The Ultimate Stereo

[mineo77]

Originally Posted by whuts4lunch

The system Ken at MusicarNW recommends sounds amazing, but is a ton of money even if I install it myself, and I feel like I should be able to do a very decent system for much less.

Here is what I am thinking as far as a cost effective yet still very high-end system:

• add JL Audio Clean Sweep (2 units) to normalize, optimize, and send the sound signals to the proper channels $330.
• add a 5 channel amp for $350-$510. Possibly the Kenwood XR-5S
• keep the stock door speakers
• add tweeters for around $120-$200
• use the stock under-seat speakers as mid-bass drivers
• keep the stock rears
• add a subwoofer and sub enclosure for around $400. Possibly a Kenwood 10" Thin Sub.
• add sound padding in the cabin for roughly $120

I'd let the head unit power the rears and have the 5 channel amp do a channel for each door plus tweeter, a channel for each under seat mid bass, and a channel for the subwoofer.

Is there any way I can get the right audio signal to go to the right speakers without spending so much on the JL Clean Sweeps? I feel like there may be an equally effective yet cheaper way.

replied via email. dont pull the trigger on above till you read. IMHO the above 'system' is a poor choice.

[whuts4lunch]

you make fair points mineo

Do you have an idea of a good system that will run me under $2000 including install? The system that MusicarNW recommends is $3450 and thats before shipping and install. That's a lot to spend, especially right after I just spent a lot on the car itself. I suppose $3000 is my hard ceiling, but I'd really like to keep it more in the 2k range.

[mineo77]

Originally Posted by whuts4lunch

you make fair points mineo

Do you have an idea of a good system that will run me under $2000 including install? The system that MusicarNW recommends is $3450 and thats before shipping and install. That's a lot to spend, especially right after I just spent a lot on the car itself. I suppose $3000 is my hard ceiling, but I'd really like to keep it more in the 2k range.

Just depends on what your overall expectation of a system is, but I would suggest doing it is stages over a period of time so that you get the system you really want and that meets your expectations.

lemme think about it

[rogm]

just choose the stage 1 and upgrade the front speakers, later on you can add a sub...

[JimD]

I am likely to get negative comments from people who admittedly have more car experience with audio than I have. I am a mechanical engineer and got a little college credit many years ago for papers in this area. I have also built several home systems but my experience in cars is much more limited.

With that background I will say what I have said before. What you hear is speakers, not amps. Driving a poor driver harder with a bigger amp does not make sense to me. Better drivers are often, not always, more efficient. So they make more sound with less power. It is not unusual for the sound output with one watt of input (a typical rating) to vary 3-6 db or more for drivers. To get 3db more sound you need twice the power. I do not know the efficiency rating of what you have but there is a fair chance if you replace it you will gain some efficiency. I know that little ~4 inch woofers with no tweeters and 6 inch under seat subs could use some help.

I would be thinking of better front 4 inch woofers and tweeters to start. If you want loud thumping bass the other drivers at the stop light can hear, then put in a trunk woofer. One of the posters here will supply you a custom enclosure so you have some trunk space left. You will need an amp for it. After that, you can decide if you need to replace the under seat drivers and/or add more power to the speakers in the passenger cabin.

I've only tested my mid-level BMW system but the bass from the 8 inch under seat woofers is if anything a little above the mid and high level frequency response. I used test tones and a radio shack sound meter to see how flat the frequency response is. High frequencies fell of sharply above 10K and low bass was measureable below 40 hz which is commendable for a 8 inch driver. It does not sound like a lot of bass compared to some other systems but what seems popular these days is a big bump in the 100 Hz range. That is not really low bass but to get the bump that seems to be desired may require a fairly large speaker.

More power sounds cleaner up to a point but when you put too much power to a speaker first it distorts and starts to sound bad and then it mechanically breaks. Better speakers will take more power before gross distortion sets in. For multiple reasons, I think you should start with replacing the front drivers - the ones you really hear - and then think about amps.

Jim

[mineo77]

Originally Posted by JimD

I am likely to get negative comments from people who admittedly have more car experience with audio than I have. I am a mechanical engineer and got a little college credit many years ago for papers in this area. I have also built several home systems but my experience in cars is much more limited.

With that background I will say what I have said before. What you hear is speakers, not amps. Driving a poor driver harder with a bigger amp does not make sense to me. Better drivers are often, not always, more efficient. So they make more sound with less power. It is not unusual for the sound output with one watt of input (a typical rating) to vary 3-6 db or more for drivers. To get 3db more sound you need twice the power. I do not know the efficiency rating of what you have but there is a fair chance if you replace it you will gain some efficiency. I know that little ~4 inch woofers with no tweeters and 6 inch under seat subs could use some help.

I would be thinking of better front 4 inch woofers and tweeters to start. If you want loud thumping bass the other drivers at the stop light can hear, then put in a trunk woofer. One of the posters here will supply you a custom enclosure so you have some trunk space left. You will need an amp for it. After that, you can decide if you need to replace the under seat drivers and/or add more power to the speakers in the passenger cabin.

I've only tested my mid-level BMW system but the bass from the 8 inch under seat woofers is if anything a little above the mid and high level frequency response. I used test tones and a radio shack sound meter to see how flat the frequency response is. High frequencies fell of sharply above 10K and low bass was measureable below 40 hz which is commendable for a 8 inch driver. It does not sound like a lot of bass compared to some other systems but what seems popular these days is a big bump in the 100 Hz range. That is not really low bass but to get the bump that seems to be desired may require a fairly large speaker.

More power sounds cleaner up to a point but when you put too much power to a speaker first it distorts and starts to sound bad and then it mechanically breaks. Better speakers will take more power before gross distortion sets in. For multiple reasons, I think you should start with replacing the front drivers - the ones you really hear - and then think about amps.

Jim

agree

[tracer bullet]

Agreed as well, but I'm not sure why you think you'd take flak for the opinion. Perhaps it's not "obvious" to everyone, but it seems pretty straightforward and I doubt you'll find anyone actually disagreeing on the gist of it.

One thing to keep in mind however is that often on factory systems (ours included it appears) the stock amp runs EQ on the signal before it's sent to the speakers to make up for any stock speaker deficiencies. I know that with my last platform (Mistubishi) changing out only the speakers to any decent aftermarket set sounded *horrible* because of the built-in EQ. Speakers and amp together were a fairly necessary combo.

[JimD]

I agree that once you change something in a car as engineered at the bimmer, changing one component often means changing more. Looking at my test results I would be very surprised if the output of the amp had a flat frequency response (i.e. I don't think the drivers themselves would give me a flat response). It it did, that would probably not result in flat response from the new speakers. Equilization shouldn't require amplification but it might be practical to do both.

I do not know how much engineering goes into something like the BSW speakers but it is possible to do some shaping with the crossover and the speaker can be tuned too. BSW says they engineer their drivers and have them custom manufacured. Done right, that could result in reasonable frequency response. I have seen no results where anybody has measured the frequency response of the result.

Jim

[808MGuy]

The only thing I would disagree with is that better speakers are more efficient. That's not always the case. Many aftermarket speakers, if not most, will be less efficient than the OEMs so you need adequate power to drive them. Underpowering is much worse than having too much power. Underpowering will lead to clipping when trying to push them beyond what the amp is capable of proving and that's what typically damages speakers. Having too much power is easy to deal with as long as its not like 4x the RMS rating. Just turn the gains down and you have all the power you need plus a bunch of dynamic headroom. Remember that the rating if the amp doesn't mean it outputs that much power all the time. It is what it can do if you push it to its limit. Most of the time, it will be putting out much less.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Yep, more power is safer and sounds better, and is not really about more volume.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Originally Posted by whuts4lunch

The system Ken at MusicarNW recommends sounds amazing, but is a ton of money even if I install it myself, and I feel like I should be able to do a very decent system for much less.

Here is what I am thinking as far as a cost effective yet still very high-end system:

• add JL Audio Clean Sweep (2 units) to normalize, optimize, and send the sound signals to the proper channels $330.
• add a 5 channel amp for $350-$510. Possibly the Kenwood XR-5S
• keep the stock door speakers
• add tweeters for around $120-$200
• use the stock under-seat speakers as mid-bass drivers
• keep the stock rears
• add a subwoofer and sub enclosure for around $400. Possibly a Kenwood 10" Thin Sub.
• add sound padding in the cabin for roughly $120

I'd let the head unit power the rears and have the 5 channel amp do a channel for each door plus tweeter, a channel for each under seat mid bass, and a channel for the subwoofer.

Is there any way I can get the right audio signal to go to the right speakers without spending so much on the JL Clean Sweeps? I feel like there may be an equally effective yet cheaper way.

Assuming you already have the oem A pillar tweeters, I think the most useful bit of kit here will be the Jl Audio clean sweeps, or something similar that counteracts the acoustic environment of a car and compensates for your seating position.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Originally Posted by JimD

Another option is Bavariansoundwerks.com. Their systems are more plug - n - play for the DIY option. They now have both a speaker kit and an amplifier kit. They also supply instructions.

Jim

These guys look compelling but I cannot find any specs on their site about frequency response, impedance, etc for their speakers. Is it there?

[808MGuy]

Originally Posted by Nathan_h

These guys look compelling but I cannot find any specs on their site about frequency response, impedance, etc for their speakers. Is it there?

That's because they won't release it which is absolutely crazy IMO. No specs = no sale for me.

[JimD]

I agree that listening to a speaker played louder than your amp can deliver is more damaging to a speaker than putting the same peak power to the speaker without the clipping of the signal that occurs when you try to play louder than you really can. Most if not all speakers can handle more peak power than they can RMS. When you are delivering a clipped signal, you are coming closer to RMS. Why anybody wants to listen to music this way is beyond me but the observation is true.

Having a big amp can be a "safe" thing but only if the user is reasonable in what they do with it. Kind of like having a lot of speed potential in a bimmer. Having an amp rated to put out a lot more than your speakers can handle gives you the potential to destroy them. I actually caught a speaker on fire once. We were obviously not listening very critically at that point. If you only listen at sane levels and listen for signs of distortion from the speaker, you should be OK.

I still do not know the effiency of the stock speakers in bimmers but I looked up a few speakers I think may be decent. Focal 100KRS are said to have 90db sensitivity but the units were not quoted. The same source listed Focal 100VRS at 91 (their shallow depth probably is more likely to work in a 1 series). Morel Hybrid Ovation II (the only 4 inch I saw on their website) is listed at 89 dB at 2.83V at 1M. That would be a fairly typical way to rate speakers but it is not really consistent with the more traditional 1W at 1M when you are dealing with a 4 ohm speaker. Assuming that is also the Focal units of sensitivity I would consider all of these pretty high sensitivity and likely to be if anything higher in sensitivity to the stock units - but I admit I really do not know this since I don't know the parameters of the stock units.

Jim

[nato-main-man-5am]

Underpowered and overpowered amps are neither ideal. But I still think overpowered is safer, on the whole. And better sounding until you over do it (ie, better sounding at higher levels within reason than an underpowered amp).

The stock speakers (except for that travesty during MY2010 and early MT2011 when the stock system was the horrible "stereo" config) in the 1 series are listed in the BMW docs this way. They don't list sensitivity. So we really don't know too much, but the bandwidth spec is useful and corresponds with what people have measured. And, frankly, works for most accurate music reproduction pretty well.

6 channels
10 loudspeakers
• 2 treble loudspeakers, front 26 mm
• 2 mid-range loudspeakers, front 100 mm
• 2 bass loudspeakers, 217 mm
• 2 mid-range loudspeakers, rear, 100 mm
• 2 treble loudspeakers, rear 26 mm
Bandwidth: 40 Hz to 20.000 Hz
Max. acoustic pressure: 104 dB
Amplifier power:
2 x 40 W (2 Ω) Bass
4 x 25 W (2 Ω)

The analogue 6-channel HiFi amplifier can be operated with every radio or navigation system offered. The HiFi
amplifier is located in the rear left of the luggage compartment behind the luggage compartment trim. The audio
signals are transferred to the HiFi amplifier in analogue form. The HiFi amplifier amplifies the signals and sends
them to the loudspeakers. In total, 10 loudspeakers can be controlled via 6 audio channels.
The treble loudspeakers and mid-range loudspeakers are connected in parallel. They are each supplied by the four
amplifier output stages via a common wire. At the mid-range loudspeaker there is a diplexer (high pass) that
decouples the signal for the treble loudspeaker. The diplexer takes the form of a capacitor. With a higher frequency
the alternating current resistance (impedance) is lower and the capacitor is therefore more conductive. Thus, only
higher frequency signals reach the tweeter loudspeakers. Low frequency signals, which could damage the treble
loudspeakers, are suppressed.

[808MGuy]

Originally Posted by JimD

I agree that listening to a speaker played louder than your amp can deliver is more damaging to a speaker than putting the same peak power to the speaker without the clipping of the signal that occurs when you try to play louder than you really can. Most if not all speakers can handle more peak power than they can RMS. When you are delivering a clipped signal, you are coming closer to RMS. Why anybody wants to listen to music this way is beyond me but the observation is true.

Having a big amp can be a "safe" thing but only if the user is reasonable in what they do with it. Kind of like having a lot of speed potential in a bimmer. Having an amp rated to put out a lot more than your speakers can handle gives you the potential to destroy them. I actually caught a speaker on fire once. We were obviously not listening very critically at that point. If you only listen at sane levels and listen for signs of distortion from the speaker, you should be OK.

I still do not know the effiency of the stock speakers in bimmers but I looked up a few speakers I think may be decent. Focal 100KRS are said to have 90db sensitivity but the units were not quoted. The same source listed Focal 100VRS at 91 (their shallow depth probably is more likely to work in a 1 series). Morel Hybrid Ovation II (the only 4 inch I saw on their website) is listed at 89 dB at 2.83V at 1M. That would be a fairly typical way to rate speakers but it is not really consistent with the more traditional 1W at 1M when you are dealing with a 4 ohm speaker. Assuming that is also the Focal units of sensitivity I would consider all of these pretty high sensitivity and likely to be if anything higher in sensitivity to the stock units - but I admit I really do not know this since I don't know the parameters of the stock units.

Jim

I'm thinking the OEM speakers have a sensitivity well over 90dB. The reason I think that is I only changed my front speakers and added an amp. After the install, my rear speakers were significantly louder than my fronts even with my amp gains set properly. I had to back off the rears using my fader control to even them out. This is not uncommon in my experience as I've witnessed this same effect even when doing straight speaker swaps. The aftermarket speaker running off the same amplifier is almost always softer than the OEM speaker but the aftermarket speaker will have better frequency response and better dynamic range. The OEM system designer needs to take advantage of the highly efficient speakers so they don't need to install high powered amps and thus making the system much cheaper. Remember that OEM audio is almost always an afterthought for the manufacturer. The car is not built around the audio system. The audio system is built to fit in the car and within the budget allocated for it.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Originally Posted by 808MGuy

I'm thinking the OEM speakers have a sensitivity well over 90dB. The reason I think that is I only changed my front speakers and added an amp. After the install, my rear speakers were significantly louder than my fronts even with my amp gains set properly. I had to back off the rears using my fader control to even them out. This is not uncommon in my experience as I've witnessed this same effect even when doing straight speaker swaps. The aftermarket speaker running off the same amplifier is almost always softer than the OEM speaker but the aftermarket speaker will have better frequency response and better dynamic range. The OEM system designer needs to take advantage of the highly efficient speakers so they don't need to install high powered amps and thus making the system much cheaper. Remember that OEM audio is almost always an afterthought for the manufacturer. The car is not built around the audio system. The audio system is built to fit in the car and within the budget allocated for it.

Interesting data point. Makes sense.

What speakers did you put in the front? What amp did you use? Was it a clean swap for the OEM amp in terms of size/location/wiring?

[808MGuy]

Originally Posted by Nathan_h

Interesting data point. Makes sense.

What speakers did you put in the front? What amp did you use? Was it a clean swap for the OEM amp in terms of size/location/wiring?

I'm running a/d/s/ 344is mids and an a/d/s/ px concept tweeter up front and Morel ADMW 9" underseat woofers. All powered by a Zapco DC650.6. I did not remove the OEM hi-fi amp from my car. The OEM amp is still there to run the rear speakers which are also still OEM. I just tapped the balanced line level signal before the OEM amp to run to the Zapco amp.

Here's a picture of the molex connector I installed on the factory wiring before the OEM amp. What you see there is the connectors installed but the connections are still to the OEM system as I was preparing to install the amp at a later time. The connector you see hanging on the bottom is the connection to the Zapco amp. When I was ready to connect the Zapco amp, I just disconnected the OEM amp side of the molex connector and plugged in the Zapco side.

[nato-main-man-5am]

Cool. Thanks.

Did those mids fit without modifying the door panels?

We were able to continue to use the old, in line crossover?

[taibanl]

Originally Posted by nelson29

Contact member Technic, He's a car audio guru thats done a lot of installation in our cars. He lives in Ft. Lauderdale.

+1 due to your location

If you were in the NW, www.musicarNW.com

[808MGuy]

Originally Posted by Nathan_h

Cool. Thanks.

Did those mids fit without modifying the door panels?

We were able to continue to use the old, in line crossover?

I don't think they would fit in a 1-series. My car is an E90 M3 so there's a little more space in the door. The DC650.6 runs everything active using the DSP in the amp for crossover duties so none of the factory wiring was used for the door speakers or underseat woofers.

[quality_sound]

There is no such thing as "underpowering". When you clip your amp all that happens is that it sounds worse and the average power delivered to the speaker increases. That's it. If that extra power is able to be dissipated by the speaker then NOTHING bad will EVER happen. Take a 100-Watt amp, connect it to a sub with a rating of about 300-ish Watts continuous and it'll take it all day every day. Clipping in and of itself is NOT a big deal. It sounds bad, but really, that's it. A lot of people don't understand what clipping really does so they just tell everyone underpowering makes you clip your amp and that blows speakers.