135i Value vs. 128i

[gbent]

Originally Posted by darknightohio

You have to remember that a 6-pot Brembo kit will retail at 3-4k, BMW could have just put some off the shelf brakes on the 135i and had the price set at 32k...but its all about performance with the 135i.

I think you're way out of line on the $3-4K thinking for the brakes.

I've said this before, these brakes are not even close to what you get in an aftermarket Brembo brake kit. Look at the pictures on the BMW web site. These are just plain old one piece cast iron rotors, with a slightly larger caliper/pad set up.

I'd say this set up might be worth $500-$600 tops. Remember, BMW had to put brakes on the car anyway, & this set up is really not that much of an upgrade from the 128i brakes IMHO.

[Dave]

hmmmm i am seriously in a rut here... i think a base 128i could be a lot more fun... have 7k left over.... 1.5k for rims...1.5k for brakes....and 1k for body kit...and 2k for auto and xenons (for the wife)=6k....and 1k for power mods = 7k

[FTD]

Originally Posted by 1ster

So now we know: the 135i costs $6,300 more than the 128i. That money buys you 70hp, a sport suspension, the M body kit, the Brembo brakes, 18" wheels, and Xenon headlights.

For the performance enthusiast buyer, that is a freakin' steal. I know some of those options are available on the 128i, but you'll pay extra for them.

I think what we've really learned today is that BMW is serious about targeting the high end sport compact market with the 135i. This pricing is almost exactly on top of the Evo and STI.

I think these are two separate discussions.

First:
I agree that I would rather buy the 135 over the 128. For me that decision is based on the performance potential of the 135 being worth extra cost. But it isn't because $6300 isn't much money.

Second thought:
34,900 + dest for the 135i
33,495 + dest for the STI

It works out to $1500 after destination. That is within 4% at MSRP. But the STI needs zero options. On the 135 you must add $1000 for the "sport package". That takes the differential to $2500 or over 7%.

I know many people on this forum are acting like $2500 or even $6000 is not a big deal, but believe me I put a lot of thought into something before spending $2500.

Just my $.02

[1ster]

Originally Posted by FTD

33,495 + dest for the STI

Has Subaru confirmed that pricing for the new STI? Not trying to argue, I just hadn't seen that anywhere before...

[atr_hugo]

Nice first post - welcome FTD!!

[1ster]

Originally Posted by FTD

I think these are two separate discussions.

First:
I agree that I would rather buy the 135 over the 128. For me that decision is based on the performance potential of the 135 being worth extra cost. But it isn't because $6300 isn't much money.

Second thought:
34,900 + dest for the 135i
33,495 + dest for the STI

It works out to $1500 after destination. That is within 4% at MSRP. But the STI needs zero options. On the 135 you must add $1000 for the "sport package". That takes the differential to $2500 or over 7%.

I know many people on this forum are acting like $2500 or even $6000 is not a big deal, but believe me I put a lot of thought into something before spending $2500.

Just my $.02

Actually, Suburu USA just announced pricing for the new STI.

It starts at $34,995, meaning it's a whopping $680 cheaper than the 135i, a less than 2% differential.

Add the Sport Pack to the Bimmer and your difference is $1,680, a less than 5% increase over the Scooby.

I'm not saying $1,680 is chump change, but if you're willing to pay $35,000 for a new car, it hardly seems like a deal breaker.

[Dunbar]

I think the 135 at $40-42k typically optioned isn't going to sell well in the US market. Which is good because, at or below invoice price, the cost is much more reasonable.

The 128 should sell well with the masses simply because it fits into that "around $30k" entry level luxery segment (and I already see plenty of 328 sedans driving around.)

[Sephiroth]

One key factor in BMWs favor is the Euro Delivery option:

The STI features a fairly advanced AWD system incl. multiple LSDs electronic and mechanical, prety nice seats, more utility/space with 5 door design, and only options being the BBS wheels and nav.

The 135i has the better brakes (6 piston vs 4 piston on STI) with brake drying ability, probably slightly better gas mileage, better quality interior, more performance potential, and maybe competitive pricing with Euro delivery, and superior warranty.

Looks wise, i think its no contest that the 135i is better, especially with the terra interior option and the metallic paint choices (Sedona is to die for!).

I can see how the 135i is a better choice than the STI.

[cuban135i]

Originally Posted by 1ster

Actually, Suburu USA just announced pricing for the new STI.

It starts at $34,995, meaning it's a whopping $680 cheaper than the 135i, a less than 2% differential.

Wow, any reason why the upped the price so much? Any power increases? I think the new body does not deserve that increase, but rather a price cut...
Sorry if this is a little OT, but it just caught my eye.

[Dunbar]

Who in their right mind cross shops a 135 and an Sti/Evo? The only similiarity (other than price) is the turbocharged engines with mondo upgrade potential. The Evo/Sti are raw, gritty, highly strung performance cars. The 135 is a GT in comparison, with a luxurious and quiet interior, with a relatively smooth ride. The type of person that would be happy in one probably hates the other.

[FTD]

Good point I should have specified. I was referring to the 2007 STI pricing. I did not know the 2008 STI pricing when I posted, thanks for the update.

If that is the case then they are even closer than either of us stated:

2008 135 $34,900 + $775 dest = $35,675
2008 STI $34,995 + $645 dest = $35,640

So the "base costs" are almost identical. The $1000 sport package would raise the BMW less than 3% over the STI.

[1ster]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Who in their right mind cross shops a 135 and an Sti/Evo?

*raises hand*

[FTD]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

Nice first post - welcome FTD!!

Thanks atr_hugo,

It is great to be here! I have been checking for updates on occation, but couldn't help but add to the discussion.

Take care!

[the2doors]

Don't forget that 6,300 is only the price difference between the two models, you'll also pay more for insurance, and gas. For the typical driver not willing to risk their license, it's hard to take full advantage of the extra power on US streets, especially in the Tri state area where I seldom see open stretches of road with all the traffic. For the same reason, the brakes and body kit don't offer me much additional value. My car produces enough brake dust as it is, so the brembo's could actually bother me. The Zenons are nice but not necessary. In addition, the light weight engine in the 128 should make the car more tossable then the 135. I think both cars are a screaming deal and should sell well, but lets not bash the 128.

[1ster]

Originally Posted by the2doors

Don't forget that 6,300 is only the price difference between the two models, you'll also pay more for insurance, and gas. For the typical driver not willing to risk their license, it's hard to take full advantage of the extra power on US streets, especially in the Tri state area where I seldom see open stretches of road with all the traffic. For the same reason, the brakes and body kit don't offer me much additional value. My car produces enough brake dust as it is, so the brembo's could actually bother me. The Zenons are nice but not necessary. In addition, the light weight engine in the 128 should the car more tossable then the 135. I think both cars are a screaming deal and should sell well, but lets not bash the 128.

You make a good argument. For people who have access to twisty roads, or who plan on taking their car to the occasional track day, the 135i is worth the extra cost. But the 128i is still a damn fine automobile worth serious consideration.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Who in their right mind cross shops a 135 and an Sti/Evo? The only similiarity (other than price) is the turbocharged engines with mondo upgrade potential. The Evo/Sti are raw, gritty, highly strung performance cars. The 135 is a GT in comparison, with a luxurious and quiet interior, with a relatively smooth ride. The type of person that would be happy in one probably hates the other.

Not quite. I don't know about the Evo, it still looks very economy to me, but the STI is not as raw or gritty as it used to be. There is more body roll and more sound insulation than ever before if major mag reviews and tuners are to be believed. They say it has softened quite a bit, even Subaru's own engineers admitted that the 04-07 was too stiff for the current market.

It seems as though Subaru has alienated the hardcore guys while not fully enticing the people looking for a GT, thanks in part to the 135.

[1ster]

Originally Posted by 1love

It seems as though Subaru has alienated the hardcore guys while not fully enticing the people looking for a GT, thanks in part to the 135.

I must be that one guy who Subaru is successfully targeting with the new STI. The old one was too raw for my taste, but the new one promises to be spot-on. The only reason I'm cross-shopping the new STI with the 135i is because the Subaru is more refined this time.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by 1ster

I must be that one guy who Subaru is successfully targeting with the new STI. The old one was too raw for my taste, but the new one promises to be spot-on. The only reason I'm cross-shopping the new STI with the 135i is because the Subaru is more refined this time.

Considering the price is about the same, what about the STI makes it competitive with the 135? It seems that from a driver's perspective the BMW is just a better car. You have RWD vs. AWD, 6cyl vs. 4cyl, the gearbox and brakes are bound to be better in the bimmer (not to metion 4dr hatch vs 2dr coupe). I can see if the STI were $5k cheaper it may be appealing.

[1ster]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

what about the STI makes it competitive with the 135?

For starters, the STI has a much more sophisticated drivetrain than the 135i, which lacks even a mechanical LSD. It also weighs the same as the 135i, despite having two more doors, AWD, and a practical hatchback design.

You can't assume the BMW's brakes are better just because they're 6-pot vs 4-pot. Both systems were designed by Brembo, and Subaru has a sterling track record of putting excellent brakes on the STI.

The BMW is likely to be faster in a straight line -- and especially above 100mph -- than the Subaru because that biturbo is such a torque monster, but I wouldn't count on the 135i being faster than the STI around a track because the Scooby's chassis will pull it through corners faster than the understeery, wheelspinny 135i.

I believe both cars represent excellent performance bargains, and that both are worth serious consideration by the enthusiast with $35,000 to spend.

[FTD]

Originally Posted by 1ster

I believe both cars represent excellent performance bargains, and that both are worth serious consideration by the enthusiast with $35,000 to spend.

Agreed.

As with most performance car decisions, "performance" and "value" are in the eye of the beholder. Anyone who believes that these are not comparable "performance" vehicles is deceived. They may not be comparable "luxury" vehicles, but that isn't what I am basing my decision on.

Praise the Lord everyone has the opportunity to make up their own mind. It is great to have options!

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Considering the price is about the same, what about the STI makes it competitive with the 135? It seems that from a driver's perspective the BMW is just a better car. You have RWD vs. AWD, 6cyl vs. 4cyl, the gearbox and brakes are bound to be better in the bimmer (not to metion 4dr hatch vs 2dr coupe). I can see if the STI were $5k cheaper it may be appealing.

I also would not discount the STI gearbox. Sure Subaru clutches are not exactly traffic jam friendly, but the 6-spd in the STI is extremely robust and precise.

[Sephiroth]

From just looking at a spec sheet i don't think the STI is worth the $35k MSRP, but a test drive can change that real quick.