1M Values

[nachob]

Originally Posted by JP-1M

IMHO the analogy doesn't work. What you did with your wine collection makes absolute sense if the aim is enjoyment over status. There is an amazing array of $50/bottle wine that would offer at least 95% of the enjoyment that you could get out of a $500/bottle. This does not correlate to the 1M and cars in general. I posit that there is no $10,000 car that could offer anything close to the balanced performance, fun, comfort, and reliability of our (theortetical) $100,000 1M.

Don't cage your 1M in this future scenario. Daily drive it. The relatively negligible depreciation will be offset by the joy it brings you. Just make sure to insure it properly.

I bought a ZHP to daily drive but loved it so I put a lot of money into it to make it really nice. I got rear ended by a kid and their insurance company offered me half of what my ZHP is worth. It was an awful experience and it does make me a little more nervous driving my 1M now. Even if properly insured and I got my money back it is still a special hard to replace car. I do find myself wishing it wasn't so special in my mind so I wouldn't sweat it so much. Sometimes the wife's new GTI is more fun to drive in some situations because it's easy to replace and a fun car. I think Champignons has a point here. Maybe not for everyone but a point nonetheless.

[Mr. Wilson]

I don't DD my 1M for multiple reasons but one of them is fear of getting messed up. In fact I only drive it usually on early Saturday or Sunday mornings. As the car continues to appreciate in the future this will become more of a factor. It is a shame but I can only hope that some of you don't live in a place with such CRAPPY drivers and that you get to experience the car fully. Fact of the matter is even if I DD the car I would be sitting in traffic or at a light more often then none. I figure she is better sitting in my garage then at a light.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by JP-1M

IMHO the analogy doesn't work. What you did with your wine collection makes absolute sense if the aim is enjoyment over status. There is an amazing array of $50/bottle wine that would offer at least 95% of the enjoyment that you could get out of a $500/bottle. This does not correlate to the 1M and cars in general. I posit that there is no $10,000 car that could offer anything close to the balanced performance, fun, comfort, and reliability of our (theortetical) $100,000 1M.

Don't cage your 1M in this future scenario. Daily drive it. The relatively negligible depreciation will be offset by the joy it brings you. Just make sure to insure it properly.

Well, I disagree with your wine analogy! There are essentially zero $50 bottles of wine that approach the quality and enjoyment of a $500 bottle, if the $500 bottle is really good and merits its price. I don't drink those $500 bottles, but I have tasted some and in a couple of instances done more than taste them. 10:1 in pricing does not equate to 95/100 quality.

I drink a lot of $50 bottles of wine, almost all of which are French, and they are good, but certainly not exceptional. When you get to the $70 to $100 wines, then yes, you can get maybe 95% of what you get for $500, especially if you age them for a long time, in a good cellar. Saturday night I had a couple over who have been friends for 30 years. We had a 1995 Chateau Beaucastel Chateauneuf-du-Pape which I have cellared since infancy. God knows what it would cost today, however at purchase it was not particularly expensive. It was truly memorable.

I'm not sure I'd sell the 1M if it became worth $100K, but I certainly would be a lot more careful where and when I drove it, and especially where I parked it. Now, I just use it like any other car.

[nachob]

I can't help but feel a little funny about the turn the thread has taken. Just thinking about my own neurosis worrying about my 1M...bottles of wine, to daily drive or not to daily drive. I think the important thing is that we chose something that was special to us in 2011 when the M3 snobs were saying our car wasn't not a real M car and the 135i snobs were saying we were idiots for spending $6k more for an M badge when all they had to do was get a tune to be faster. Some of us were adamant we didn't want nav and power seats and the salesmen were telling us we were idiots because a BMW should be loaded. Yet we wanted something different than what conventional wisdom dictated. We bought it because we loved it and now we have been rewarded for being different. In some respect we all share that here and we are lucky for it. Yes it does have its burdens and stresses but let's enjoy our problems with high values....it could be worse.

So here is a toast to all the pyrats out there. Let's enjoy the spoils!

[buddalun]

Originally Posted by nachob

So here is a toast to all the pyrats out there. Let's enjoy the spoils!

Now you're talkin'!

[1&done]

Originally Posted by buddalun

Now you're talkin'!

Dilly Dilly

[dkat]

I would like to weigh in on this. I recently purchased a no stories, sub 10K 1M with Nav.& Con. pkge. in the low 60's. I believe I paid on the lower end of fair market value for the car. The car was purchased as a sunny day weekend driver. Now, 6 years after production has ended, I believe that the 1M is now in the transition from everyday driver to a car of interest for enthusiast/collectors.
The 1M is a low production, highly regarded car and I think values will continue to rise. $100,000 is not out of the question for low mileage car within the next 5-7 years unless there is a complete economic meltdown. The 1M is unlike almost every other BMW built in the last 20 years save for the Z8 due in part to the bespoke body and low production numbers worldwide. Low production will = high value sooner or later. I am fortunate to have found this car and plan on keeping it for quite a while. There are not many late model cars you can purchase and not expect depreciation and quite possibly realize appreciation. Did I buy it as an investment? The right half of my brain says yes. The left half says drive it like you stole it.

[FIRSTM]

I concur, drive it like you stole it,
what good is it in 5 to 10 yrs if it appreciate, when you don't get to enjoy it for that time period while paying insurance for it. Make no sense for an enthusiast, no to offend anyone that is keeping this for collectors item. Just my op

[edwardio]

A 1m with 92k miles just sold for £39k...details on 1muk facebook page...

[champignon]

Somewhat tangential to this discussion, in the two+ years I have owned my 1M, it has been noticed only a couple of times by random people, none of whom had any idea what it was. I think the somewhat outrageous VO color was a large part of why these people came up to me (once at a gas station and once in a parking lot). BMW has been recycling this color (or very similar ones) on unremarkable cars lately, which will diminish the color-based interest in the future.

A couple of days ago someone admired my 135i Coupe, and wanted to know how powerful it was (~320HP with the PPK flash).

Last year someone followed me into a Trader Joes to compliment me and ask about my 2000 Z3M Coupe; he's the only person (other than a laughable experience with my Golf R) to ever approach me about a car who knew what the car actually was.

Very frequently, too frequently, when I drive my 2003 Porsche 996 TT, it gets noticed, I think probably because of the aftermarket GT2 spoiler that the previous owner installed on it. This has started to make me cautious about where and when I park it.

Bottom line, other than for the body color, hardly anyone out there has a clue what these cars are when they see them, only the owners and wannabe owners. That can be both a plus and a minus to collectability. Those looking for status should probably buy something else. Those looking for discretion might be attracted to it, especially if they get one in the white or black colors.

[vasmir]

Still daily driving at the "worth 60k" point, though I take some common sense precautions. Always park in a corner/end spot, take the wife's X3 when we drive into the city, no one washes the car but me, etc.

I think in about 2 years I'll buy an electric car for the more mundane commutes over bad/pothole roads and relegate the 1M for the "nice drives."

A more interesting question is the "how much would the 1M have to be worth for me to consider selling?"
It's a lot.

[Em/1]

Originally Posted by champignon

Well, I disagree with your wine analogy! There are essentially zero $50 bottles of wine that approach the quality and enjoyment of a $500 bottle, if the $500 bottle is really good and merits its price. I don't drink those $500 bottles, but I have tasted some and in a couple of instances done more than taste them. 10:1 in pricing does not equate to 95/100 quality.

I drink a lot of $50 bottles of wine, almost all of which are French, and they are good, but certainly not exceptional. When you get to the $70 to $100 wines, then yes, you can get maybe 95% of what you get for $500, especially if you age them for a long time, in a good cellar. Saturday night I had a couple over who have been friends for 30 years. We had a 1995 Chateau Beaucastel Chateauneuf-du-Pape which I have cellared since infancy. God knows what it would cost today, however at purchase it was not particularly expensive. It was truly memorable.

I'm not sure I'd sell the 1M if it became worth $100K, but I certainly would be a lot more careful where and when I drove it, and especially where I parked it. Now, I just use it like any other car.

The '95 still available in France for about $80, Binny's near me for $150; the 95% conceit is ridiculously subjective; can we all just agree that most things suffer from diminishing returns as regards quality as the price rises?

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Em/1

The '95 still available in France for about $80, Binny's near me for $150; the 95% conceit is ridiculously subjective; can we all just agree that most things suffer from diminishing returns as regards quality as the price rises?

Boredom alert!!! Irrelevant to the thread as a whole!! You have been warned!!!

I would be shocked if you could buy a 1995 Beaucastel for $80 in France. Could you please post some substantiation of this? Is it more than 1 or 2 bottles and are you sure you can actually buy it?

I've made a bit of a study of what French wine costs in France compared to what it costs here in the USA, generally confined to recent vintages since that is what you see for sale most of the time. I spend 6 weeks in France every year, 3 in the spring and 3 in the fall, primarily in Burgundy now but I have traveled quite a bit outside of this region in the past.

Almost all Burgundies cost considerably more in the USA than they do in France. This is perhaps not surprising when one considers that Burgundy vineyards are cut up into small ownership stakes in most cases, and distribution at that level isn't very efficient. When one gets to the better known, larger production estates, especially in the Rhone Valley and Bordeaux, the situation is often reversed, and you can often find wines such as Beaucastel or many well known Bordeaux, at lower prices in the USA than in France, at least what you find out of region within France.

Who exactly is selling any quantity of 1995 Ch. Beaucastel in France for $80? If you were to find that wine in a restaurant, even in France, you would be looking well north of 200 Euros.

And in the US, you can find a quantity of 1995 Ch. Beaucastel for sale? K&L, the biggest high end US wine retailer as far as I know, has 7 bottles, and the price is surprisingly low at $119, although 6/7 are "bin soiled." One has no idea of the provenance, e.g. where it came from or how it was stored. You can know for 100% certainty that it did not come directly from the producer or they would have labeled it as such in their description, as "ex-cellars," which from a practical standpoint means these could have lived next to the furnace in somebody's house for the last 20 years before they resold it and it ended up there. Suggestion; never buy 20 year old wine that you don't know where it lived during this time. Not worth the risk.

1995 was a very good vintage in CDP, however not one of the heralded ones. Perhaps I should have used another vintage of the same era which has attracted more collector attention, in which case the price would be easily $200 or more.

And yes, you get less with each increment over $1 as you go up the quality scale with anything. On that we are agreed!

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by analogue

I think the seller was somewhat lucky that two people got into a bidding war over this car between $48k and the close at $64k.

It was a clean no-nav example, but it had 3 prior owners and average mileage for a 1M.

Wow - sold my 2 owner pristine (full xpel) 16k/mile example for 52k only a few years ago!

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Roundown

Wow - sold my 2 owner pristine (full xpel) 16k/mile example for 52k only a few years ago!

It's certainly tempting to talk about the value of a (supposedly) appreciating unusual car as though it is a liquid asset and hence easily salable.

The reality is that tastes change rather rapidly, as does the economy, plus buying a used car at long distance is a very risky proposition, the latter being well-known among potential buyers of this sort of vehicle. Transaction costs on selling a car, such as licensing fees/sales taxes, and vehicle transport, can be rather high.

Someone could really want your car and be willing to pay a huge sum for it, however even a 1000 miles of distance between buyer and seller can eliminate the possibility of doing the transaction.

Bottom line, enjoy your car, if you can get your money or most of your money out of it when it comes time to unload it, consider yourself very fortunate!

[blackmist222777]

Originally Posted by champignon

It's certainly tempting to talk about the value of a (supposedly) appreciating unusual car as though it is a liquid asset and hence easily salable.

The reality is that tastes change rather rapidly, as does the economy, plus buying a used car at long distance is a very risky proposition, the latter being well-known among potential buyers of this sort of vehicle. Transaction costs on selling a car, such as licensing fees/sales taxes, and vehicle transport, can be rather high.

Someone could really want your car and be willing to pay a huge sum for it, however even a 1000 miles of distance between buyer and seller can eliminate the possibility of doing the transaction.

Bottom line, enjoy your car, if you can get your money or most of your money out of it when it comes time to unload it, consider yourself very fortunate!

I know you are trying to keep heads out of clouds... however, I do think its interesting that almost every older Porsche is worth waaay more than it was purchased for. Of course that is a blanket statement for simplicity sake but I think that the 1M is worth more than it cost new. I think it will continue to rise. Why? because of the unique experience it provides. being a manual with very little computer interruption and in modern times is rare. However I will say this... I want people to drive their cars. why? because too many 1M owners dont drive their cars in preparation of values increasing. that is a key difference in say the E30 M3's jump in value. those cars were almost always driven. and the few with little to no miles are really worth $$$$$. BUT all us 1Mers are just holding them precious which means that they will take longer to get to big values (and never quite the height of the E30 Mers) because there will be too many in excellent condition with low miles. so.... people, please drive your cars so mine can be worth something someday

[champignon]

Originally Posted by blackmist222777

I know you are trying to keep heads out of clouds... however, I do think its interesting that almost every older Porsche is worth waaay more than it was purchased for. Of course that is a blanket statement for simplicity sake but I think that the 1M is worth more than it cost new. I think it will continue to rise. Why? because of the unique experience it provides. being a manual with very little computer interruption and in modern times is rare. However I will say this... I want people to drive their cars. why? because too many 1M owners dont drive their cars in preparation of values increasing. that is a key difference in say the E30 M3's jump in value. those cars were almost always driven. and the few with little to no miles are really worth $$$$$. BUT all us 1Mers are just holding them precious which means that they will take longer to get to big values (and never quite the height of the E30 Mers) because there will be too many in excellent condition with low miles. so.... people, please drive your cars so mine can be worth something someday

A lot of the cars (including mine) aren't being driven much because they were never purchased by the (current) owners to be DD vehicles. I never expected to put more than maybe 2000 miles/year on it, and I haven't over my period of ownership. Once a car gets to be 5 years old, especially if it is one that is expensive to maintain out of warranty, there are really only 2 viable approaches to it, either (1), drive it hard until the wheels fall off, or, (2), treat it like a garage queen and only drive it for fun.

In the case of #1, you are basically accepting a high cost of maintenance, but since there isn't going to be much further depreciation, there is an offset. In the case of #2, it's a collectible toy that you use as such. People who bought the 1M to own it under scenario #2, are not going to use it as a DD vehicle, no matter what.

[blackmist222777]

Originally Posted by champignon

A lot of the cars (including mine) aren't being driven much because they were never purchased by the (current) owners to be DD vehicles. I never expected to put more than maybe 2000 miles/year on it, and I haven't over my period of ownership. Once a car gets to be 5 years old, especially if it is one that is expensive to maintain out of warranty, there are really only 2 viable approaches to it, either (1), drive it hard until the wheels fall off, or, (2), treat it like a garage queen and only drive it for fun.

In the case of #1, you are basically accepting a high cost of maintenance, but since there isn't going to be much further depreciation, there is an offset. In the case of #2, it's a collectible toy that you use as such. People who bought the 1M to own it under scenario #2, are not going to use it as a DD vehicle, no matter what.

I dont think I was making an argument for or against the philosophy of ownership. I am just stating the facts. The fact is, many cars have low miles for the year. many cars are expected to go up in value faster than others. but all of this doesnt really matter... At the end of the day, a car is only worth what someone will pay for it.

I will say this... We had a 2013 BMW 328i. my wife's car. she loooooved it. however with a baby on the way we needed something bigger. It was an eye opening experience to see the value drop through the floor on that car. i was underwater on it and just needed to suck it up. However with cars like the 1M dont put you in that same position. you can always find someone that will consider that car simply because of the low build numbers. the 328i is a great car but when BMW makes a million of them, it drives huge depreciation. darn supply and demand!

[dkat]

Sports Car Market magazine (auction results) has a 1M profile article in the upcoming January issue.
SCM valuation is $61,750 for 1M. Not sure what mileage this is based upon.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by dkat

Sports Car Market magazine (auction results) has a 1M profile article in the upcoming January issue.
SCM valuation is $61,750 for 1M. Not sure what mileage this is based upon.

My current mileage plus ten thousand?

:-)

[josephvman]

I had a conversation today with the dealer who I sold my 1-owner 46k VO 1M to back in May. My car needed brakes and tires, but was in otherwise very good condition with no stories, and I traded it for almost mid $40's. He serviced it, did brakes and tires, and had it on the market for around two weeks in the low $50's. I think he saw where the market was headed and wholesaled it to another dealer, who still has the car for sale. He told me there are a fair number of similar cars that have been on the market for many months in the $50k range with no takers, and that if he was going to buy my car today wholesale it would be hard pressed to get to $40k. He thinks cars like mine just don't retail for more than mid $40's today, and based on what I see I think he's spot on. I'm sure there's a decent bump for a sub-30k car, and of course the cars with extremely low miles can and will sell for some crazy figures.

[T1M]

You're more fortunate in the US than us in Australia. You have what, 749 brought in, and BMW Australia saw $ signs and brought in 300! Right now, there's at least 19 for sale. Any colour you want, low mileage, take your pic.

We have the same thing happening here. Many rather precious owners hoping to speculate a few thousand on them garaging them and hoping against hope the price suddenly rises. They probably don't know any real vehicle speculators, the kind that buy real cult cars worth huge sums at the right time then flip them months/years later making hundreds of thousands. Making 15K on a comparatively cheap 1M is pocket change for anyone truly well off.

Cars that depreciate slowly are the best to drive lots - regardless of the number on the odometer, it will always be what it is, and someone will want to buy it for the right price. My thoughts are mod them (tastefully, not to the point of ruin), drive them, enjoy them and when you sell, and you will, life's too short to put all your eggs in the 1M basket), you'll have had a great time and lost less than you would have with almost any other model of car.