BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

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      05-27-2013, 12:10 PM   #89
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The old 135i vs 1M debate, pops up everywhere. I'd take a 135i over a 1M any day. Then the same goes for 128i owners saying they'd take their 128i over the 135i.

I've seen 2 1Ms here in WA and I was happy to see them out there and being driven but I wasn't wowed.

N/A means anything that rely's on the engine itself for power with no external power additive like a turbo, s/c or nitrous. Forced Induction (FI) means anything that rely's on an external power to boost the engines capability, so a turbo, supercharger or spray (nitrous).
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      05-27-2013, 12:24 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilante375 View Post
The old 135i vs 1M debate, pops up everywhere. I'd take a 135i over a 1M any day. Then the same goes for 128i owners saying they'd take their 128i over the 135i.
Man, these boards get dysfunctional sometimes. I find it funny, but also kind of sad. An article comes around celebrating the virtues of the E82 in all its incarnations, and the 1er community descends into civil war. Go to the 2002 boards - you won't find tii owners constantly bickering with ti owners, or Turbo owners gloating over the masses. You'll just find dudes that appreciate their chassis. Heck, they even welcome 1602 owners (imagine that!). If you've spent any time on other car sites you've probably heard a fair amount of vitriol directed towards the 1er. With so much hate to go around, you'd think we could at least be a little more positive amongst ourselves.
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      05-27-2013, 12:46 PM   #91
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Know your place on the totem poll (who's faster is just a portion of that) appreciate what others have and overall just enjoy your car!
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      05-27-2013, 12:51 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilante375 View Post
The old 135i vs 1M debate, pops up everywhere. I'd take a 135i over a 1M any day. Then the same goes for 128i owners saying they'd take their 128i over the 135i.

I've seen 2 1Ms here in WA and I was happy to see them out there and being driven but I wasn't wowed.

N/A means anything that rely's on the engine itself for power with no external power additive like a turbo, s/c or nitrous. Forced Induction (FI) means anything that rely's on an external power to boost the engines capability, so a turbo, supercharger or spray (nitrous).
Technically superchargers use engine power to make more power and turbos recover wasted energy (so in a technical sense they both use engine power)

Forced induction is anything that increases the mixture pressure in the cylinders. EGR has this property somewhat too.


While I'm being a bit cheeky here I will say that spray is not FI. Spray changes the fuel type and the pressure created by combustion, but it doesnt change the pressure of the mixture. Rather, it changes the chemical composition of the mixture. -that answer is serious.
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      05-27-2013, 12:53 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
Man, these boards get dysfunctional sometimes. I find it funny, but also kind of sad. An article comes around celebrating the virtues of the E82 in all its incarnations, and the 1er community descends into civil war. Go to the 2002 boards - you won't find tii owners constantly bickering with ti owners, or Turbo owners gloating over the masses. You'll just find dudes that appreciate their chassis. Heck, they even welcome 1602 owners (imagine that!). If you've spent any time on other car sites you've probably heard a fair amount of vitriol directed towards the 1er. With so much hate to go around, you'd think we could at least be a little more positive amongst ourselves.
The bimmerpost merger ruined this site (inbeforesomeoneelsesaidit)





It just shows insecurities to me honestly. I bought my car, I love my car, and I'm going to keep my car until it dies - fix it - and then drive it into the ground again. Why thats not good enough for a lot of people is beyond me.
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      05-27-2013, 12:55 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Ender_ View Post
You are lacking some basic knowledge of what makes up a 1M if you think that's all it is and that it can all just be slapped together.
Again I know for a fact, that it takes a whole lot more then $10k to try and match the handling characteristics of a 1M.

You can do all this and have it installed for less then $15k? I highly doubt it. Sure maybe if you get everything used and do it yourself, even then I will find it hard to believe.

-Bigger axle for a wider stance
-Upgraded Braking system
-LSD
-Front and rear control arms
-Full suspension upgrade (coil and struts)
-Bushings
-MDM tuning
-Steering rack...

Not to mention the 19" wheels, tires, cooling system, engine tune, lightened flywheel etc...

Look I had a 135i, the reason I got the 1M is because loved my 1er so much. As others have said I'm not saying its not possible to make a 135/28 handle better then a 1M but it would take ALOT of money and time to do so.

It's not about each part its about the whole being greater then the sum. And that is why the 1M will be and is a collectors, not to mention its limited production. And exactly as other have said, due to the 1M the e82 in general will be a collector just as the E30 is now because of the E30 M3.
M3 Front Control Arm Upgrade Kit $382.95
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E82-135....0L/ES2586480/

Rear M3 Bushing Kit, $447.91
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E82-135...ngs/ES2538694/

135i/335i Wavetrac Limited Slip Differential (LSD) $1995.00
http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/90

all this adds up to $2825.86

The wider track width of the 1M can mainly be attributed to lower offset wheels not a wider axel.

As my original statement said that you can make a 135i handle as well as a 1M by doing those 3 upgrades, we all know Brakes don't help with handling.

Also the steering rack ratio doesn't help with handling either, it gives the car quicker turn in but wont help the car hold more lateral G's

The best way to improve a cars lateral G's and stopping distance is to upgrade the tires. We all know the run flats sucks ass so buying some nice Dunlop ZII's to correct the issue is the way to go in that department.

You're still nowhere near 10k with all these things mentioned.
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      05-27-2013, 02:52 PM   #95
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Look, I think it is a pretty silly argument since they are both great cars. But for accuracy, the 135is equipped with same options as my 1m is 50k, loaded basically. Add your upgrades, plus installation your at 54k. Add better tires 55k. More than what I paid
for my 1m. And, you still have skinnier wheels and less braking. Yes you can build a 135 to compare to 1m but when you crunch the numbers it gets tight. Plus, you will lose in resale on the modded car but not stock 1m. Bottom line, both great cars!
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      05-27-2013, 03:11 PM   #96
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I'm just thrilled to own a 1 series, it most represents what I value most in the brand (small (sort of), manual transmission, nice sounding high reving engine, rear wheel drive, good handling, distinctive look, can fit four people in a pinch).

I really don't get the 1m, 135i, 128i contest, just get out there and do some autocross and hpde's, curvy roads and enjoy the car!
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      05-27-2013, 03:22 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenVert View Post
Technically superchargers use engine power to make more power and turbos recover wasted energy (so in a technical sense they both use engine power)

Forced induction is anything that increases the mixture pressure in the cylinders. EGR has this property somewhat too.


While I'm being a bit cheeky here I will say that spray is not FI. Spray changes the fuel type and the pressure created by combustion, but it doesnt change the pressure of the mixture. Rather, it changes the chemical composition of the mixture. -that answer is serious.
S/C and turbo force pressure into the engine to make more power, hence forced induction. Bump up the pressure and you make more power right? N20 isn't forced induction? Then why is it forced into the engine to make more power?

Here, let me Google that for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_induction

It doesn't list N20 as a form of forced induction but I consider it to be but to each their own.
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      05-27-2013, 04:11 PM   #98
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good read
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      05-27-2013, 04:21 PM   #99
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I'd like a 1M...

... With a blown engine so I could put an actual M engine into it.

Too bad they had to keep it slower than the M3, because a 1M with an s65 or updated s54 would have been one of the best cars ever made by any company.

So sad about modern turbo/eps/automated gearbox/idrive/DI/run flats/no dip stick/no drain plug BMW. What's worse is that there's no company that is what they used to be .

In 2002, I wanted literally every car BMW made. Today they make one car I desire, and production ends soon: the 128i.

Last edited by Obioban; 05-27-2013 at 04:28 PM..
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      05-27-2013, 04:33 PM   #100
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Progress, what an ugly thing!
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      05-27-2013, 04:48 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ender_ View Post
You are lacking some basic knowledge of what makes up a 1M if you think that's all it is and that it can all just be slapped together.
Again I know for a fact, that it takes a whole lot more then $10k to try and match the handling characteristics of a 1M.

You can do all this and have it installed for less then $15k? I highly doubt it. Sure maybe if you get everything used and do it yourself, even then I will find it hard to believe.

-Bigger axle for a wider stance
-Upgraded Braking system
-LSD
-Front and rear control arms
-Full suspension upgrade (coil and struts)
-Bushings
-MDM tuning
-Steering rack...

Not to mention the 19" wheels, tires, cooling system, engine tune, lightened flywheel etc...

Look I had a 135i, the reason I got the 1M is because loved my 1er so much. As others have said I'm not saying its not possible to make a 135/28 handle better then a 1M but it would take ALOT of money and time to do so.

It's not about each part its about the whole being greater then the sum. And that is why the 1M will be and is a collectors, not to mention its limited production. And exactly as other have said, due to the 1M the e82 in general will be a collector just as the E30 is now because of the E30 M3.
Very true indeed.
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      05-27-2013, 04:51 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleThreat View Post
What a insecure bunch.... The writer praised each model, but obviously that is not enough for some.....
Also very very true, all of a sudden this thread lost its way to 1M vs. usual "I made myself a better one, cheaper" thread.
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      05-27-2013, 04:57 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilante375 View Post
S/C and turbo force pressure into the engine to make more power, hence forced induction. Bump up the pressure and you make more power right? N20 isn't forced induction? Then why is it forced into the engine to make more power?

Here, let me Google that for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_induction

It doesn't list N20 as a form of forced induction but I consider it to be but to each their own.
Woah woah woah. Time out. Whats with the sarcasm and why are you trying to goat me into a fight?

I explained this in my previous post, but ill go into more detail in order to flush out any misconceptions. Youre confusing two types of pressure, induction pressure and combustion pressure.

Induction is the physical act of drawing air into the engine (preignition air that is). When we talk about forced induction we are talking about devises that increase the pressure of the air going into the cylinders. Devises such as superchargers, turbocharges, external air tanks (Koenigsegg is researching this now), EGR (very light intake pressure increase), etc.

Fuel has nothing to do with induction pressure.

What youre thinking about it combustion pressure. That is the physical pressure that pushes the cylinder down. Besides timing things such as valve lift and duration, this pressure is mostly effected by the pressure of the induction air (the charge) and the type of fuel being burned (different fuels make bigger booms when they explode).

When talking about N20 (a 20 shot of Nitrous) or meth we are talking about changing the composition of the fuel that is burned. No longer do we have a pure fuel like octane. Now we have a mixture of octane and nitrous oxide, or octane and methanol that is being burned. These fuels give stronger burn than simply octane, therefore we expect them to be accompanied by bigger power from increased combustion pressure - which is the case.

Does that make sense to you? Its not a to each their own thing. Its a very large physical difference. One works through stoichiometry (more O2 molecules gives you more air to burn - Forced Induction) the other works through chemistry (different fuels give you different sizes bangs)





TLDR: Changing the fuel changes combustion pressure which is different than induction pressure. Fuel additives are not forced induction.













Sorry about the OP, I just didnt want that misconception about FI to be left alone.
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      05-27-2013, 05:35 PM   #104
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I think a lot of people are confusing handling with grip, when they are not the same at all. E.g., a miata handles amazingly but is slow. A GTR is fast but doesn't have good handling.

Handling is about feel, control, precision, and responsiveness.

Some elements of the 1M package, e.g. stiffer bushings, do indeed improve handling. Others, such as wider tires and increased weight, make it worse (yes, even if they make it corner faster).

Again, outside of the engine, I'm a HUGE fan of the 1M. Absolutely the best thing BMW has made in years, in spite of the engine. Just need to get the terminology of the conversation straightened out.
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      05-27-2013, 05:38 PM   #105
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Also, a tighter steering rack is not better-- it's a different priority set. Faster turn in at the expense of high speed stability.

If it was just "better", then it's what would come on all cars-- it's not like it's more expensive to make.
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      05-27-2013, 05:41 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rad doc View Post
Look, I think it is a pretty silly argument since they are both great cars. But for accuracy, the 135is equipped with same options as my 1m is 50k, loaded basically. Add your upgrades, plus installation your at 54k. Add better tires 55k. More than what I paid
for my 1m. And, you still have skinnier wheels and less braking. Yes you can build a 135 to compare to 1m but when you crunch the numbers it gets tight. Plus, you will lose in resale on the modded car but not stock 1m. Bottom line, both great cars!
Maybe I should have been clearer. Used 135i vs used 1M. The 1M is double the cost of a clean used 135i of the same vintage.
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      05-27-2013, 07:28 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reapur
Quote:
Originally Posted by rad doc View Post
Look, I think it is a pretty silly argument since they are both great cars. But for accuracy, the 135is equipped with same options as my 1m is 50k, loaded basically. Add your upgrades, plus installation your at 54k. Add better tires 55k. More than what I paid
for my 1m. And, you still have skinnier wheels and less braking. Yes you can build a 135 to compare to 1m but when you crunch the numbers it gets tight. Plus, you will lose in resale on the modded car but not stock 1m. Bottom line, both great cars!
Maybe I should have been clearer. Used 135i vs used 1M. The 1M is double the cost of a clean used 135i of the same vintage.
And it should be the kit in the 1M is special the 135i is not.
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      05-27-2013, 08:57 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post
Not to parse words, but I think there's a difference between classic and collectible. Classic is more of a recognition or celebration of a car's attributes, especially relative to the time it was produced and the cars that followed it. Collectible assumes those attributes (or others) will be considered so desirable that the car will hold its value better or eventually rise relative to other cars from the same era.

To me, the 1 Series may represent a future classic because of all the "lasts" as I described previously in this thread. That's why the 2 Series, IMO, may not be considered a direct replacement as others have suggested. And, as the article mentions, future tuners and tinkerers may have fun with 10-15 year old 1 Series because they are fairly easy to mod/tune and they share a lot of parts with the far more common 3 Series.

But as for collectible, only the 1M seems a sure bet and maybe (!) some other variants to like the 135is, albeit to a much lesser degree.
Well written, and I could not agree more.
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      05-28-2013, 01:28 AM   #109
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Great article. The 1'er coupé and convertibles are special cars. Especially when your looking at the 135, 135is and 1M variants.

I love my 135 vert and looked at the likes of the 335 but the playfulness of the chassis on the 1'er won me over.
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      05-28-2013, 08:11 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
I'll be the first to admit that attempting to replicate a 1M by tuning a 135i is a wasted effort, but still, there is a level of ///M-worship on these boards that sometimes escalates to nauseating levels. Phrases like "greater than the sum of its parts" imply some sort of voodoo taking place at the ///M division, the result of which is the intangible yet extremely potent ///M-ness, to which we all must kneel. The reality is that suspension tuning is science, and the 1M, like all vehicles, is actually EXACTLY the sum of its parts. What else could it possibly be?
I agree 100%, but sometimes the M-worship is baited by comments claiming that you can replicate a factory performance car with a handful of parts and a weekend install. That's just absurd.

I'm not suggesting we worship M. Just as you said, handling is science, so anyone with the time and budget can do it. M cars get science poured all over them. The tuning of a 1M is the result of hundreds of hours of testing and tuning, not to mention the benefit of the cooperative experience of everyone working on the car. I suspect that when people say things like "greater than the sum of its parts", they're really talking about these things.
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