BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

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      11-07-2008, 09:17 PM   #67
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Any updates?
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      11-10-2008, 03:02 PM   #68
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Squeak - The OEM 135 brakes are Brembo. And if you are incinuating we should just buy aftermarket, to that I take a counterpoint. BMW was very strong in toting the Brembo 6 piston brakes throughout their marketing of the 135.

If they chose to market these brakes as performance equipment they should stand behind them (or in front of them at about 140mph) and make sure these brakes are robust enough to support their marketing claims.

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      11-25-2008, 12:42 AM   #69
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Ceramic has a very good capacity for handling very high heats, so the extra heat from race pads shouldn't cause the ceramic to crack. Ceramic does fracture very easily when jarred, however, so my best guess would be that the instances where the ceramic has cracked would be due to vibrations or jarring.
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      11-25-2008, 10:50 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stovesax08 View Post
Ceramic has a very good capacity for handling very high heats, so the extra heat from race pads shouldn't cause the ceramic to crack. Ceramic does fracture very easily when jarred, however, so my best guess would be that the instances where the ceramic has cracked would be due to vibrations or jarring.
Possibly a knock-back issue then?
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      11-25-2008, 12:34 PM   #71
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I don't believe so. That issue was raised, either earlier in this thread or the sticky, and elaborated as to why that was not a possibility.
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      11-26-2008, 02:39 PM   #72
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A common item is to use a titanium plate between the pad and pistons- Stoptech sells these. The use of the ceramic is likely an attempt at insulating heat transfer and thereby reducing the likelihood of boiling the fluid. Since these "pads" were prototypes, did they use the oem backing plate? If not, check the measurements against an OEM backing plate for variance. Also check on how well they were retained while and when installed- it happens.
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      01-11-2009, 08:20 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieRacer View Post
FYI, knockback doesn't occur during braking, rather it occurs when no brake pressure (or not enough) is in the system, and the rotor movement (caused by tolerance play in the wheel bearings) causes the rotor to slap up against the pads, thereby pushing the pads and pistons back into the caliper (which has a fixed position relative to other brake bits).

Knockback is cured by:
1. using floating rotors, so rotor can stay relative to the caliper
2. using pressure residual valves in the system to maintain slight brake pressure up against the pads to resist knockback (most common solution)
3. reducing the free-play tolerance in the bearing (only done if there is excessive play)
Let's be careful here! Residual pressure valves (RPV's) can be a disastrous solution is misapplied even just a little bit. Floating rotors and stiffer bearings definitely will help.

The ultimate solution is to use calipers engineered properly such that the anti-knockback springs and/or pressure seals themselves do the job. And, the result of pad knockback is a pedal that needs to be pumped up after a hard corner, not additional heat. Knockback, while a royal pain and totally intolerable, would not contribute to the ceramic insert issue at all.

Quote:
Ceramic has a very good capacity for handling very high heats, so the extra heat from race pads shouldn't cause the ceramic to crack.
Some ceramics yes, some ceramics no. The field of ceramic materials is a bit of a designer one. The main reason BMW and Brembo chose to use whichever ceramic material they chose on the 135i would appear to be to reduce the rate of heat transfer from the pad back plate to the pistons, thereby lowering the change of boiling the brake fluid.

Quote:
Road race cars using track pads generate more heat than one will ever see on the street. The main reason is the compound of the pad. Also, we're talking about sustained heat that is very difficult to do on the street (except for maybe mountain/canyon driving).
Track pads actually handle more heat, not generate more heat. It's the energy released by slowing the car that generates heat. Race pads are more effective (when within their optimum temperature range) at slowing the car, but it is the repeated energy inputs on the track that make temperatures climb. This is the primary reason as to why brake cooling is such an important improvement one can make when track-prepping their car. Using paint temp on the rotors is critical in determining how the ducts are working (not enough, just right or too much) and which pads to use. These factors will vary from track to track and driver to driver. If I was tracking this car, I would also fix caliper temp stickers. If the ceramic insert issue reared its ugly head, I'd want to know what temperature the calipers needed to be at to experience this.

Also, while aftermarket pads are not all the same, they can be made just as well as the OE pads as far as fit and finish goes (and there are plenty that are not!). Actually, there are aren't that many companies in the world that actually make brake pads as the equipment is very expensive and solely dedicated. Many brands are made by the same factory or set of factories. Of course, since the 135i is still fairly new, some race pad distributors have been cutting them from larger pads. They can get this right or they can get it wrong, so only buy from someone with a TON of experience in doing that job.
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      01-11-2009, 10:13 PM   #74
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Chris B, good to see an AP Racing expert here! All I can say is that the cracking piston issue has turned into a positive for me, as my replacement AP Racing caliper with much larger rotor is such an improvement on my car on the track! But of course, it has cost me an arm and a leg for the new brake set up. Btw, can you clarify for me the difference in AP and Brembo range? Are they totally different or do they overlap seeing that they are one company?
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      01-11-2009, 10:59 PM   #75
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Don't go AP racing vs Brembo, since the Brembo guy will say they have brought AP and AP has inferior technology. It happened in the other forum .

I have medium term experience with AP and love it to death. Hence I supported you 100% WAY when you told me you are going for an AP caliper.
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      01-12-2009, 01:21 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WAY View Post
Chris B, good to see an AP Racing expert here! All I can say is that the cracking piston issue has turned into a positive for me, as my replacement AP Racing caliper with much larger rotor is such an improvement on my car on the track! But of course, it has cost me an arm and a leg for the new brake set up. Btw, can you clarify for me the difference in AP and Brembo range? Are they totally different or do they overlap seeing that they are one company?
AP Racing (in the UK) and Brembo (HQ in Italy) are operated as completely separate business units. Both have entirely separate distributor networks, although some companies sell both under separate agreements. All of APR's products are unique to them. The only exceptions I'm aware of are a couple of mechanically-actuated parking brake calipers that are used on a few supercars that AP purchases from Brembo just like any other distributor would.

They are essentially separate companies with a common owner since the chairman of Brembo led the purchase of AP Racing about 8 or 9 years ago. The intention then was to keep them separate, which has not changed as of yet. This keeps both on their toes as they compete fiercly with one another. Each has their strengths and weaknesses in their respective areas of focus, but both are excellent organizations.
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      01-12-2009, 06:13 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AP Racing - Chris_B View Post
Let's be careful here! Residual pressure valves (RPV's) can be a disastrous solution is misapplied even just a little bit. Floating rotors and stiffer bearings definitely will help.

The ultimate solution is to use calipers engineered properly such that the anti-knockback springs and/or pressure seals themselves do the job. And, the result of pad knockback is a pedal that needs to be pumped up after a hard corner, not additional heat. Knockback, while a royal pain and totally intolerable, would not contribute to the ceramic insert issue at all.
Not disagreeing, but on a bang for buck equation, $100 fix versus a few $k's solution, residual pressure valves present a compelling offer.

Yes, they can induce drag (and the extra heat problems that goes with that), but frequently on a track the drag induced can be made up during the braking zone by the extra confidence the driver regains in their brake pedal.
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      01-12-2009, 02:47 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieRacer View Post
Not disagreeing, but on a bang for buck equation, $100 fix versus a few $k's solution, residual pressure valves present a compelling offer.
Some people do find satisfactory results that way. But we should all understand that this is a band-aid, not a true solution. If it someone gets it all wrong, the "bang for buck" equation goes right out the window (and maybe into the K-rail!). Of course, we are all monitoring our brake temps on track days, aren't we boys and girls???:wink:
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      01-23-2009, 07:10 PM   #79
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http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...d=1#post301357
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      05-03-2010, 11:38 PM   #80
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So to bring back an old thread...

Why not just replace the ceramic puck with a titanium one?
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      04-18-2020, 05:32 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebagheri1 View Post
After reading this post I appreciate all the information you've put out there. If any of you are experiencing this issue but aren't frequently tracking. I recently bought a pair of 6 pot brakes and the ceramic caps on the pistons were cracked up! I've been trying to find a replacement set but everyone says that they don't sell them. WRONG !! ECS TUNING FOR THE WIN
if you're not a track rat like me you can save 300$ buy skipping the stop tech replacement kit
here are the part numbers for you 😘
28mm 146.28004
32mm 146.32010
36mm. 146.36022
you're welcome!
Wait. What are you doing for dust boots and seals?

How many of each did you get for your rebuild?
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      04-20-2020, 12:55 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebagheri1 View Post
After reading this post I appreciate all the information you've put out there. If any of you are experiencing this issue but aren't frequently tracking. I recently bought a pair of 6 pot brakes and the ceramic caps on the pistons were cracked up! I've been trying to find a replacement set but everyone says that they don't sell them. WRONG !! ECS TUNING FOR THE WIN
if you're not a track rat like me you can save 300$ buy skipping the stop tech replacement kit
here are the part numbers for you 😘
28mm 146.28004
32mm 146.32010
36mm. 146.36022
you're welcome!
This is certainly interesting - are these OEM style with the same pehnolic/ceramic puck that mates against the brake pad? Hmm this definitely seems like a good option. Qty 4 of each should do the trick for a pair of fronts. I'd imagine OEM dust boots would still fit, but where do we get the OEM style seals?
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      04-20-2020, 01:43 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitcore View Post
This is certainly interesting - are these OEM style with the same pehnolic/ceramic puck that mates against the brake pad? Hmm this definitely seems like a good option. Qty 4 of each should do the trick for a pair of fronts. I'd imagine OEM dust boots would still fit, but where do we get the OEM style seals?
I think you can buy the dust boots from rock auto? Like this:

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...epair+kit,1720

The seals/boots shouldn't be different for the stainless/steel pistons vs the OEM style pistons right? The diameters etc are the same....so...
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      04-20-2020, 03:03 PM   #84
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I just upgraded to racingbrakes stainless steel pistons and heat resistant dust boots. They work like a charm.
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