135i Brake Pistons Revealed

[m7ammed]

Originally Posted by 1erich

I would imagine that because BMW replaces brake pads under warranty (in the USA at least) that you'd be SOL after the warranty expires and you use aftermarket pads.

So BMW covers brake pads in this US? does the warranty apply to all wear and tear items? or are you just confusing free service with warranty?


what does SOL mean by the way ?

[Yearofthe1]

Originally Posted by adood84

So BMW covers brake pads in this US? does the warranty apply to all wear and tear items? or are you just confusing free service with warranty?


what does SOL mean by the way ?

All wear and tear except tires. parts and service included.

SOL - shit out of luck

[Evolution Racewerks]

I highly doubt this will be an issue for street cars, at least if it's related to heat. Road race cars using track pads generate more heat than one will ever see on the street. The main reason is the compound of the pad. Also, we're talking about sustained heat that is very difficult to do on the street (except for maybe mountain/canyon driving).

We ran 6 track events on the stock pads without any issues. The piston inserts looked good. No signs of damage. We were inspecting it after Ralph/Scott had broken theirs and they were borrowing ours so we were looking for it. I'm sure they inspected it as well. Our caliper after 1 event with them had damage. That needs to be taken into account so we can get to the bottom of why this happened.

BTW, I suggest you don't engine brake. Brake pads are cheaper than clutches, both in cost of part and labor to change.

Originally Posted by esses

This is a serious concern for non-tracked cars as well. Even if we assume this only happened because aftermarket pads were used by people who have posted here.

Brake pads will always wear out. BMW can not require that we always replace worn out pads with BMW pads. ESPECIALLY by ignoring that non-oem may cause catastrophic failure of a braking system which is life-threatening is most circumstances.

The most mundane Smart Car driver will eventually be in a situation where their brakes are subjected to similar heat as that of a tracked car. You don't have to be the "ultimate driving machine" driver to heat up your pads. In these cases the rotors were not warped so we really are not talking about excessive heat.

After reading these posts I make it a point to engine brake all the time (which is no solution). Really. This is bad stuff. I can deal with high pressure fuel pump issues - a high pressure fuel pump failure probably will not kill me. Brakes are an entirely different ball game.

Thanks for all the updates guys. When BMWNA calls me to follow up on my recent cam shaft sensor failure you bet I'm going to bring this up.

[Evolution Racewerks]

I agree. Keep in mind, the two different people at this moment with insert failures both run the same brake pad, which is custom machined and cut from an existing brake pad not designed for this caliper.

I believe it may be a combination of both high sustained heat with possible piston "knockback" that is causing this. I've talked to a few well knowledge friends in the industry on their option (without me even mentioning my theory) and all think this is the most likely suspect.

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

I'm not sure heat is the issue - the inserts are disintegrating and yet they are ceramic which are intended to be used in extreme heat conditions.

Rather, I would first suspect that there's some 'chattering' (repeated hammer blows) between the aftermarket pads and the pistons that's causing the fractures/disintegration.

[esses]

Originally Posted by Evolution Racewerks

I highly doubt this will be an issue for street cars, at least if it's related to heat. Road race cars using track pads generate more heat than one will ever see on the street. The main reason is the compound of the pad. Also, we're talking about sustained heat that is very difficult to do on the street (except for maybe mountain/canyon driving).

We ran 6 track events on the stock pads without any issues. The piston inserts looked good. No signs of damage. We were inspecting it after Ralph/Scott had broken theirs and they were borrowing ours so we were looking for it. I'm sure they inspected it as well. Our caliper after 1 event with them had damage. That needs to be taken into account so we can get to the bottom of why this happened.

BTW, I suggest you don't engine brake. Brake pads are cheaper than clutches, both in cost of part and labor to change.

I disagree with your first point, I've replaced warped rotors on Caravans (and many other street cars). Since we are not seeing warped rotors in these instances when the ceramics failed I am assuming it is relatively low heat if it is heat-related at all. I can generate track level heat driving the speed limit down a canyon in the Arizona desert in June, I guarantee it.

From the facts we have, I don't think it is heat related, hence my post focusing on the aftermarket pads. I'm not sure why people are talking about the Magnuson-Moss Act... but I stand by my statement: BMW can not, repeat can not, require that you only use BMW replacement brake pads on BMW cars. (Its anti-trust people, nothing to do with a warranty.)

If the brake assembly manufactured by BMW fails when non-oem pads are used there is a problem. I don't care if it is heat related, knock realted, or simply happens every full moon.

The fact that your (and mine for that matter) brakes work just fine so far in oem setup does not mean there is not a defect. A product defect does not have to materialize in 100% of the products to be a defect. For all we know it could be as simple as a bad batch of ceramic inserts - we have no idea. That is why BMW needs to investigate.

I do agree with you when it comes to engine braking, my point is that my tranny is worth less than my life. I drive a road with blind curves and steep droppoffs into the ocean to get home every single day. Some Ford Pintos exploded when rear ended before they were recalled - if you had to drive one today, I bet you would keep a watchful eye on your rear view. Slim probability is meaningless when you are looking at astronomical costs.

[Evolution Racewerks]

Not having warping rotors does not show lack of heat. The idea of warping a rotor from heat is not from heat alone. It is from quick temperature changes, having a hot rotor cool down quickly. All of us that road race, we have cool down laps after a hot lap. This helps us cool down the brake system gradually. Generally, when we do have warped rotors is from deposits left on the rotor from the pad. This is why we don't engage the brake or use the e-brake when the car is sitting after a run.

As I mentioned above, it is possible to do on the streets in mountain/canyon roads so I'm not saying you can't do it.

We've had the brakes billowing out smoke on track events. I think I even have it on video somewhere. Our brakes were used hard. Our OEM brake pad fell apart when I finally took them out. Yet our caliper was fine. This caliper was used for 6 track days. We took this caliper out and check it. It was in good condition. This SAME caliper was lent to Ralph/Scott which in 1 event is now damaged. The only variable between the two of us is the brake pad. You have to remember, Ralph/Scott has now gone through 2 sets of calipers.

Originally Posted by esses

I disagree with your first point, I've replaced warped rotors on Caravans (and many other street cars). Since we are not seeing warped rotors in these instances when the ceramics failed I am assuming it is relatively low heat if it is heat-related at all. I can generate track level heat driving the speed limit down a canyon in the Arizona desert in June, I guarantee it.

From the facts we have, I don't think it is heat related, hence my post focusing on the aftermarket pads. I'm not sure why people are talking about the Magnuson-Moss Act... but I stand by my statement: BMW can not, repeat can not, require that you only use BMW replacement brake pads on BMW cars. (Its anti-trust people, nothing to do with a warranty.)

If the brake assembly manufactured by BMW fails when non-oem pads are used there is a problem. I don't care if it is heat related, knock realted, or simply happens every full moon.

The fact that your (and mine for that matter) brakes work just fine so far in oem setup does not mean there is not a defect. A product defect does not have to materialize in 100% of the products to be a defect. For all we know it could be as simple as a bad batch of ceramic inserts - we have no idea. That is why BMW needs to investigate.

I do agree with you when it comes to engine braking, my point is that my tranny is worth less than my life. I drive a road with blind curves and steep droppoffs into the ocean to get home every single day. Some Ford Pintos exploded when rear ended before they were recalled - if you had to drive one today, I bet you would keep a watchful eye on your rear view. Slim probability is meaningless when you are looking at astronomical costs.

[m7ammed]

Originally Posted by Evolution Racewerks

We've had the brakes billowing out smoke on track events. I think I even have it on video somewhere. Our brakes were used hard. Our OEM brake pad fell apart when I finally took them out. Yet our caliper was fine. This caliper was used for 6 track days. We took this caliper out and check it. It was in good condition. This SAME caliper was lent to Ralph/Scott which in 1 event is now damaged. The only variable between the two of us is the brake pad. You have to remember, Ralph/Scott has now gone through 2 sets of calipers.

@esses: I think Evolution Racewerks is making alot of sense here , since the same caliper was used in 6 track events to the point of pads falling apart and then in 1 even when using another pad on a different car its damaged , then you've got only reasons for it to eb damges either it was the car or the pads, ands since its the same car the fingers point to the pad. Has anybody tried fitting pads that were designed to actually fit and have had this problem happen to them? cause you can't excpect BMW to even make tolarnces for pads that were machined and tampred with just to fit them to the car.

[My135]

"I believe it may be a combination of both high sustained heat with possible piston "knockback" that is causing this."

I belive the "knockback" theory and it is quite possible since the pad was not an exact fit to the OEM caliper and it might move/vibrate/hammering/knockback during hard braking. The unwanted movement combined with excess heat could damage the ceramic inserts.

[Yearofthe1]

Originally Posted by esses

I can generate track level heat driving the speed limit down a canyon in the Arizona desert in June, I guarantee it.

I'm not sure why people are talking about the Magnuson-Moss Act... but I stand by my statement: BMW can not, repeat can not, require that you only use BMW replacement brake pads on BMW cars. (Its anti-trust people, nothing to do with a warranty.)

If the brake assembly manufactured by BMW fails when non-oem pads are used there is a problem. I don't care if it is heat related, knock realted, or simply happens every full moon.

First, Evo-Race did admit that high temps could be encountered during canyon driving.

I mentioned Magnuson-Moss because I believe I've read a stipulation that if the company pays for the maintainence parts and labor involved, then they can say they won't honor the warranty if their parts aren't used. Now I may be mistaken here, but the fact remains it has nothing to do with anti-trust issues, this is a warranty issue. Anti-trust laws protect against monopolizing a market and have nothing to do with how a company designs and honors its warranties, that's what Mag-Moss is for. You are going to have a seriously hard time defending this point, but I welcome the debate.

And finally with the arguement you seem to making that break systems should tolerate any pad that appears to fit is absurd. Engineers make six-figure salaries for a reason, and "eyeing" it doesn't cut it. The pads being used weren't engineered specifically for these calipers, and they obviously caused a problem. BMW didn't design the 1er to be a race-car, thus we have a street pad with our brakes. Now if we start seeing these problems with OEM set-ups, then there is a problem.

[esses]

My first post was about the pads, and I said it again in my second post. I suspect it is all about the pad fitment.

Do you intend to use oem brake pads for the life of your car? BMW can not require you to use oem and they can not have a system that fails the second non-oem is used (which is the equivalent of requiring you to use OEM). If that is not anti-trust you need to give Microsoft a buzz because they didn't get the memo and they've got a great internet browser to sell you. At any rate, I don't want to get into a legal argument online for a myriad of reasons.

Bottom line: the OEM brake assembly should do what it was designed to do when used in the manner that is was designed to be used in. In other words, create stopping power.

If it does not do that when non-oem pads are used there is a problem. "Buy OEM or don't stop," which is what your argument boils down to, is completely unacceptable. Again, public forums are not the place to argue law, but in America liability for a product does not stop the moment it leaves the sales floor. That's pretty basic. More an issue of common sense and fairness that happens to also be a legal bedrock.

Hopefully BMW will forsee the potential for a very negative impact on brand reputation and corporate bottom lines if brakes start failing on 1ers once people start getting brake jobs outside of prepaid service and will investigate the issue. Also, hopefully, these incidents are a fluke or a slip in QC that can be easily remidied at service time. Just like what happened with my last 3 BMWs (although none of those involved something as important as brakes).

Originally Posted by Yearofthe1

First, Evo-Race did admit that high temps could be encountered during canyon driving.

I mentioned Magnuson-Moss because I believe I've read a stipulation that if the company pays for the maintainence parts and labor involved, then they can say they won't honor the warranty if their parts aren't used. Now I may be mistaken here, but the fact remains it has nothing to do with anti-trust issues, this is a warranty issue. Anti-trust laws protect against monopolizing a market and have nothing to do with how a company designs and honors its warranties, that's what Mag-Moss is for. You are going to have a seriously hard time defending this point, but I welcome the debate.

And finally with the arguement you seem to making that break systems should tolerate any pad that appears to fit is absurd. Engineers make six-figure salaries for a reason, and "eyeing" it doesn't cut it. The pads being used weren't engineered specifically for these calipers, and they obviously caused a problem. BMW didn't design the 1er to be a race-car, thus we have a street pad with our brakes. Now if we start seeing these problems with OEM set-ups, then there is a problem.

[professor]

would it be fair to say that at the moment the only verified fact we have is that aftermarket pads on the stock brake kit is a recipe for potential failure? as such, unless we have photographic evidence that a stock pad has led to similar results to the pistons and calipers, i doubt BMW will lose much sleep over any of this at all (and neither would brembo).

[m7ammed]

Originally Posted by esses

If it does not do that when non-oem pads are used there is a problem. "Buy OEM or don't stop," which is what your argument boils down to, is completely unacceptable.

I think if in the 2 cases this has happened to the ceramic inserts were with with Non OEM pads that would fit directly without the need for modifying then I would agree with you, but since they are not direct replacement for OEM parts I think your asking to much. The reasons I say this because a company designing a brake pad for this capliper would have engineeried it for example for 0% play, but if this modified by people (don't know how the modified it) then there is a chance that there is some % of play with the pad which might have caused the crack. I really hope you get where I'm going with this

again my question is has this failure happned to cars with OEM pads , or maybe Non OEM pad that were desgned to fit this caliper?

[onehungevo]

Are there any other problems or recalls I need to know about before I go though with purchasing a 1 series? Should I purchase an 09?

[cuizhuoyi01]

Originally Posted by onehungevo

Are there any other problems or recalls I need to know about before I go though with purchasing a 1 series? Should I purchase an 09?

I think 09 is same.

haven't see anyone has problem with stock pad.

[Yearofthe1]

Originally Posted by esses

If it does not do that when non-oem pads are used there is a problem. "Buy OEM or don't stop," which is what your argument boils down to, is completely unacceptable.

The difference is pads that are engineered to OEM specs and pads fabricated in some guys shop because they couldn't wait for the aftermarket to develop a properly engineered race-pad (no offense to the 135 racing pioneers :wink

Of course, once the 4yr/50,000 mile mark approaches, I'm sure there'll be plenty of properly engineered aftermarket pads to choose from. But the pads that were used in the 2 applications in question cannot be considered as such, thus this problem cannot be assumed to affect all 135's, at least not at this time. Again, this issue needs to be repeated in OEM set-ups before BMW will pay any significant attention or before 135 owners need to get up in arms about a potential recall.

[takahashi]

Originally Posted by professor

would it be fair to say that at the moment the only verified fact we have is that aftermarket pads on the stock brake kit is a recipe for potential failure? as such, unless we have photographic evidence that a stock pad has led to similar results to the pistons and calipers, i doubt BMW will lose much sleep over any of this at all (and neither would brembo).

Does anyone know what the OEM pads are?

I strongly suspect the pad that BMW Australia stock may be different from OEM from BMW America. And who would guarantee the same pad is use down the track.

There is so security if you tell me.

(I am now punching my calculator to see how much extra I need to repay if I have to upgrade to the performance brake... )

[WAY]

Taka, my car is now being measured for the AP Racing upgrade. I will tell you how much on email later! Lol. Actually I have already told you. If it fits, I will have 365mm slotted rotors with AP Racing 6 pot calipers. Best thing is, I can change the pads easily on the track without removing the calipers like the stupid Brembo setup!

[takahashi]

I am hearing $$$ at West Melbourne. Good on you.

You can't just change it with bare hand. I am always wanting to get a set of piston pusher to bring them back so a new/thicker pad fits....

You have 10 fingers I know but it is hard and near impossible to put a 4 pot back... 6 pot hmmmm.

Yes your set up is prob the same price as BMW upgrade. hmmm... you know I am a fucking major fan of AP racing caliper.

[cuizhuoyi01]

when you get the AP racing, please let me know will it fit with stock rim, i'm also fan of AP haha.

[AussieRacer]

Originally Posted by My135

"I believe it may be a combination of both high sustained heat with possible piston "knockback" that is causing this."

I belive the "knockback" theory and it is quite possible since the pad was not an exact fit to the OEM caliper and it might move/vibrate/hammering/knockback during hard braking. The unwanted movement combined with excess heat could damage the ceramic inserts.

FYI, knockback doesn't occur during braking, rather it occurs when no brake pressure (or not enough) is in the system, and the rotor movement (caused by tolerance play in the wheel bearings) causes the rotor to slap up against the pads, thereby pushing the pads and pistons back into the caliper (which has a fixed position relative to other brake bits).

Knockback is cured by:
1. using floating rotors, so rotor can stay relative to the caliper
2. using pressure residual valves in the system to maintain slight brake pressure up against the pads to resist knockback (most common solution)
3. reducing the free-play tolerance in the bearing (only done if there is excessive play)

[WAY]

Taka, Howard is now at Yarraville so it is a pain to get to compared to West Melbourne (or was it North Melb?).

Zhuoyi, are you in Melb? Happy for you to come down and see Howard with me. He is measuring to see if factory wheels will fit those brakes. If not, then I will only use my BBS.

[cuizhuoyi01]

Originally Posted by WAY

Taka, Howard is now at Yarraville so it is a pain to get to compared to West Melbourne (or was it North Melb?).

Zhuoyi, are you in Melb? Happy for you to come down and see Howard with me. He is measuring to see if factory wheels will fit those brakes. If not, then I will only use my BBS.

no mate,

i am in gold coast, luck you have BBS, I only has the stock one.:iono: