OT: ACCC and Anti-competitive behaviour

[Taymaishu]

I know there are a few legal eagles here, wanted to see what people think of my 'current battle'.

Our development community is around 10'000 people. When the community was developed in 2005 and first buildings went up, the developers signed an MOU of some sorts with a telecommunications company that was specifically set up to provide all the internet and telephone connections to the development.

When I moved in to the devleopment in December last year, it became apparent that there was only one provider of internet service and telephone service. The cost was about 2.5x the market rate just for internet.

I enquired with TPG and Optus to see if we could get a line in and they said they do not have permission to access any of the lines in the community, as it is owned by this other company.

So, residents have no choice if they want internet/telephone lines, they HAVE to go through the one provider and pay their extortionist costs.

I called the ACCC yesterday to discuss the issue. The conversation was about 40 minutes long and they logged my complaint. However, the ACCC being the complete paper tiger they are suggested i get "independent legal advice". WTF. So called a family member who is a lawyer and discussed it. I mentioned that any agreement made between the developer and the provider was in breach on s45 of the CCA (the old Trade Practices Act). They agreed.

I'm just wondering; despite any agreement that may have been in place between the developer and the provider, surely this is anti-competitive behaviour and also a breach of s45?

Sorry for the long-winded post.

[MickyD]

I work in Telecommunications for a Tier 1 carrier (that doesn't start with T...), and to be honest, you're pretty much screwed under the current regime.

I'm assuming it's one of the estates that has been fibred with Telstra Velocity (or whatever they're calling it at the moment?) OR it has been fibred by the developer and they have interconnects with retail providers (e.g. iinet, internode etc).

I'm no lawyer, but I believe the reason they can "get away with it" is that no-one is forcing you to purchase the internet connectivity - there is still so-called competition since you can always get a wireless or 3G based service....

[Taymaishu]

Originally Posted by MickyD

I work in Telecommunications for a Tier 1 carrier (that doesn't start with T...), and to be honest, you're pretty much screwed under the current regime.

I'm assuming it's one of the estates that has been fibred with Telstra Velocity (or whatever they're calling it at the moment?) OR it has been fibred by the developer and they have interconnects with retail providers (e.g. iinet, internode etc).

I'm no lawyer, but I believe the reason they can "get away with it" is that no-one is forcing you to purchase the internet connectivity - there is still so-called competition since you can always get a wireless or 3G based service....

Thanks Micky; that's also what I have been afraid of. The fact I can tether!

However, when I read s45 a little more it became a little more interesting: -

"CCA s45(2) - Contracts, Arrangements or Understandings Affecting Competition

A corporation shall not make a contract or arrangement or arrive at an understanding if:
(i) it contains an exclusionary provision; or
(ii) a provision of it has the purpose, or would have or be likely to have the effect, of substantially lessening competition [in any market in which a corporation that is or is to be a party to it or a related body corporate supplies or acquires goods or services]; nor shall it give effect to such a provision."

When I put that to the ACCC yesterday they agreed that any agreement between developer/provider would possibly breach the Act in that sense. The question they need to follow-up, they said, was if other competitors (Telstra, Optus, TPG etc) were able and would still be able to provide services to the development.

By the way, the company is called HomeLinx. It was set up for the sole purpose of telco in the development: they operate nowhere else in Sydney or Australia for that fact.

Another point which my family lawyer pointed out was that even if there was a legal agreement in place in 2005 when the development was built, it has been 6 years since then and therefore have had more than ample opportunity to earn back their investment in infrastructure and more. Therefore, competition would be allowed to use their infrastructure.

[gazz]

Class action? How much time do you have to devote to it? Is the payoff worth it?

It may be like a covenant whereby the initial purchaser of a property from the developer agrees to abide by a set of rules or criteria applying to their property. Purchasers in your development community may have wittingly or otherwise agreed to this arrangement as a condition of purchase. However, the covenant may be unenforceable to subsequent purchasers of the property as individuals with no such agreement with the developer.

Is the MOU with the development community or with the developer? Does the community have a representative body such as a body corporate? Does this body have an agreement in place with the telecommunications company? If so, is it a fair and reasonable agreement in that there is some form of benefit to the body corporate as compensation for the high charge rates? Etc etc etc.

[Stuart@BMRAutowerkes]

wow pretty dedicated!!

hope you can see some results if you stick with it and fight through.

I'd probably be too lazy to even call the ACCC and just pay the high cost/use 3G/move suburbs entirely lol

[Taymaishu]

I have just emailed HomeLinx, the provider, with a range of questions.

Gazz, in my best attempt to answer you:

Is the MOU with the development community or with the developer?
As far as I am aware, it is between the developer and provider.

Does the community have a representative body such as a body corporate? Does this body have an agreement in place with the telecommunications company?
Of course we have a body corporate, but I am unable to ascertain any relationship between HomeLinx and BC.

The ACCC said that an agreement between developer and provider must be registered with them for a moratorium as it would limit competition. He looked up the providers ABN and found no record of a moratorium; pretty much I take that as the ability to go open slather on them.

[gazz]

[WAY]

My community is fibred with Telstra Velocity and as such is the only service provider. Sure the service is bit more expensive, and I have to get a phone line eventhough it's fibre, but hey, I already have NBN speed that everyone has been promised that will probably get to you in 5 years. So no complaining to ACCC here.

[Taymaishu]

Here's an example of the costs:

Internet

5GB p/m: $49
10GB p/m: $59
15GB p/m: $79
20GB p/m: $99

Claiming that speeds range from 5mbit to 20mbit.

Some of the guys over at Whirlpool who have been complaining about the same thing say the service is slow as f**k.

[05C4R]

sounds like your fibred

[WAY]

Originally Posted by Taymaishu

Here's an example of the costs:

Internet

5GB p/m: $49
10GB p/m: $59
15GB p/m: $79
20GB p/m: $99

Claiming that speeds range from 5mbit to 20mbit.

Some of the guys over at Whirlpool who have been complaining about the same thing say the service is slow as f**k.

That speed is crap. We have two options with Telstra Velocity. 30mbps and 100mbps. HD YouTube has never been easier. Also I think I pay something like $119 for 200GB and $20 for phone line (that we have never used and don't even know the number) so it sounds like yours is very expensive.

[Taymaishu]

Originally Posted by WAY

That speed is crap. We have two options with Telstra Velocity. 30mbps and 100mbps. HD YouTube has never been easier. Also I think I pay something like $119 for 200GB and $20 for phone line (that we have never used and don't even know the number) so it sounds like yours is very expensive.

It is - and considering the cost and data allowance, it's bullshit.

That's probably the one of the things going for an ACCC complaint - the service and cost is nowhere near market average.

[130iguy]

5gb for 50 bucks! THATS A FUCKING JOKE

http://www.tio.com.au/default.asp

[chylld]

by the third paragraph i knew it was homelinx my friend in the palermo building had exactly the same complaints when he moved in almost 2 years ago.

don't think he's done anything about it since, but he probably wouldn't know which avenues to pursue to getshitdone(tm)

as for speed, i have a box full of solutions sitting right next to my keyboard

[Taymaishu]

Originally Posted by chylld

by the third paragraph i knew it was homelinx my friend in the palermo building had exactly the same complaints when he moved in almost 2 years ago.

don't think he's done anything about it since, but he probably wouldn't know which avenues to pursue to getshitdone(tm)

as for speed, i have a box full of solutions sitting right next to my keyboard

On top of that, you know I live there anyway!

Yeah there's a lot of discussion about it on Whirlpool.

Mind swinging me a few of those nifty gadgets?

Originally Posted by 130iguy

5gb for 50 bucks! THATS A FUCKING JOKE

http://www.tio.com.au/default.asp

Called them today; nothing they can do on pricing. They said it's purely a business decision.

[Taymaishu]

On that note, just wondering if anyone knows of some good home wireless broadband providers?

[chylld]

Originally Posted by Taymaishu

On that note, just wondering if anyone knows of some good home wireless broadband providers?

I tested an optus wireless broadband modem in the palermo building and reception was horrible unless it was literally pressed up against the window. with the amount of buildings going up in the area the situation can only get worse!

Similarly my phone (on vodafone) doesn't even have voice reception in my friend's apartment. i have to step out onto the balcony to make a call.

if you want the absolute best performance (not sure what speeds homelinx are delivering these days) then i'd recommend a Telstra ultimate paired with a draytek 2110n. but the prices are about the same as homelinx

[MickyD]

Originally Posted by Taymaishu

Claiming that speeds range from 5mbit to 20mbit.

Some of the guys over at Whirlpool who have been complaining about the same thing say the service is slow as f**k.

They will most likely (in fact, 100% certainly...) be connecting all of the properties in the development back to an internet connection they're buying off a carrier. It may well be that they only have (say) a 20M connection out to the internet, so this is shared amongst everyone in the estate. Technically they're not being misleading by saying it can do up to 20M, it's just that the chances of actually getting it are very slim since it's shared amongst gawd knows how many people.

[RadiuM]

My sister is in one of these communities and telstra laid the fibre to all the homes in the area. They can ONLY go with bigpond and telstra for phone calls so they went with a wireless solution.

Didn't I read the other day telstra/optus will be selling these places they've already laid with fibre to the NBN? So then the user can connect to whomever

[MickyD]

Originally Posted by RadiuM

Didn't I read the other day telstra/optus will be selling these places they've already laid with fibre to the NBN? So then the user can connect to whomever

Optus is selling the HFC (i.e. Cable) network to NBNCo for $800M*

I'm not 100% sure of what Telstra is selling, but I believe it's basically the copper network (and ducts) and cable network. I'm not sure if this includes the fibred communities.

*not bad for a network that's about to be end of life... as in the cable itself only lasts 20 years before for dielectric starts breaking down....

[05C4R]

Originally Posted by MickyD

Optus is selling the HFC (i.e. Cable) network to NBNCo for $800M*


*not bad for a network that's about to be end of life... as in the cable itself only lasts 20 years before for dielectric starts breaking down....

i wish you didn't tell me that, this govt is going to literally kill me

[aus135i]

was the developer Meriton ?