BMW M1 -- Baby M 1-series car is coming!

[amdmaxx]

3.2 doesnt pass emissions any more.
3.2 is not efficient
3.2 drinks gas like there is no tomorrow
3.2 lacks low end torque.
3.2 would require millions in crash testing to be certified in 1xx cars..
3.2 was a great engine for it's time. But technology moves (would you want a 10 years old computer?)
Case closed.

[SlicktopTTZ]

Take the n55, give it a bigger turbo, make it rev to 8500rpm, run 14psi, and BAM, instant 500hp M1!

[twenzel]

.

[cagekicker]

can't wait to see it.

[fourtailpipes]

why would the M1 supercar concept have toyos!?

[larryn]

Originally Posted by twenzel

Im so tired of this type of blatant ignorance. There is no market for you type of people. Its simple, even if M division were to come up with a turbo motor with Vanos valve technology and variable vane turbos that can eliminate all traces of turbo lag, as well as provide more low end torque to appease your wishes to "play with the throttle to balance the car" YOU STILL would have complaints about it not being a real M car. The ONLY solution for you type of morons is to go find a time machine and buy an M car from the era you so desire.

Get over it! times change and so does technology. And guess what, it makes cars better.

Further, I'm willing to bet you never even put a car in a steady controlled drift! I can control my 135i with stock E-diff and laggy turbos to boot in a very large radius drift with no problems. I'd say it would be way easier with a proper differential, but the turbo lag is non issue.

:

Go search some of Advevo's older posts, including his videos, and post your apology any time afterwards. He also was one of the first to test drive a 135i in Germany, and take a drifting video of it for us.

What have you done? Yeah, thought so.

There are more intelligent ways of arguing a point than naming somebody ignorant, calling them a moron, and trying to make them look like a dolt. In this case, if you knew Advevo's history here, you would only be making yourself look like one.

[dbtheo]

Originally Posted by larryn

Go search some of Advevo's older posts, including his videos, and post your apology any time afterwards. He also was one of the first to test drive a 135i in Germany, and take a drifting video of it for us.

What have you done? Yeah, thought so.

There are more intelligent ways of arguing a point than naming somebody ignorant, calling them a moron, and trying to make them look like a dolt. In this case, if you knew Advevo's history here, you would only be making yourself look like one.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by twenzel

I think you just made him crawl back under the rock.

I'm not crawling under any rock, I just don't have time to argue with people who believe you can toss on a few parts to any vehicle and turn it into some kind of world beater.

Happens on every kind of car forum, if the car is slower and turbocharged then the defenders will just scream "tune", if the car in comparison doesn't handle as well they'll scream "coilovers", if all else fails they'll mention things like interior and cost.

Evo guys think nothing can possibly beat an Evo because they can just boost it to 9999 HP and omg it has AWD and legendary Evo handling so you can't touch it! The N54 crowd has M penis envy so pretty much every argument ends with oh yeah how about JB3 + coilovers!!1!111!. The M guys are insecure and any argument ends in them spouting off about the intangible goodness of M products and it's high revs or the highway.

These are just gross generalizations but there are examples of this happening on every car forum from Fiat to Ferrari.

If merely adding coilovers and some of the forged aluminum suspension pieces to a 1er would get you to the dynamic level of an M3 then M GmbH should probably look into firing quite a few engineers. I assure you, being an engineer in a different market, there is no way they would be allowed by their management to make such elaborate changes if the only thing they needed to do to beat their competition was the equivalent of coilovers and an aftermarket LSD.


Robert is smart enough to put a lot of words together to make it look like he knows what he is talking about. He also throws in references to school and equations and full time job, like those things validate any of the information in his post. I don't really have time or care to get into some pedantic argument over the effects of pieces of aluminum. All you need to know is that his first post had the following statements with the following nonsense justifications:

M3 LSD > Quailfe LSD (Reason: Dedicated aftermarket LSD can't be worse off than OEM mass produced LSD)

M3 Suspension > KW3 + Upgraded Anti-roll and Arms (Reason: many DE M3 driver upgrade their precious suspension)

Those are logical fallacies if I have ever seen any...

The quality of the M variable differential and stock suspension may not be the best in the world, but they sure as hell have NOTHING to do with the fact that they are either OEM made or replaced by owners who might have more money than brains. I guess all those differentials in the Nissan GTR's AWD system are crap because they are mass produced huh.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by chris719

Robert is smart enough to put a lot of words together to make it look like he knows what he is talking about. He also throws in references to school and equations and full time job, like those things validate any of the information in his post. I don't really have time or care to get into some pedantic argument over the effects of pieces of aluminum. All you need to know is that his first post had the following statements with the following nonsense justifications

Sure let me toss the excuses out, you are making the claim enthusiast can not duplicate the well tuned M suspension using aftermarket parts, because BMW's engineers approached the problem from a systematic perspective designed a well integrated and comprehensive solution that no one can come close or replicate.

Meaning some of the many vendors here like Berk Technology, for example, who enhances vehicle performance and test them on track using "pre-built after market hardware" will not be able to duplicate the same level of performance, because by your logic they are not OEM. Thereby any idiots like rest of us or JUST ME if that makes you happy, can't duplicate the BMW system using an aftermarket system, tested and designed by vendors through piecemeal until it fits our satisfaction. (Here's the part I say okay let me throw on a KW first, okay a roll bar, next new wishbone and so on until we get the car right.)

Most importantly, I am sorry you can't refute my statement that "Average Joe can't replicate the M suspension using aftermarket vendors" through a simple character attack. The common logical flaw is know as "ad hominem" which basically says

>>

Person 1 makes claim X
There is something objectionable about Person 1
Therefore claim X is false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

>>

That doesn't prove your point at all. You need to establish technical credibility before calling out others having none. Thus far you have given none. The only logic you gave to back your claim is "because its OEM it has to be better." That's a very weak statement and speaks little of your technical knowledge, which you claim others don't have.

I genuinely like to know what you know about BMW engineering such that its suspension is so good that can't replicated. I mentioned equations because I want facts and numbers. And as a fellow engineer, I'd like to point out not all decisions are made by engineering and neither should it be.


Btw

He also throws in references to school and equations and full time job, like those things validate any of the information in his post. I don't really have time or care to get into some pedantic argument over the effects of pieces of aluminum.

So I can't say I don't have time due to X, Y, and Z but you can. Nothing like committing the same fallacy you pointed out, and if you don't care why bother speaking unless you just enjoy cutting people down, calling people "children", "N54 owner having M-penis envy", "those evo guys." Tell me who do you get along with, you basically just pissed on half of the forum.

Must be one of those engineers always want to one up others to make themselves feel good. Or you do have too much free time.

Peace.

[chris719]

Not sure you understood me correctly, obviously not everyone on the forum is like I described but there is definitely a small number of people that fit those descriptions. I'm fair, I'm not a fanboy, that was my point. Hell, my next car may be a 135i. I eagerly await the new 1M and I don't care to derail this thread further.

Anyway, it's the chassis and it's torsional stiffness that is going to be the difference maker. I would be glad if you could PM me any actual measured data showing a modified 135 outperforming an M3 in any metric other than 0-60 and the quarter mile.

[JimmyT]

Ok, ION with the 20k difference in base price for the 135i compared to the M version of the one series, would a base price for the car (theoretical) be in the mid 40s??? And any new news, or still a rehash of the stuff we have already received....

[Advevo]

I have owned a 135i changed diff with drexler lsd and shorter gear ratio.

I like new cars i have placed an order for a M3 GTS and own a M3 CSL and E90 M3.

I just want to point out. ///M is motorsports that means you can attack corners you need an engine where you can attack corners with. I thought the 135i was such car made it better with lsd and shorter gearing it was fast real fast. But attacking corners with the 135i turbo engine was russian roullette it was impossible to modulate on throttle midbend. Compared to lots of other engines the 135i has no lag. But compared to ///M high rev engines the 135i has massive lag. And impossible to balance the car on throttle midbend. There was always the point of to much or to less. For me the 135i even with lsd became a useless car. Could not get a smile on my face anymore driving that car. Drive an ///M with high rev thru corners and get some little tail out action with high revs on tap you get smiles on youre face from ear to ear.

I have had evo s subaru s etc i know turbo engines. But nothing beats a rwd car with lsd and high rev engines if you attack corners.

If you buy turbo engines buy an bmw AG car It is good enough. Just buy a 135i or 335i and tune it to pieces if you wish. But let ///motorsport be ///motorsport. And give us throttle response.

I have not found a turbo engine which can bring throttle response like any ///M engine i have ever driven. When the time comes turbo engine have throttle response like high rev atmo engines i am willing to buy it. But for now it s lag lag lag lag compared to ///M high rev engines.

[gnpower]

I don't care what they call it, as long as they can build it. Is it really possbile to remove over 500 lbs of weight out of a 1er? Even if it is, what are we losing? Are we losing engine weight or all the nice cabin features of the car. I don't want it to turn into CSL with no radio and extreme interior noise for more money.

[imported_mega]

I could do without almost all of that, and I always drive with my windows down a little, even when it's cold, because the car insulates too much of the sound, and that's part of what I enjoy about driving

[twenzel]

Originally Posted by Advevo

I have owned a 135i changed diff with drexler lsd and shorter gear ratio.

I like new cars i have placed an order for a M3 GTS and own a M3 CSL and E90 M3.

I just want to point out. ///M is motorsports that means you can attack corners you need an engine where you can attack corners with. I thought the 135i was such car made it better with lsd and shorter gearing it was fast real fast. But attacking corners with the 135i turbo engine was russian roullette it was impossible to modulate on throttle midbend. Compared to lots of other engines the 135i has no lag. But compared to ///M high rev engines the 135i has massive lag. And impossible to balance the car on throttle midbend. There was always the point of to much or to less. For me the 135i even with lsd became a useless car. Could not get a smile on my face anymore driving that car. Drive an ///M with high rev thru corners and get some little tail out action with high revs on tap you get smiles on youre face from ear to ear.

I have had evo s subaru s etc i know turbo engines. But nothing beats a rwd car with lsd and high rev engines if you attack corners.

If you buy turbo engines buy an bmw AG car It is good enough. Just buy a 135i or 335i and tune it to pieces if you wish. But let ///motorsport be ///motorsport. And give us throttle response.

I have not found a turbo engine which can bring throttle response like any ///M engine i have ever driven. When the time comes turbo engine have throttle response like high rev atmo engines i am willing to buy it. But for now it s lag lag lag lag compared to ///M high rev engines.

All apologies to my earlier post for the name calling and ignorance of your driving history.

Still, The old school M enthusiasts are hard to please and I dont think the market supports their demands. Sadly, Looks like most M cars will be turbo soon enough.

[Advevo]

Maybe it will. But then my only way is porsche GT3.

I am a hardcore ///M enthusiast i really don t care much about porsche. But if ///M brings laggy turbo cars then it s for me the only route.

I would never buy a X5 ///M pointless car including turbo and lag and 4 wd not ///M worty. When i go on wintersports the X5 is fantastic mostly i take my friends X5 with me on wintersports but give me a X5 diesel then. Otherwise i be more busy put fuel in the car then go and relax for holiday.

X5 are people carriers not Motorsports cars at 2300kg.

[BForbes]

People often forget that the same guys that brought you the E30 //M3 are STILL working in the M division. Tell them about M worthy. You cant keep making the same type of car over and over again. Markets change! Current //M cars are heavier and more sophisticated than before. That is life. Look at a Lotus Elise. VERY light and chintzy. How many raw/hardcore people are lining up to buy those. I can't think of an incompetent modern //M car or SUV. They are still mighty impressive for what they are. An X5M and X6M will dance circles around cars almost half the size. NUMBERS DONT LIE. Keep in mind I'm not talking about "feel."

[hlmiii]

Originally Posted by BForbes

People often forget that the same guys that brought you the E30 //M3 are STILL working in the M division. Tell them about M worthy. You cant keep making the same type of car over and over again. Markets change! ... NUMBERS DONT LIE. Keep in mind I'm not talking about "feel."

Excellent in every respect.

The decades has proven that BMW is technologically and financially successful in its operations in the specialist market.

A relatively few hardcore enthusiasts are just not sufficient to enable any company to produce a stripped down or "real" M car and survive in the market and pricing in which BMW operates. Period.

[jabwind51]

Originally Posted by BForbes

People often forget that the same guys that brought you the E30 //M3 are STILL working in the M division. Tell them about M worthy. You cant keep making the same type of car over and over again. Markets change! Current //M cars are heavier and more sophisticated than before. That is life. Look at a Lotus Elise. VERY light and chintzy. How many raw/hardcore people are lining up to buy those. I can't think of an incompetent modern //M car or SUV. They are still mighty impressive for what they are. An X5M and X6M will dance circles around cars almost half the size. NUMBERS DONT LIE. Keep in mind I'm not talking about "feel."

i agree. but not really the SAME guys are making the new cars at M. and how much control do they have over what they make? who's to say that M engineers aren't mashing their teeth over what they have been TOLD to make..? i bet if they tried to reproduce past beauties in this generation they would get the axe.

[atr_hugo]

FYI - there are recent hints on this intertubes thingee that the 'M1' will show up at the Dubai auto show. More info as further details become available.

[Advevo]

It s nice they still care about people like us and bring M3 CSL and GTS.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by jabwind51

i agree. but not really the SAME guys are making the new cars at M. and how much control do they have over what they make? who's to say that M engineers aren't mashing their teeth over what they have been TOLD to make..? i bet if they tried to reproduce past beauties in this generation they would get the axe.

You're right as well. We are not aware of the certain degree of control they have. The bosses fluctuate quite often. My point was mostly to say that many are still there in the shop. Luckily for us, the new //M boss gave the super version of the 1er the green light. Who gave him the greenlight? I suspect a board somewhere. Perhaps the same folks that allowed Bangle to change the way the brand's aesthetics are now perceived.