1er coupe U.S. price point???

[Genericuser1]

I guess we'll find out next year. If they price it 2k below the 335 they won't be selling many of them.

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by onehots2k

Very well written but you seem to overlook one thing. We do not know what is BMW's intention for the 135i. It could just be a space filler to justify their benchmark(the 3series) going up so high in price. We do not know if they want these cars all over the place. The ball is in their court. They arent stupid. They are the BEST IMO at marketing. If they start it out at 36k, its because they know exactly what they are doing. My .02

True, BMW is great at marketing and building a brand, but they haven't been perfect. Realistically there's very little upside to starting the 135i at 36K+, even as a space filler. There are some solid justifications for this; most are based on the ready availability of truly viable competition (something that forced the 335i into existence in the first place). Of course there are going to be fewer 135i's on the road than the base model, but judging from BMW's marketing strategy to date it doesn't appear as if they want the 135i to be a rare sighting on American roads.

Mpower has already addressed the niche aspect. Too few customers to bother tooling up for the 135i.

For guys like me, who were originally going to pony up for the 335i but don't really need the size and gizmos, the 135i is a consummate no-brainer. Price it too high and perhaps I go back to buying the higher-margin 335i, but then again perhaps I decide to compromise and Infiniti really wants to sell me a G37S (our local dealer is a gem). Under no circumstances would I consider the 128i/328i. In this scenario, the best BMW can hope for is a wash.

Then we have the buyer, probably somewhat younger, who is willing to stretch the budget for a more upscale performance experience. The 335i is not an option due to price, and the slower 128i/328i aren't even being considered. If the 135i is priced out for this demo, they have nowhere to go either up or down the model line, and out the door they go to any number of fast cars priced in the mid-30's. Net loss for BMW.

There are a gazillion scenarios that could play out but the basics remain the same: The 135i is part of an entry level model line and will be described that way in every review on the planet. The 1-series is designed to generate sales, not enthusiast lust like the ///M models. It has very capable competition that is aggressively marketed and attractively priced. Customers are not going to cough up the usual "BMW premium" for a base model regardless of the drivetrain, and if BMW wants its own version of the SHO sitting around on dealers' lots then that's their prerogative. I just don't think that's their intent.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by theslik1

True, BMW is great at marketing and building a brand, but they haven't been perfect. Realistically there's very little upside to starting the 135i at 36K+, even as a space filler. There are some solid justifications for this; most are based on the ready availability of truly viable competition (something that forced the 335i into existence in the first place). Of course there are going to be fewer 135i's on the road than the base model, but judging from BMW's marketing strategy to date it doesn't appear as if they want the 135i to be a rare sighting on American roads.

Mpower has already addressed the niche aspect. Too few customers to bother tooling up for the 135i.

For guys like me, who were originally going to pony up for the 335i but don't really need the size and gizmos, the 135i is a consummate no-brainer. Price it too high and perhaps I go back to buying the higher-margin 335i, but then again perhaps I decide to compromise and Infiniti really wants to sell me a G37S (our local dealer is a gem). Under no circumstances would I consider the 128i/328i. In this scenario, the best BMW can hope for is a wash.

Then we have the buyer, probably somewhat younger, who is willing to stretch the budget for a more upscale performance experience. The 335i is not an option due to price, and the slower 128i/328i aren't even being considered. If the 135i is priced out for this demo, they have nowhere to go either up or down the model line, and out the door they go to any number of fast cars priced in the mid-30's. Net loss for BMW.

There are a gazillion scenarios that could play out but the basics remain the same: The 135i is part of an entry level model line and will be described that way in every review on the planet. The 1-series is designed to generate sales, not enthusiast lust like the ///M models. It has very capable competition that is aggressively marketed and attractively priced. Customers are not going to cough up the usual "BMW premium" for a base model regardless of the drivetrain, and if BMW wants its own version of the SHO sitting around on dealers' lots then that's their prerogative. I just don't think that's their intent.

I hope your right in that not being there intent. For my sake, I do. I have so much invested so much time into this!

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by theslik1

True, BMW is great at marketing and building a brand, but they haven't been perfect. Realistically there's very little upside to starting the 135i at 36K+, even as a space filler. There are some solid justifications for this; most are based on the ready availability of truly viable competition (something that forced the 335i into existence in the first place). Of course there are going to be fewer 135i's on the road than the base model, but judging from BMW's marketing strategy to date it doesn't appear as if they want the 135i to be a rare sighting on American roads.

Mpower has already addressed the niche aspect. Too few customers to bother tooling up for the 135i.

For guys like me, who were originally going to pony up for the 335i but don't really need the size and gizmos, the 135i is a consummate no-brainer. Price it too high and perhaps I go back to buying the higher-margin 335i, but then again perhaps I decide to compromise and Infiniti really wants to sell me a G37S (our local dealer is a gem). Under no circumstances would I consider the 128i/328i. In this scenario, the best BMW can hope for is a wash.

Then we have the buyer, probably somewhat younger, who is willing to stretch the budget for a more upscale performance experience. The 335i is not an option due to price, and the slower 128i/328i aren't even being considered. If the 135i is priced out for this demo, they have nowhere to go either up or down the model line, and out the door they go to any number of fast cars priced in the mid-30's. Net loss for BMW.

There are a gazillion scenarios that could play out but the basics remain the same: The 135i is part of an entry level model line and will be described that way in every review on the planet. The 1-series is designed to generate sales, not enthusiast lust like the ///M models. It has very capable competition that is aggressively marketed and attractively priced. Customers are not going to cough up the usual "BMW premium" for a base model regardless of the drivetrain, and if BMW wants its own version of the SHO sitting around on dealers' lots then that's their prerogative. I just don't think that's their intent.

Another good and very rational post. As much as I believe that the 135i will be at ~$36K, you and others have definitely provided much food for thought.

At this rate I should weigh about 400lbs by the time the 135i comes out. Geez... then I won't even fit inside one.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by onehots2k

I hope your right in that not being there intent. For my sake, I do. I have so much invested so much time into this!

Yeah... if BMW was paying for our time on this forum we could probably get a 135i for free! :biggrin:

[135i]

For $35k+ a slightly used '07 335i becomes a much more appealing option. I put a thousand dollar deposit to be #2 on the waiting list at my dealership for the 135i...if the price is substantially more than 35K,then hello used 335i coupe.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by onehots2k

Very well written but you seem to overlook one thing. We do not know what is BMW's intention for the 135i. It could just be a space filler to justify their benchmark(the 3series) going up so high in price. We do not know if they want these cars all over the place. The ball is in their court. They arent stupid. They are the BEST IMO at marketing. If they start it out at 36k, its because they know exactly what they are doing. My .02

I appreciate the comment and what I was trying to do was explain how realistically only one marketing intention will work for the 135i. The car is what the car is. We already know what the car will have and what it looks like and what kind of features, etc. What is clear in my mind is that the only way this car makes much sense to me is if they intend it to be an entry-level sports coupe meant to lure people away from the front-wheel drive hot hatches, Subaru WRXs, and other sports cars like the Honda S2000 and Infiniti G37 Coupe. Remember, that's what the 1er was created to do. It's first iteration wasnt a five-door hatch by mistake. The 1er was created to be the starting point for budget-minded buyers to experience rear-wheel drive dynamics in something more practical than a two-seat sports car.

In any other marketing approach, all you end up with is pricing that gets dangerously close to 335i pricing making the car nearly totally useless. The only way you could price a 1er coupe at near-335i pricing is if it was a true M Car. But it isnt. The 135i carries a mass-produced engine with no limited-slip diff.

Ive said it before, and I'll say it again, the selling-point of this car for nearly 80 percent of the people here is value. If you dont take a "value" marketing approach, you lose a substantial about of buyers who wont consider the 128i anyway.

Originally Posted by theslik1

True, BMW is great at marketing and building a brand, but they haven't been perfect. Realistically there's very little upside to starting the 135i at 36K+, even as a space filler. There are some solid justifications for this; most are based on the ready availability of truly viable competition (something that forced the 335i into existence in the first place). Of course there are going to be fewer 135i's on the road than the base model, but judging from BMW's marketing strategy to date it doesn't appear as if they want the 135i to be a rare sighting on American roads.

Mpower has already addressed the niche aspect. Too few customers to bother tooling up for the 135i.

For guys like me, who were originally going to pony up for the 335i but don't really need the size and gizmos, the 135i is a consummate no-brainer. Price it too high and perhaps I go back to buying the higher-margin 335i, but then again perhaps I decide to compromise and Infiniti really wants to sell me a G37S (our local dealer is a gem). Under no circumstances would I consider the 128i/328i. In this scenario, the best BMW can hope for is a wash.

Then we have the buyer, probably somewhat younger, who is willing to stretch the budget for a more upscale performance experience. The 335i is not an option due to price, and the slower 128i/328i aren't even being considered. If the 135i is priced out for this demo, they have nowhere to go either up or down the model line, and out the door they go to any number of fast cars priced in the mid-30's. Net loss for BMW.

There are a gazillion scenarios that could play out but the basics remain the same: The 135i is part of an entry level model line and will be described that way in every review on the planet. The 1-series is designed to generate sales, not enthusiast lust like the ///M models. It has very capable competition that is aggressively marketed and attractively priced. Customers are not going to cough up the usual "BMW premium" for a base model regardless of the drivetrain, and if BMW wants its own version of the SHO sitting around on dealers' lots then that's their prerogative. I just don't think that's their intent.

Very well stated and I agree with all of it. The key phrase that everyone has to remember is entry level. This is a bottom-of-the-line BMW. You can not go any lower; there is no 0 Series. You can not expect people to pay through the nose for an entry-level model when there are plenty of performance equivalents out there for a lot less money.

[ZweierCoupe]

Originally Posted by MPower

While both the Mitsubishi Evolution and Subaru WRX STi have two more doors and all-wheel drive, there is no question that they are performance equivalents that are targeting this sort of audience looking for a "budget" performance car.

You just gave two very good reasons for why both the cars you mentioned are absolutely not a competitor to the BMW 135i:

(1) Styling - a two-door coupé is not anything like a four-door sedan. And four-door cars are generally not associated with the term "sporty", with the possible exception of an Audi RS4, BMW M5, or a Mercedes AMG. Aside from that, both the Evo and WRX have such incredible oversized spoilers, as if their owners were subliminally shouting "hey, I haven't grown up yet, and I take my car to the track every weekend". Now compare the tiny and subtle little spoiler at the back edge of the 135i with those Japanese whale whoppers (do the owners of these cars possibly think some girls might mistake them for a Porsche Carerra Turbo or GT2??) and you'll understand why very few people will cross-shop these cars with the 135i. That is, the professional person who is attracted to the BMW 135i, and may consider getting one, will hardly ever think to himself something like "gee, maybe I should just get that four-door Japanese car with a huge whopper spoiler instead". I'm not entirely sure why, but out in California I noticed that these type of Japanese cars, with oversized spoilers, seem most popular amongst Vietnamese, Filipinos, and some Mexicans.

(2) Budget Performance - The words "budget" and BMW simply don't go together, even when compared to Porsche, for in that context BMWs would be considered reasonable and Porsches way overpriced. I don't think BMW tries to cater to the budget seeking community. The 135i needs to maintain a certain perception of exclusivity, otherwise the necessary halo effect vis à vis the 128i would become diluted.

Of course you left out one of the most important ingredients in this mix, which many car buyers really do care about: brand image. This concept is particularly pronounced in the watch industry and explains why an Omega will cost more than a Tissot, even though there's not that much of a difference and both are oned by the Swatch Group. Both Subaru and Mitsubishi, as far as their brand values are concerned, are considered second-rate in a Japanese context, behind Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. That's mainly because these are companies aren't big enough. Subaru is within the GM orbit, and Mitsubishi had an alliance of sorts with DaimlerBenz, until they became a burden, as did Chrysler. Who knows if these companies will still be around as car manufacturers in a decade? Even Nissan screwed up so badly a few years ago that they became part of the Renault alliance.

Brand image is not just a matter of market positioning through advertising. In the case of the German premium brands (Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche), it also entails a long heritage of many decades, including racing triumphs, a dedication to technical innovation (as opposed to being copycats) and having their own museums. Neither the upstart Infiniti, Lexus, nor Acura brands can possibly have this type of infrastructure, and all three are clearly derivative brands in two ways: (1) derivative of their respective parent companies, Nissan, Toyota, and Honda, which probably bought the new brand name from one of those trademark name companies that also cater to the pharmaceutical industry, to give their pills new names; and (2) derivative especially of BMW and Mercedes, as I've seen in their "borrowed" styling cues and heard almost ad nauseam in their television ads over the years, often incorporating the phrase elements "...than a BMW..." or "...compared to a BMW..." somewhere along the way. As they say, imitation is flattery.

The average car aficionado tends to see through all this and is thus posed with the question: Do I want to pay a little extra for the original -- the real thing -- or am I content with a derivative? For some the issue is a matter of personal self-esteem, while others could care less.

Lastly, there is the concept of "family flagship" within the context of the brand's image association; that is, an Audi car will likely share some elements and some resemblance with the flagship S8, a BMW with the M6, a Mercedes with an AMG 65, and a Porsche with a GT. All these flagship models get a hugely disproportionate amount of attention in the motoring press relative to their actual sales numbers or sales dollars because they fulfill the functions of associational anchors or leaders. What do the top Japanese brands, not to even mention Mitsubishi or Subaru, offer in this regard, aside from a mild copy of an S-Class or A8?

Originally Posted by MPower

...the comment that BMW is targeting "the older guy who, more than 30 years ago, owned or lusted after a 2002, and also the kid with fond memories of riding in his dad's 2002 way back then" suggests a market that is so small that to specifically target that audience would only lead to 60 year old retired fishermen who will go towards the cheaper 128i anyway.

Well, of course they'll want to make sure to target this group (obviously), but that's not to say that BMW isn't targeting many other groups. For instance, what about the many people who never had a chance to know the 2002 but are now convinced, thanks to BMW cleverly linking the 135i to it, that it must have been something novel or special at the time (as the movie clip you linked to makes the case for) and therefore, so must the 135i also be a new trend setter or classic (the hidden message in this linkage to the 2002)?

But let's look at the small group of former 2002 owners: they probably went to own other BMW cars or moved on to Porsche, are close to retirement, and have enough money to buy a 135i if it captivates their emotions. At least they'll be enticed to take a test drive, if only to compare how the driving experience is different to the 2002. Moreover, their choice in automobile may hold sway amongst a larger peer group. I doubt many of them are fishermen, unless you mean those marlin sport fishers in power boats in southern Florida.

Originally Posted by MPower

...There could be a reasonable argument made that the 335i would represent a better value than the 135i because of its a) style b) luxury and c) size.

By the time the 135i goes on sale, the 335i will have gone up in price, compared to its current level. The factors you mentioned (style, luxury, and size) will indeed appeal to many people who care less about high performance and handling, and their perception of value will compel them to get the 335i instead. So what? No problem. I suppose many women would fall into this group. Well they can buy the 335i instead, or mabe get the 1-series cabrio. Obviously there will be cannabilization going on, that's understood, but the point is for the car manufacturer to cover as many niche segments as possible.

The bottom line is, that many people seeking a premium brand with heritage will have their own, personal perception of what constitutes "value" within the somewhat skewed context of such premium brands. If performance, handling, power, technological sophistication, and brand cachet are paramount, the 135i purchaser will know he's getting great value compared to the new Cayman S, which would cost him about $30K more.

So, as I said before, there is no real competitor to the 135i, within its specific market niche. In summary, I believe that I've backed up my original contention, that the 135i will definitely not start at under $36K but also not go above $40K (depending on added standard features or equipment). Between those price points there's a bell-shaped curve associated with probabilities, and my hunch is that its peak will be between $37K and $38K.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

You just gave two very good reasons for why both the cars you mentioned are absolutely not a competitor to the BMW 135i:

(1) Styling - a two-door coupé is not anything like a four-door sedan. And four-door cars are generally not associated with the term "sporty", with the possible exception of an Audi RS4, BMW M5, or a Merceeds AMG. Aside from that, both the Evo and WRX have such incredible oversized spoilers, as if their owners were subliminally shouting "hey, I haven't grown up yet, and I take my car to the track every weekend". Now compare the tiny and subtle little spoiler at the back edge of the 135i with those Japanese whale whoppers (do the owners of these cars possibly think some girls might mistake them for a Porsche Carerra Turbo or GT2??) and you'll understand why very few people will cross-shop these cars with the 135i. That is, the professional person who is attracted to the BMW 135i, and may consider getting one, will hardly ever think to himself something like "gee, maybe I should just get that four-door Japanese car with a huge whopper spoiler instead". I'm not entirely sure why, but out in California I noticed that these type of Japanese cars, with oversized spoilers, seem most popular amongst Vietnamese, Filipinos, and some Mexicans.

(2) Budget Performance - The words "budget" and BMW simply don't go together, even when compared to Porsche, for in that context BMWs would be considered reasonable and Porsches way overpriced. I don't think BMW tries to cater to the budget seeking community. The 135i needs to maintain a certain perception of exclusivity, otherwise the necessary halo effect vis à vis the 128i would become diluted.

Of course you left out one of the most important ingredients in this mix, which many car buyers really do care about: brand image. This concept is particularly pronounced in the watch industry and explains why an Omega will cost more than a Tissot, even though there's not that much of a difference and both are oned by the Swatch Group. Both Subaru and Mitsubishi, as far as their brand values are concerned, are considered second-rate in a Japanese context, behind Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. That's mainly because these are companies aren't big enough. Subaru is within the GM orbit, and Mitsubishi had an alliance of sorts with DaimlerBenz, until they became a burden, as did Chrysler. Who knows if these companies will still be around as car manufacturers in a decade? Even Nissan screwed up so bad years ago that they became part of the Renault alliance.

Brand image is not just a matter of market positioning through advertising. In the case of the German premium brands (Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche), it also entails a long heritage of many decades, including racing triumphs, a dedication to technical innovation (as opposed to being copycats) and their own museums. Neither the upstart Infiniti, Lexus, nor Acura brands can possibly have this type of infrastructure, and both are clearly derivative brands in two ways: (1) derivative of their respective parent companies, which probably bought the name from one of those trademark name companies that also cater to the pharmaceutical industry, to give their pills new names; and (2) derivative especially of BMW and Mercedes, as I've seen in their "borrowed" styling cues and heard almost ad nauseam in their television ads over the years, often incorporating the phrase elements "...than a BMW..." or "...compared to a BMW..." somewhere along the way. As they say, imitation is flattery.

The average car aficionado tends to see through all this and is thus posed with the question: Do I want to pay a little extra for the original -- the real thing -- or am I content with a derivative? For some the issue is a matter of personal self-esteem, while others could care less.

Lastly, there is the concept of "family flagship" within the context of the brand's image association; that is, an Audi car will likely share some elements and some resemblance with the flagship S8, a BMW with the M6, a Mercedes with an AMG 65, and a Porsche with a GT. All these flagship models get a hugely disproportionate amount of attention in the motoring press relative to their actual sales numbers or sales dollars because they fulfill the functions of associational anchors or leaders. What do the top Japanese brands, not to even mention Mitsubishi or Subaru, offer in this regard, aside from a mild copy of an S-Class or A8?



Well, of course they'll want to make sure to target this group (obviously), but that's not to say that BMW isn't targeting many other groups. For instance, what about the many people who never had a chance to know the 2002 but are now convinced, thanks to BMW cleverly linking the 135i to it, that it must have been something novel or special at the time (as the movie clip you linked to makes the case for) and therefore so must the 135i also be a new trend setter or classic (the hidden message in this linkage to the 2002)?

But let's look at the small group of former 2002 owners: they probably went to own other BMW cars or moved on to Porsche, are close to retirement, and have enough money to buy a 135i if it captivates their emotions. At least they'll be enticed to take a test drive, if only to compare how the driving experience is different to the 2002. Moreover, their choice in automobile may hold sway amongst a larger peer group. I doubt many of them are fishermen, unless you mean those marlin sport fishers in power boats in southern Florida.



By the time the 135i goes on sale, the 335i will have gone up in price, compared to its current level. The factors you mentioned (style, luxury, and size) will indeed appeal to many people who care less about high performance and handling, and their perception of value will compel them to get the 335i instead. So what? No problem. I suppose many women would fall into this group. Well they can buy the 335i instead, or mabe get the 1-series cabrio. Obviously there will be cannabilization going on, that's understood, but the point is for the car manufacturer to cover as many niche segments as possible.

The bottom line is, that many people seeking a premium brand with heritage will have their own, personal perception of what constitutes "value" within the somewhat skewed context of such premium brands. If performance, handling, power, technological sophistication, and brand cachet are paramount, the 135i purchaser will know he's getting great value compared to the new Cayman S, which would cost him about $30K more.

So, as I said before, there is no real competitor to the 135i, within its specific market niche. In summary, I believe that I've backed up my original contention, that the 135i will definitely not start at under $36K but also not go above $40K (depending on added standard features or equipment). Between that there's a bell-shaped curve associated with probabilities, and my hunch is that this peak will be between $37K and $38K.

What you said made perfect sense except the part about the EVO and STI drivers. That might be the demographic over in Cali but not elsewhere. I know at least 3 people that are not of the above mentioned ethnic group and they are really considering the 135i. But reading your posts I do look at things a bit differently now.

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

So, as I said before, there is no real competitor to the 135i, within its specific market niche.

You speak in absolutes with which I have to respectfully disagree. The problem is that you don't seem to recognize what may or may not compete within the 135i's segment in the U.S. market. Trust me, it won't exist in a marketing vacuum. You can be quite certain that competitors already have the 135i firmly in their crosshairs. Go to E90post and observe how much cross-pollination exists between E9x drivers and "others", which include EVO, STi, GTO, GTI, G35 drivers, etc. The idea that the 135i won't be cross-shopped against Mitsubishi ,Subaru, Infiniti, VW, et al is patently ludicrous. The key phrase here is entry level. Take a good look; you're going to be seeing it again and again in reference to the 1-series and that is going to set the price expectations for the entire model line. As much as BMW would love to tack their usual "heritage premium" on the 1, entry level will put the kibosh on that to at least some degree.

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

In summary, I believe that I've backed up my original contention, that the 135i will definitely not start at under $36K but also not go above $40K (depending on added standard features or equipment). Between that there's a bell-shaped curve associated with probabilities, and my hunch is that this peak will be between $37K and $38K.

I don't think you've backed anything up solidly, but unfortunately I do agree it's a 50:50 shot that BMW will screw this up and price the 135i at that level.

By the way, I enjoy the debate. :smile:

[bavarianbutcher]

You post a valid argument. I think what alot of people are disagreeing with you here is that youre saying since the 135i has no other cars really in its class, that that gives BMW the notion to drive the pricing up. I know its a "premium" brand, but after seeing numerous ads (and you know youve seen them too) about how this new vehicle is going to be full of heritage, yet still all new, and also a main message that it will in fact be "affordable", gives me, along with many other hopeful possible buyers, the "finger cross" that this thing is gona be around 35k. I understand you wanting people to wake up and smell the coffee but I would suggest being a bit more optimistic. Just as bmw may think they should charge extra because its unique and people will pay more for it because theres nothing like it, they may also see that a lower price could help push the brand into new territories reaping even more profits and drawing people from a different light to the brand just as the 2002 was sent here to do back in 1968.

[bavarianbutcher]

and already another "premium" follows suit.

[ZweierCoupe]

Originally Posted by bavarianbutcher

I think what alot of people are disagreeing with you here is that youre saying since the 135i has no other cars really in its class, that that gives BMW the notion to drive the pricing up.

No, what I've been saying is that for this reason BMW doesn't need to -- and would be foolish to -- DISCOUNT (and NOT "drive the pricing up", as you incorrectly paraphrase it) the price to an even lower level than what seems reasonable in an American context (at least $36K) and to an even lower level than what its employees have to pay before taxes, which is significantly less than what people in other countries have to pay with applicable taxes.

They can elevate the base price from the reasonable level already derived in detail by including additional options as standard features for the US versions, but that's not quite the same thing because the point of reference (the version available in Germany) then changes. If production at the Leipzig plant were to be at maximum capacity and the 1-series car becomes waitlisted for months, with the 135i making up a higher percentage of the mix than their internal projections, one can barely claim that BMW would be hurting themselves if most Americans would want their 135i cars with leather anyway, rather than fabric, and BMW then decided to just include the leather as standard while at the same time enhancing this car's appeal. You could almost see it as doing a favor to the consumer to not even burden him with the choice of getting leather or not. Removing the possibility of getting it in fabric also removes an element of "cheapness" from the association one makes.

Apparently a bunch of people contributing in this forum had worked themself into a trance of sorts and convinced themselves that the 135i would also be "entry level" without even bothering to see what the price for it is in Germany or what Audi and Volkswagen are charging for their 3.2 liter 250 horsepower cars in the US market. Entry level is 128i, and 135i is a different animal.

[larryn]

Zweier.. the best you can do is guess, and say that the people in this country should be paying more.. Whatever... We've heard you countless times. I don't understand the reason or need of yours to drone on and on about it.

Most people think you are way off base, myself included. Again, these are guesses as well, but a majority, nonethelesss.

If you are right, you can gloat at your foresight, while you watch the majority of us buy a competitior's car. At least you'll be happy, I think, as BMW bleeds away profits.

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

Apparently a bunch of people contributing in this forum had worked themself into a trance of sorts and convinced themselves that the 135i would also be "entry level" without even bothering to see what the price for it is in Germany or what Audi and Volkswagen are charging for their 3.2 liter 250 horsepower cars in the US market. Entry level is 128i, and 135i is a different animal.

Well, ok then. You have quite a flair for the totally irrelevant. BMW cannot charge Audi prices in our market or they would have been doing so long ago. It matters not one whit to an American customer what a Bimmer retails for in Germany or anywhere else outside the U.S. We are BMW's largest market and that, coupled with lower taxes, is why we expect and enjoy lower MSRP than the rest of the world. That "1" in front of the "35i" defines the car as entry level in the U.S. whether BMW (or you) chooses to acknowledge that or not. That's how the car is going to be classed and reviewed by the American automotive press, and that's how the car is going to be seen by the buying public. Perception is key in this case, and to beat a dead horse, buyers won't care how the rest of the world perceives the 1-series. Also, the able competition is not going to simply give BMW a pass and let them occupy a special "BMW-only" market niche in this segment. You continue to assume a market vacuum that, if it indeed exists, won't exist very long.

I personally haven't entranced myself that BMW will be even remotely savvy about pricing...I'm simply saying (and I believe the market will bear out) that they will be punished if they choose to get too upwardly aggressive on the price, on a model that has not yet made its bones in the U.S. market.

[atr_hugo]

I agree with you Larry - I suspect that with the dollars continued slide against the Euro, prices will go up across the board. North America is a critical market to the German manufacturers. To be honest with you, BMW shipped some pretty crummy product here in the 80s and early 90s. One of the worst cars I have ever driven was a BMW 528e, not quite as bad as my sister's AMC Gremlin though. ; -)

Regardless of ZweierCoupe's pontification on the holiness of the BMW badge, he's correct about the economics of the situation. I suspect that we ARE looking at a $37K starting price for the 135i. But that is based on the content that will be standard for the US market, M-Aerodynamics, Sport Package (not the M-Sport which will probably be a separate option), Leatherette interior (no cloth option), Adaptive Xenon headlights.

I would anticiapte that the 135i will be somewhere between 82 and 85% of the price of a comparably equipped 335i (and I believe I placed that somewhere in this thread already). And prior to any potential price increase that price would have been ~ $34,500. So what's a 7% bump do to the price when applied to my guesstimate? Hmmmm, $36,915. That about right, ZweierCoupe? ; -)

ZweierCoupe is also correct that people do tie their self-esteem to the products they buy but most of the people that do that tend to be shallow and very uninteresting. Beautiful maybe, but superficial. I'd rather meet a man wearing an Eberhard than a Rolex; I'd rather spend time with someone that knows more about Nuvolari than Zaino.

From my perspective - and I believe I've stated this before - if this car comes in at least $20K under the Cayman S and can deliver 85% of the road feel and fluidity of a Cayman S, I'll buy it. But as the price of the 135i goes towards the Cayman S and/or the driving experience of the 135i diverges from the Cayman S - I'll buy the Porsche.

One of the great things about living in the US is the unparalleled freedom to choose and a surfeit of choices to choose among. ; -)

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

... I'm not entirely sure why, but out in California I noticed that these type of Japanese cars, with oversized spoilers, seem most popular amongst Vietnamese, Filipinos, and some Mexicans...

I'm calling :bsn that racist statement. You had some of my attention prior to that. But not anymore.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by mikeo

I'm calling :bsn that racist statement. You had some of my attention prior to that. But not anymore.

Although I'm agreement with most of ZweierCoupe's assertions regarding the 1er coupe, I have to say that he has some misconceptions about America and has been a little too prone to stereotyping it's people and slamming it's manufacturers. I won't even bother getting into his statements regarding the Japanese manufacturers. I would certainly appreciate a little more diplomacy and tact in the future. YMMV.

[ibeam81]

Over 15,000!!! At this rate the server is going to implode.

[brfbmw128i]

Originally Posted by mikeo

I'm calling :bsn that racist statement. You had some of my attention prior to that. But not anymore.

i dont condon racism by any means, but i believe his statement to be more of a generalization. Since i am from california i would say i have to agree with him.

[theslik1]

Originally Posted by ibeam81

Although I'm agreement with most of ZweierCoupe's assertions regarding the 1er coupe, I have to say that he has some misconceptions about America and has been a little too prone to stereotyping it's people and slamming it's manufacturers. I won't even bother getting into his statements regarding the Japanese manufacturers. I would certainly appreciate a little more diplomacy and tact in the future. YMMV.

Along those lines, I just noticed this little gem:

Originally Posted by ZweierCoupe

Brand image is not just a matter of market positioning through advertising. In the case of the German premium brands (Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche), it also entails a long heritage of many decades, including racing triumphs, a dedication to technical innovation (as opposed to being copycats) and having their own museums. Neither the upstart Infiniti, Lexus, nor Acura brands can possibly have this type of infrastructure, and all three are clearly derivative brands in two ways: (1) derivative of their respective parent companies, Nissan, Toyota, and Honda, which probably bought the new brand name from one of those trademark name companies that also cater to the pharmaceutical industry, to give their pills new names; and (2) derivative especially of BMW and Mercedes, as I've seen in their "borrowed" styling cues and heard almost ad nauseam in their television ads over the years, often incorporating the phrase elements "...than a BMW..." or "...compared to a BMW..." somewhere along the way. As they say, imitation is flattery.

Welcome to 1990, Zweier. Your implication that the major Japanese brands have no racing heritage or history of technical innovation in their own right is too delusional to refute. Your extrapolations of how the U.S. market should perceive the 135i based on European sensibilities is also reality-challenged.

I humbly suggest that this friendly forum has been a tad too patient with this clown.

[Robert]

The 135i will be priced around 34-37k dollar range and no higher than that. Otherwise buyers like me will switch to 335i, and 1 series will be another diaster like the 318 hatchback. Another point to note is
the competitor's Audi A3 S-line is priced at 34k and the A1 is the pipeline, therefore this will keep BMW's pricing competitive.

Admittedly, the USD has slided approximately -4.5% since March and this translates to 1,500 dollars loss for a 35,000 dollar car. Even at an original price of 35,000 I don't see the price goes above 37,500.