \| SP \| CWP \| PDC \| Comfort \| Shades \|\| 40% Tint \| Black Line Tail Lights \| Hardwired V1
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01-04-2006, 03:13 PM	#16
E90Fleet Lieutenant General 1312 Rep 10,185 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Africa iTrader: (0)	People also forget many of the systems are never designed or made by the car manufacturers. Take the MP3 problem, it is a hardware processor problem on the system made by VDO that wouldnt allow MP3's to work properly with Nav with voice prompts. Siemens and Continental tieves have also caused problems before, with BMW having to have no part in the problems
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01-05-2006, 08:36 AM	#20
poldim Vroom Vrrooooom 300 Rep 3,146 Posts Drives: 330i Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bay Area, CA iTrader: (2) Garage List 2006 330i Sedan [0.00] 2003 GSX-R 600 [0.00]	I think this is how it works. BMW engineers/designers decide on what they feel should be in the car, say bluetooth. They then inquire and get information from several companies willing to work with them in developing and launching this technology in the BMW. Then then go through a bidding process, pick a company and work with that company on development. However, all of this takes time, lots of it. By the time they are done developing their product, Bluetooth v2.0 is developed. I think this is or similar to the process the companies use in implementing technologies into the car, and the problem is that they take too much time to develop and modify for the automotive application and newer and better technologies come out... __________________ -Dmitriy 06' BMW 330i & 03' Suzuki GSX-R600 SG \| Beige Dakota \| Poplar \|\| iDrive w/MP3 \| PP \| SP \| CWP \| PDC \| Comfort \| Shades \|\| 40% Tint \| Black Line Tail Lights \| Hardwired V1
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01-05-2006, 06:33 PM	#21
Chalky White Private First Class 14 Rep 131 Posts Drives: 2006 e90, 325i Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: atlanta iTrader: (0) Garage List 2006 325i [0.00]	how come it seems that japanese car computers just WORK. this is my first german car and while i love how it drives, i miss the reliability of japanese electronics. __________________ 12/5/13 PCD Delivery of X3 3.5i, Alpine, Chestnut, Premium, Tech, Heated Seats, BMW Apps 2006 325i, Sparkling, Grey, Xenons, Premium, Heated, Comfort (SOLD) Last edited by Chalky White; 01-05-2006 at 09:44 PM..
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