C&D: 2012 BMW 1M Coupe prototype drive

[MyCorvette]

When you want to make a car more advance than others, the most important factor is the platform and structure. You can always change the engine, the transmission, the suspenssion within the same generation car, but what you can't change is the platform. Just like the difference between 2011 135i and 2010 135i - both engine and transmission changed, suspenssion tweaked...but it is still considered to be 'the same level car'. Another example, fitting a Lambo V12 engine, Lambo suspenssion etc. into a Corolla won't make this Corolla become a Lambo level car. It's not because of the engine, transmission, suspension, it's the platform and structure strength that matters.

From business aspect, it must be admitted that the 1M that coming next year, is a measure that BMW try to seize out the residual value of the retiring E8x platform, just like what they have done to the Z4M several years ago. They are not going to start a heritage on this series (for example there is no M model for the current generation Z4, and I bet BMW won't do a M model for the next gen. 1 series). On the contrary, the essense of the M department lies in the M3 and M5, whose platforms and structures all have M model in mind during initial design, for many years and many generations. When you want to do something, plan ahead and do it right at the beginning; not bolting on fancy surrounding accessories and try to give customers illusion of 'I have done it right at the beginning'.

Not offense and don't want to start a fight, just want to share some opinions.

[Evan135]

Normally I would say you are right, but not this time. The 1 and 3 series use the same basic platform. You must not have realized this.

The 1M is a M3 front and rear subframe put in a 1 series for suspension. When tuned by M(shocks ,springs and sway bars) the handling could be more fun due to the shorter wheelbase. You can argue all day about the NA V-8 versus the turbo 6, they are diferent style of engines, but thinking the 1M will be less than the M3 in the handling department would be wrong. The structure is the same.

Many people on this sight, including me, have already updated their 1 series with many M3 suspension componets. That is how similar the 1 series and the M3 are. You may not like the turbo six and some do not, but the handling of the 1M should be even more fun than the current M3 due to the M1 having less weight and a shorter wheelbase.

BMW is smart and using all of the excellent suspension hardware from the current M3 while it can.

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by Evan135

Normally I would say you are right, but not this time. The 1 and 3 series use the same basic platform. You must not have realized this.

The 1M is a M3 front and rear subframe put in a 1 series for suspension. When tuned by M(shocks ,springs and sway bars) the handling could be more fun due to the shorter wheelbase. You can argue all day about the NA V-8 versus the turbo 6, they are diferent style of engines, but thinking the 1M will be less than the M3 in the handling department would be wrong. The structure is the same.

Many people on this sight, including me, have already updated their 1 series with many M3 suspension componets. That is how similar the 1 series and the M3 are. You may not like the turbo six and some do not, but the handling of the 1M should be even more fun than the current M3 due to the M1 having less weight and a shorter wheelbase.

BMW is smart and using all of the excellent suspension hardware from the current M3 while it can.

I can virtually guarantee you that the 1 MC will out handle the M3 stock for stock. In addition to the more compact dimensions, a few hundred pounds makes a HUGE difference.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

I can virtually guarantee you that the 1 MC will out handle the M3 stock for stock. In addition to the more compact dimensions, a few hundred pounds makes a HUGE difference.

Almost no track evidence would back this up. Both M Coupes feel fast but generally are quite sloppy when compared to the much more composed (and relatively boring) M3's. For Exhibit B see Porsche Cayman S vs M Coupe (or M Anything).

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by Evan135

Normally I would say you are right, but not this time. The 1 and 3 series use the same basic platform. You must not have realized this.

The 1M is a M3 front and rear subframe put in a 1 series for suspension. When tuned by M(shocks ,springs and sway bars) the handling could be more fun due to the shorter wheelbase. You can argue all day about the NA V-8 versus the turbo 6, they are diferent style of engines, but thinking the 1M will be less than the M3 in the handling department would be wrong. The structure is the same.

Many people on this sight, including me, have already updated their 1 series with many M3 suspension componets. That is how similar the 1 series and the M3 are. You may not like the turbo six and some do not, but the handling of the 1M should be even more fun than the current M3 due to the M1 having less weight and a shorter wheelbase.

BMW is smart and using all of the excellent suspension hardware from the current M3 while it can.

Wholeheartedly agree and was thinking that the whole time. I expect the handling capabilities to lie in between a base M3 and one with a Competition Package. That way BMW could coax M buyers to cough up another 3k. The 1M will clearly win that midrange acceleration battle.

[Evan135]

I have been reading a lot of the uninformed comments in this post and it is great to have a comment from someone that is not hung up by the car they currently own, but can appreciate the new 1M for the fun car it's composition has to provide. Thank you for your post.

I am going to loose a fortune when I trade my 2009 135, but this car is like a dream come true for me. Because I do not track the car, I prefer the turbo 6 torque and love the M3's handling. This car is the best of both worlds for me.

Anybody that does not want the 1M is great for me, less demand will mean I will get one for sure.

[MyCorvette]

Originally Posted by Evan135

Normally I would say you are right, but not this time. The 1 and 3 series use the same basic platform. You must not have realized this.

The 1M is a M3 front and rear subframe put in a 1 series for suspension. When tuned by M(shocks ,springs and sway bars) the handling could be more fun due to the shorter wheelbase. You can argue all day about the NA V-8 versus the turbo 6, they are diferent style of engines, but thinking the 1M will be less than the M3 in the handling department would be wrong. The structure is the same.

Many people on this sight, including me, have already updated their 1 series with many M3 suspension componets. That is how similar the 1 series and the M3 are. You may not like the turbo six and some do not, but the handling of the 1M should be even more fun than the current M3 due to the M1 having less weight and a shorter wheelbase.

BMW is smart and using all of the excellent suspension hardware from the current M3 while it can.

Cars are technical things, so let's look at some technical info. Here are the bodyshell structure and material list (1st pic) of E82. E82 did borrow some part from the E90/92, but not all. The meaning of 'borrow' is very vague, it can mean 'similar', or it can mean 'identical'. So if we take 'strictly identical' as the meaning (same part no. same welding procedure etc.), how many percent of E82 is shared with E90/92? - I know the answer but I can't disclose here since it's confidential, but I can show you the body shell material list of E92 (2nd pic) , and also the comparison between E82 and E92 (3rd pic).

Body strength, for example torsional rigidity, is a measure of the WHOLE body, not only subframes. E82 has very major difference in the side frames compared to E90/92. Also look at different steel grade they used.

Not only the steel grade will affect the structure rigidity, the shape, length will also greatly affect the rigidity.

I will not say the struture strength and chasis dynamics of the 1 coupe will be very comparable to the 3 coupe. They are products that has more than 2 years' gap, with diffferent research and design budget limit.

What I want later (apparantely not now since the product is still not officially published) is this same lists for the 1M.

[Evan135]

The bodies in white are different in materials and of course dimension. The larger the car the stronger the material required and more of it is typically used for hopefully similar strength. Look at the distance between the bracing behind the doors, width of door opening and the length of the front rails. You can see the extra distance in the 3. Since the 3 is heavier, longer, and wider it has to have this additional work to gain the required strength. Look at:

https://www.autosteel.org/AM/Templat...ENTFILEID=9275

Page 12, Materials in 1 series almost same strength as 3 series. Smaller dimensions between reinforcements could lead to higher strength? This article is about the X5 but references other bodies.

Both cars are well designed and neither has a problem with longitudal or torsional rigidity. Either given the same subframe and components should have similar results and the E82 has the benefit of lower weight and shorter wheelbase that the 3 does not.

[BMW86]

Originally Posted by Evan135

Normally I would say you are right, but not this time. The 1 and 3 series use the same basic platform. You must not have realized this.

The 1M is a M3 front and rear subframe put in a 1 series for suspension. When tuned by M(shocks ,springs and sway bars) the handling could be more fun due to the shorter wheelbase. You can argue all day about the NA V-8 versus the turbo 6, they are diferent style of engines, but thinking the 1M will be less than the M3 in the handling department would be wrong. The structure is the same.

Many people on this sight, including me, have already updated their 1 series with many M3 suspension componets. That is how similar the 1 series and the M3 are. You may not like the turbo six and some do not, but the handling of the 1M should be even more fun than the current M3 due to the M1 having less weight and a shorter wheelbase.

BMW is smart and using all of the excellent suspension hardware from the current M3 while it can.

+ 1 Very well said

Originally Posted by E82tt6

I can virtually guarantee you that the 1 MC will out handle the M3 stock for stock. In addition to the more compact dimensions, a few hundred pounds makes a HUGE difference.

+ 1 I agree with you

[MyCorvette]

Originally Posted by Evan135

The bodies in white are different in materials and of course dimension. The larger the car the stronger the material required and more of it is typically used for hopefully similar strength. Look at the distance between the bracing behind the doors, width of door opening and the length of the front rails. You can see the extra distance in the 3. Since the 3 is heavier, longer, and wider it has to have this additional work to gain the required strength. Look at:

https://www.autosteel.org/AM/Templat...ENTFILEID=9275

Page 12, Materials in 1 series almost same strength as 3 series. Smaller dimensions between reinforcements could lead to higher strength? This article is about the X5 but references other bodies.

Both cars are well designed and neither has a problem with longitudal or torsional rigidity. Either given the same subframe and components should have similar results and the E82 has the benefit of lower weight and shorter wheelbase that the 3 does not.

First thanks for the info provided.

The steel strength is only a necessary condition for rigidity, not sufficient. What I concern most is that the 1M is facing competitors in year 2010, not something comes from 2004 or 2007. M3 is fine because it was designed in 2006 and handle competitors in 2007, yes we know the current M3 is outdated but it will soon be replaced by a new generation and currently it is sold in discount; Another side, it seems that limited to its platform, the new 1M still uses the strength standard of several years ago, but tries to sell at msrp.

Even E82 platform can simulate the strength of E92, it will still be outdated in 2011. E92 is weaker than E90, even we look at the stronger E90, it only has the torsional rigidity of 22500nm/deg, but Mini Cooper already got 24500nm/deg many years ago, Mazda RX-8 has 30000nm/deg, VW GTI has 25000nm/deg. So you can see how far the E82 has been behind the latest trend.

[Future M1 owner]

Originally Posted by felixcat

. M3 is fine because it was designed in 2006 and handle competitors in 2007, yes we know the current M3 is outdated

You're not serious, are you?

[MyCorvette]

Originally Posted by Future M1 owner

You're not serious, are you?

Coyote 5.0L V8
Output: 412hp, 390lb-ft
CR: 11:1
Weight: 195kg
17/25mpg (Mustang GT)

S65B40 4.0L V8
Output: 414hp, 295lb-ft
CR: 12:1
Weight: 202kg
16/24mpg

So, you tell me?

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by felixcat

Coyote 5.0L V8
Output: 412hp, 390lb-ft
CR: 11:1
Weight: 195kg
17/25mpg (Mustang GT)

S65B40 4.0L V8
Output: 414hp, 295lb-ft
CR: 12:1
Weight: 202kg
16/24mpg

So, you tell me?

Great, you just showed BMW makes the same power with 1.0 less liters.

[MyCorvette]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Great, you just showed BMW makes the same power with 1.0 less liters.

Why care about the liter displacement?

For consumer, engine is like a black box. I only care how heavy it is, how many gas it consumes and how many energy it outputs. I really don't care about internally how it works and how many liters of air it takes to burn the fuel per stroke.

Think about this: the engine is lighter, burns less fuel and generate larger hp and torque, won't you be more satisfied?

[MyCorvette]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Great, you just showed BMW makes the same power with 1.0 less liters.

Also the coyote's output hp is underrated by ford. Dyno test shows that it outputs about 430-440hp at peak.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by felixcat

For consumer, engine is like a black box.

Luckily BMW M-buyers are enthusiasts, not everyday consumers.



Go buy your Ford Mustang and be gone.

Have fun with your car that doesn't have a rear independent suspension. Talk about outdated.

[PyratOne]

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Great, you just showed BMW makes the same power with 1.0 less liters.

The Mustang is a bit under-rated, it puts down ~395 to the wheels, don't the E90 M3s only put down 360 or so? That'd make them near equal in power/liter, with the Ford having more torque, and a lower redline.

Either way, hp/liter is a bit irrelevant when the Ford engine makes more power, more torque throughout the rev range, and is more fuel efficient (in a heavier, less aerodynamic car). Results > HP/Liter.

Not knocking the S65. I love it, it's an awesome motor. I'd obviously take an E92 M3 over a Mustang. I'm just saying that it's no longer cutting-edge, and that there are other engines that equal it.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

The Mustang is a bit under-rated, it puts down ~395 to the wheels, don't the E90 M3s only put down 360 or so? That'd make them near equal in power/liter, with the Ford having more torque, and a lower redline.

Either way, hp/liter is a bit irrelevant when the Ford engine makes more power, more torque throughout the rev range, and is more fuel efficient (in a heavier, less aerodynamic car). Results > HP/Liter.

Not knocking the S65. I love it, it's an awesome motor. I'd obviously take an E92 M3 over a Mustang. I'm just saying that it's no longer cutting-edge, and that there are other engines that equal it.

+1. Both the S65 and 5.0 are quite marvelous.

[MyCorvette]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Luckily BMW M-buyers are enthusiasts, not everyday consumers.



Go buy your Ford Mustang and be gone.

Have fun with your car that doesn't have a rear independent suspension. Talk about outdated.

Numbers won't lie. You must admit the technology advance of the coyote engine.

Live axle sounds horrible at the beginning, but look at the lap time, the lateral grip etc. Once again, as a customer I only care how the car handles and what is its performance, I don't care how it internally operates or functioning to achieve that performance. I am not saying Mustang will out perform M3 while doing autox, I am just reminding you to think about this: do you get as much as what you pay? Actually we are just talking about engine, not the whole car.

I am not saying just simple then it will be the best. Two requirements: 1. it's simple; 2. it need to be work.

I am not a 'fan boy' of any brand and factory. I am a very objective person - I only concern what result the product delivers, what is its performance.

[mrcardio]

Judging by lap times the 335i handles a bit better than the 135i. The 335i weighs about 200lbs more doesn't it? About every review I've read regarding the 135i says it under steers way too much and isn't much of a track car.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...6e85e5770.html

As far as this new 1M I'm almost certain it will be rocking the old n54 with a tune and 6 MT (MAN pedal) only. Car and Driver isn’t the only ones to mention that the 1M is using the n54 so I’m not sure why this is such a surprise for many as it’s used in the newish 335is as well. If the information was coming from MT or Edmunds I’d be worried but C&D has a decent track record by comparison. If the Junior M does start at 45k I doubt it would have trouble moving off the lots. I’d consider one if I wasn’t worried about the infamous fuel pump issues. I’ll probably just grow a mullet and buy a 5.0 instead. I optioned one out last night with 3.71 gears / Brembos / NAV etc and was right at 40k