Help needed with track alignment

[atv12]

There was a problem with the choice of wheel alignment settings for driving on the track ..

At first i went with the stock settings and everything was ok.. The car seemed a bit oversteering but controlled easily. The angles were:

front
camber -1'30''
total toe-in 0'00''

rear
camber -2'00''
total toe-in 0'20''

Here are 2 videos as my car went on these angles:

Then I put the Eibach Prokit springs (just to try, until i bought coilovers) and Ground control camber plates.. I decided to roll out on tha track with the following specs:

front
camber -3'00''
total toe-in 0'00''

rear
camber -2'00''
total toe-in 0'30''

I've gone crazy from the fact of what has happened with the car... tail flew ahead of the muzzle at the slightest trail bracking and at the slightest throttle after passing the apex.. I passed the turns on semi-slick federal fz-201 slower than on neova ad-08 with stock config...
Please, tell me what to do? Now I have decided to set rear toe to zero ... Tell me, will this help?

[atv12]

i had set rear total toe to zero angle - now the car is driven much better. i became able to steer using acceleration without a harsh disruption of the rear axle. but unfortunately i can't try my car in trail braking in the street conditions..

[pixelblue]

the extra camber up front is giving you more grip. consequently you lose grip on the other end. try reducing your front camber or increase rear toe-in or soften the rear coilover settings and or increase rear tire pressure. trail braking on streets?! then I saw you're from Moscow. makes sense now

[atv12]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

the extra camber up front is giving you more grip. consequently you lose grip on the other end. try reducing your front camber or increase rear toe-in or soften the rear coilover settings and or increase rear tire pressure. trail braking on streets?! then I saw you're from Moscow. makes sense now

increasing rear toe-in makes the car more oversteering.. why do you advise me to do it more in?
i haven't got coilovers yet, so i can't soften the rear axle. i wrote that i can't try trail braking because i'm using my car on street at the present moment and i have no oportunity to go on track for tests...

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by atv12

increasing rear toe-in makes the car more oversteering.. why do you advise me to do it more in?
i haven't got coilovers yet, so i can't soften the rear axle. i wrote that i can't try trail braking because i'm using my car on street at the present moment and i have no oportunity to go on track for tests...

No, increasing rear toe-in will reduce any propensity for the tail to wag (i.e., oversteer).

Rear tires pointed inward (toe-in) increases straight-line stability. Rear tires pointed outward (toe-out) makes it twitchier and easier to rotate.

Neil

[bdaddylo]

+1 on what Neil said about rear toe. I haven't been able to find the optimum rear camber setting for the stock suspension. When I increased the rear to over -2.0 degrees, I lost a lot of straight line traction.

[atv12]

you mean that my oversteering problem is not in toe but in front wheel camber? but how do you go on track with -3 on the front and with smth about -2, -2.5 on the rear? you make the front axle harder and the rear axle softer using coil's opportunity? can you give any suggestions to me, bacause i'm having the final stage of our club championship soon and i don't want to fail it...

[MDORPHN]

Uncertain whether your initial rear toe setting (described as "total toe 0'20") was toe-in or toe-out.

If it was toe-out, it would create a very hard to control car, with the back end stepping out in every turn. If it is toe-in, it's about right.

Every car I've driven has had some toe-in at the back.

As mentioned, more camber in front will reduce understeer and give you better turn-in. At the same time, however, you'll have to adjust your use of the throttle (and steering wheel), because reduced understeer means that the car will more readily go into oversteer.

Most advanced drivers like this type of set-up, but it does require greater experience and sensitivity to the vehicle dynamics.

Neil

[atv12]

sorry. i've changed my post. certainly it was toe-in...

[atv12]

what do you think about:
front
total toe-in 0°10`
camber -2°30`
rear
total toe-in 0°04`
camber -2°00`

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by atv12

what do you think about:
front
total toe-in 0°10`
camber -2°30`
rear
total toe-in 0°04`
camber -2°00`

Combination of toe and camber in front chews up tires. In any case, I'd go with 0 toe or a bit of toe-out in front (not toe-in).

My two cents...

Neil

[atv12]

but in rolling non drive wheels are trying to do toe-out, so 5' per wheel must not lead to tire chewing?

[atv12]

am i right with front camber, to make it less negative? it is already cold outside and the tarmac is going to be cold too.. would you set more toe-in on the rear? what about camber on the rear? it was mentioned somewhere in threads the autosport's 1m nring alignment..

[atv12]

you mean that my oversteering problem is not in toe but in front wheel camber? but how do you go on track with -3 on the front and with smth about -2, -2.5 on the rear? you make the front axle harder and the rear axle softer using coil's opportunity? can you give any suggestions to me, bacause i'm having the final stage of our club championship soon and i don't want to fail it...

[Hobbe]

Add more rubber to the rear, and lower the rear tire pressure if you want to increase the grip.

I have max camber with the stock suspension (no camber plates).
In my case around -1.5 both front and rear.
0.1 toe-out front and 0.1 toe-in rear.
265/18 front tires and 285/18 rear tires (Toyo 888).

Not the perfect set-up, but the set-up I started this season with.
No use spending money on coilovers until I have tried the stock suspension out thoroughly IMHO.
The car is still a bit tail happy when driving aggressively on the track, but with soft hands it works well.

An interesting thread.
I'll keep on eye on this thread to see if more valuable input will come from people who actually drive their 1M on the track.
Good set-up input is worth more than lots of aftermarket products

[atv12]

Originally Posted by Hobbe

Add more rubber to the rear, and lower the rear tire pressure if you want to increase the grip.

I have max camber with the stock suspension (no camber plates).
In my case around -1.5 both front and rear.
0.1 toe-out front and 0.1 toe-in rear.
265/18 front tires and 285/18 rear tires (Toyo 888).

Not the perfect set-up, but the set-up I started this season with.
No use spending money on coilovers until I have tried the stock suspension out thoroughly IMHO.
The car is still a bit tail happy when driving aggressively on the track, but with soft hands it works well.

An interesting thread.
I'll keep on eye on this thread to see if more valuable input will come from people who actually drive their 1M on the track.
Good set-up input is worth more than lots of aftermarket products

i absolutely agree..
when you write 1.50 and 0.1 what do you mean? camber is minus 1 degree and 50 minutes and toe is 10 minutes in?
i had my final track race this season and i understood that all my troubles came from that eibach springs.. they are too stiff on the rear and too soft on the front and giving more camber on the front i made the car too much oversteering.. now i'm looking for coilovers. but this will be my next thread.. thanks a lot to all for suggests..