135I chips?

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

You post this same crap in every thread where it comes up, and you have yet to provide a single shread of evidence to support your claim.

Show us a thread where someone has had a claim denial because of a JB3 or Proceed that's been detected after it was removed. Either back your statements up with some facts, or stop spewing this nonsense.

For a person who wrote that he is clueless exactly what codes show and what can be found, I guess you are just getting a bit emotional. Call Dan at Unitred as he has stated more than once that any tune can be found if they look. You can also call Bob Poduch at Motorwerks BMW in Barrington Il and talk to him. What do you exprect a tuner to say, that it can be found? You can clear codes all you want, but they can tell if you tune. Got to pay to play. Now go back and read some of your old posts, after all, you are a programmer! Ever BMW tech that I have talked with at several dealers will tell you they can find them.

This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B12 20 08 dated June 2008. Designates changes to this revision SUBJECTN54 - Various Complaints Caused by Aftermarket "Tuning Kits" MODELE90, E92, E93 with N54 engine E60, E61 with N54 engine E82, E88 with N54 engine E71with N54 engine

SITUATION I: The customer may complain about an excessive muffler noise; "backfiring" into the intake manifold; high (increased) engine oil/fuel consumption; illumination of the "Service Engine Soon Light"; or an excessive battery draw. Fault codes 2D18 or 2D25, "Manipulation protection, max air mass", may be stored in the DME, indicating an implausible airflow. To prevent possible engine mechanical damage due to increased turbocharging pressure, the DME will limit the maximum available torque to the nominal torque value of 400Nm.

SITUATION II: The customer may complain that the vehicle couldn't pass the state emissions inspection, where scanning of the OBD readiness codes is part of the inspection procedure. The GT1/DIS or aftermarket testing equipment indicates that the EVAP system is a "not supported" function of the vehicle's OBD control system. Also, various complaints regarding the cruise control being inactive; the battery draw message displayed in the Control Display; or incorrect muffler flap operation may be encountered. CAUSE I: An aftermarket engine performance tuning kit, "turbo-tuner control module" (piggyback box), is (or was) installed in the vehicle. Depending on the manufacturer, these modules are plugged directly into the TMAP (Temperature / Manifold Ambient Pressure) sensor or into the DME harness in the E-box. The modified (erroneous) air intake pressure signal supplied to the DME causes an increased turbo boost. In some cases, these modifications also include alteration to the waste-gate vacuum plumbing, which may cause various vacuum supply problems. CAUSE II: The vehicle's DME was reprogrammed with an aftermarket "N54performance software calibration". As a result, various DME OBD II-relevant diagnostic functions are inoperative, or their functionalities are limited. Examples include diagnostic of the purge system; map-cooling thermostat; engine temperature sensor; oxygen sensors; and the functionality of the evaporation system and exhaust flaps.

INFORMATION: With the integration level of E89X-08-03-530 or higher (introduced with Progman V29.02.00), any alteration to the TMAP sensor signal ("piggyback box") is detected by setting the DME fault codes 2D25/2D18 ("Manipulation protection, max air mass signal plausibility"). In such a case, the maximum engine torque cannot exceed 400 Nm.

Aftermarket N54 DME software modifications usually do not change either programmed or basic DME part numbers, so it is not possible to identify this alteration via DME identification pages. In certain cases, the MSD80 DME software modifications can be detected by executing test module "S1214 NG6OBDII/Read codes" (reading of the OBD readiness codes). If the readiness code for the "Fuel Tank Ventilation" shows "XXX" (instead of "yes" or "no"), this is an indication that evaporation system function is not supported by the DME and the original BMW software was altered. (In this situation, when using the aftermarket scanning tool for checking readiness monitors, the Evaporation System status would be displayed as "Not Supported".) In such a case, the vehicle is not compliant with the federal (EPA) and state (CARB) emissions anti-tampering laws.

WARRANTY INFORMATION: Any repair or diagnostic cost incurred by a component and/or system failure as a result of an "N54 aftermarket engine tuning kit" installation is not covered by the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Moreover, modification of the vehicle or installation of any non-approved performance accessories or components attached to the vehicle, which alters the original engineering and/or operating specifications, or which results in damage to the other original components, voids the warranty coverage on the affected original Drivetrain and Emission Control components.In general terms, the BMW warranty on Drivetrain and Emission Control components is void due to a modification where the modification, alteration or installation of a non-approved aftermarket part was responsible for the failure. Please make sure to inform BMW customers considering the purchase of an aftermarket "N54 Engine Tuning" kit of the above legal, technical and warranty implications.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

For a person who wrote that he is clueless exactly what codes show and what can be found, I guess you are just getting a bit emotional. Call Dan at Unitred as he has stated more than once that any tune can be found if they look. You can also call Bob Poduch at Motorwerks BMW in Barrington Il and talk to him. What do you exprect a tuner to say, that it can be found? You can clear codes all you want, but they can tell if you tune. Got to pay to play. Now go back and read some of your old posts, after all, you are a programmer! Ever BMW tech that I have talked with at several dealers will tell you they can find them.
.

I'm not emotional at all. You've made this claim several times, and I want to see you back it up with some proof, or shut up about it. I don't give a rats ass what a dealer tech told you, or what someone working in the internet parts department thinks. There are so many clueless dealer techs out there it's not even funny. We had a case posted here last year where it took a dealership and a BMW rep over a week to diagnose a slipping clutch, and they even tried to fix that with a software update. If you believe everything that comes out of a dealer techs mouth, you're foolish.

Why exactly should I go back and read some of my old posts? If you've got something in mind that I said, post it.

That TSB you posted does exactly NOTHING to prove your point. We're all well aware that there are tuner codes, and we also know that they can be cleared with the BT scanner. You're saying that they can still see them, and I want to see you prove that, or stop stating it as fact.

[plasar]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

Is the dealer wants to find out, they can tell.....you can clear them all you want, but they still reside there. same as your PC. Delete all files, but they are still there.

Hi ShodanUSMC. I work in IT. It's true that for a normal delete, your PC will just mark the hard drive area as available to use again and leave the data intact.

However, there is 3rd party software/freeware and now even operating system features (ex. Mac Secure Empty) that will overwrite the data with new data so it is difficult/impossible to recover.

Mac Secure Empty Trash
Wikipedia Data Erasure
Wikipedia Data Remanence


In fact, as per the Wikipedia Data Remanence article, "according to the 2006 NIST Special Publication 800-88 (p. 7): "Studies have shown that most of today’s media can be effectively cleared by one overwrite.'"


I'm not sure exactly what type of memory is used for the BMW ECU codes (probably some type of non-volitile RAM) and what and how completely the reset tool deletes this memory (are there any special areas it cannot reset?).

Like JeremyC, I'd like to know the details of how someone can read codes that have been deleted by a BT Scanner.

[plasar]

TexasKid and Mike:

Yes, unfortunately, Dinan is a little cagey about their power increase. They state that Dinan Stage 2 put out 384 HP on the N54, however, their baseline engine put out 332 HP, so it's really a 52 HP gain.

Dinan Power Increase 52 HP


To Dinan's credit, they post the full results of the dyno test in a table, they tell exactly how they got the power increase via increased boost (boost listed by RPM in dyno table), and they detail some of the challenges they faced along the way (ex. cooling flow, high rpm stresses).

What you are buying with Dinan Stage 2 is a seamless ECU software reprogram (no piggyback) and a backup warranty to cover failures that BMW's warranty won't cover. It ain't cheap, but it's elegant, well engineered, and safe.

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

I'm not emotional at all. You've made this claim several times, and I want to see you back it up with some proof, or shut up about it. I don't give a rats ass what a dealer tech told you, or what someone working in the internet parts department thinks. There are so many clueless dealer techs out there it's not even funny. We had a case posted here last year where it took a dealership and a BMW rep over a week to diagnose a slipping clutch, and they even tried to fix that with a software update. If you believe everything that comes out of a dealer techs mouth, you're foolish.

Why exactly should I go back and read some of my old posts? If you've got something in mind that I said, post it.

That TSB you posted does exactly NOTHING to prove your point. We're all well aware that there are tuner codes, and we also know that they can be cleared with the BT scanner. You're saying that they can still see them, and I want to see you prove that, or stop stating it as fact.

There you go again, all emotional. You really are the mouth that roared. If you do not want to take thew word of a BMW Tech, Techs, Dan, etc, then go for it. Load it up. All I am saying is that BMW if they take the time to check, can tell. Do you think they are asleep at the switch...in today's economy. It is a moot point. Anyone putting on a tune that causes a engine/drivetrain problem knows that they are SOL. Case closed. Now go act like a baby again and tell us that nothing can be found.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

There you go again, all emotional. You really are the mouth that roared. If you do not want to take thew word of a BMW Tech, Techs, Dan, etc, then go for it. Load it up. All I am saying is that BMW if they take the time to check, can tell. Do you think they are asleep at the switch...in today's economy. It is a moot point. Anyone putting on a tune that causes a engine/drivetrain problem knows that they are SOL. Case closed. Now go act like a baby again and tell us that nothing can be found.

Where the proof? Give us ONE example of someone who's had manipulation codes found by BMW after they've cleared them with a BT scanner. JUST ONE! That's not asking for much from someone who claims to know for a fact that it can be done, now is it?

You're talking out of your ass, you've been called out on it, and now you're going to call people names like a child.

I'm pretty sure at this point it's obvious to most people that you don't have a clue what you're talking about, so my point's been made.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

There you go again, all emotional. You really are the mouth that roared. If you do not want to take thew word of a BMW Tech, Techs, Dan, etc, then go for it. Load it up. All I am saying is that BMW if they take the time to check, can tell. Do you think they are asleep at the switch...in today's economy. It is a moot point. Anyone putting on a tune that causes a engine/drivetrain problem knows that they are SOL. Case closed. Now go act like a baby again and tell us that nothing can be found.

This is a detail oriented business and the reality is that while most BMW techs think they know everything, they are actually grossly uninformed. This works to our favor. Most of them point to that memo sent in March, 2008 about detection codes as proof that tunes can be tracked. Only the tuners all developed a work around to stay hidden in April, 2008. BMW techs have no concept of the latest BT cable and how it can read/delete EVERYTHING they can see.

I don't support warranty fraud in any way and I agree you need to pay to play. That is why its important to pick a safe tune like the JB3 which has had zero tuning related motor failures. But customers should be informed of the facts.

Mike

[TexasKid]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The Dinan is a nice option, but their advertising is misleading. It has been proven to put down around 50hp to the wheels, compared to 40hp to the wheels with the JB+ and 60-80hp to the wheels with the JB3.

Mike

Thanks, but I'd still rather buy something offered by my dealership and not something I "picked up online." If the Dinan warranty only covers the powertrain, what warranty does JB cover? I've had Dinan equipment in my last 2 BMW's, and I'd rather have them under the hood in case something does go wrong. If I pull into my service department with a problem, it sure is going to be easier to get something covered under warranty that THEY installed, versus something I added myself. Sure, someone will ALWAYS have a product that might make a little more power, but at what cost when the sh*t hits the fan? And I feel pretty certain that a large company like Dinan lies and tells its' world of customers that the DS2 puts down 85hp, and you claim 50hp at the wheel. If BMW likes Dinan enough to allow it to be sold at its' dealerships, then that's what I'm sticking with. To each his own.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by TexasKid

Thanks, but I'd still rather buy something offered by my dealership and not something I "picked up online." If the Dinan warranty only covers the powertrain, what warranty does JB cover? I've had Dinan equipment in my last 2 BMW's, and I'd rather have them under the hood in case something does go wrong. If I pull into my service department with a problem, it sure is going to be easier to get something covered under warranty that THEY installed, versus something I added myself. Sure, someone will ALWAYS have a product that might make a little more power, but at what cost when the sh*t hits the fan? And I feel pretty certain that a large company like Dinan lies and tells its' world of customers that the DS2 puts down 85hp, and you claim 50hp at the wheel. If BMW likes Dinan enough to allow it to be sold at its' dealerships, then that's what I'm sticking with. To each his own.

If you're happy with the Dinan option then I'm happy that you're happy.

Dinan automatically voids your BMW warranty, and replaces it with a warranty of their own. This covers you for the duration of your factory warranty as long as you do not add any non-Dinan parts, take the car to the track, etc. On occasion customers get stuck between BMW and Dinan trying to sort out a problem that neither side wants to pay for. But generally it works itself out. For that piece of mind you pay $2000 for a tune that gives around 50hp to the wheels. It's not a bad deal. Although most already are aware Dinan and BMW have had a falling out and Dinan is operating at a net loss, and they are trying to sell the company. The last deal they had with a Canadian equity firm fell apart at the last moment. So their future is a bit cloudy IMHO.

Alternatively, you can pay less than $300 for a tune that gives 40hp to the wheels, and is invisible to the dealership. It takes 20 seconds to install or remove, and runs very conservative boost levels. You can spend another $150 to add a piece of diagnostic equipment that lets you see any hidden codes and raise the dial up to 50-60hp to the wheels. I won't even get in to the stronger JB3 option.

At last word there were around 1500 Dinan flash tunes in use, and around 4500 JB tunes in use. Both are popular and have their markets.

Mike

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Where the proof? Give us ONE example of someone who's had manipulation codes found by BMW after they've cleared them with a BT scanner. JUST ONE! That's not asking for much from someone who claims to know for a fact that it can be done, now is it?

You're talking out of your ass, you've been called out on it, and now you're going to call people names like a child.

I'm pretty sure at this point it's obvious to most people that you don't have a clue what you're talking about, so my point's been made.

You want to call Dan at United, the techs at Motorwerks, Patrick and Fields BMW liars, go for it. If they want to find it, they can. You have your blinders on, and chances are I have forgotten more about software than you presently know. I really could care less if you believe you are clearing a code, of if you are covered or have to pay for a repair. Best of luck. BTW, there are many other names that I could have called you that perhaps fit better, but child suffices.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

You want to call Dan at United, the techs at Motorwerks, Patrick and Fields BMW liars, go for it. If they want to find it, they can. You have your blinders on, and chances are I have forgotten more about software than you presently know. I really could care less if you believe you are clearing a code, of if you are covered or have to pay for a repair. Best of luck. BTW, there are many other names that I could have called you that perhaps fit better, but child suffices.

No, I'm not going to call, Dan, or anyone else. YOU are going to post something to back this up, or I'm going to call you out on it in every single thread you post it in from now on.

And you've forgotten more about software than I know? I program for a living, and have been doing it for about 15 years, so I seriously doubt that. Good Lord...some of the BS people come up with when they're called out is just amazing!

[BMW-driver]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

...Alternatively, you can pay less than $300 for a tune that gives 40hp to the wheels, and is invisible to the dealership...
Mike

Mike, please tell me. So, if something wrong with a 135i with a JB3 tune. And you bring the JB3 tuned car into a BMW garage. And the BMW engineers opening the bonnet and/or doing a dyno (which f.i. they do at Schnitzer/BMW) and the cars pulls about 400 bhp (something like that) then those engineers would say: yes, this is a stock car ?

[BahamaBart]

Originally Posted by kirby135i

well i think most of those issues are the HPFP which doesnt really have anything to do with a tune

Correct - up to this point there is no linkage between the cars flaws/failures and aftermarket tunes such as JB/Dinan. Appreciate tunes such as JB+ or the Dinan stage 1/2(?) keep the car within reasonable levels of increased boost. These are not full out race car tunes.

[seslait]

Mike,

I ve been informed, by sources outside this forum, that the SSTT is the safest chip you can put in the car. Do you agree with that? or do you still think the JB3 would be a lot safer?

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by acs1.35i

Mike, please tell me. So, if something wrong with a 135i with a JB3 tune. And you bring the JB3 tuned car into a BMW garage. And the BMW engineers opening the bonnet and/or doing a dyno (which f.i. they do at Schnitzer/BMW) and the cars pulls about 400 bhp (something like that) then those engineers would say: yes, this is a stock car ?

He's already told you. If you're going in for major work, it's a good idea to remove it.

Why do you insist on being so thickheaded about this. You already know the answer to the question. And FYI, it would be very unusual for a dealership in the US to put a car on a chassis dyno.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by acs1.35i

Mike, please tell me. So, if something wrong with a 135i with a JB3 tune. And you bring the JB3 tuned car into a BMW garage. And the BMW engineers opening the bonnet and/or doing a dyno (which f.i. they do at Schnitzer/BMW) and the cars pulls about 400 bhp (something like that) then those engineers would say: yes, this is a stock car ?

We are talking about removing the tune before going in for service. With the JB+ its a 1 minute job, and with the JB3 you can actually turn it off from within the car or just take it out (30min job). With the JB3 off the only way to tell its in the car is if they actually open up the ECU compartment which is not standard protocol, but for added peace of mind you can just remove the tune and since its FULLY PnP there is absolutely no trace of it being installed.

Mike

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by seslait

Mike,

I ve been informed, by sources outside this forum, that the SSTT is the safest chip you can put in the car. Do you agree with that? or do you still think the JB3 would be a lot safer?

The SSTT has been shown to throw codes in certain conditions with the newer software and I think the JB3 is a better choice as it controls more and is a much more advanced tune, and I think it costs the same amount as an SSTT (might be wrong).

This is the best piece of advice I can offer and relates to all tunes.

**If you are worried or paranoid or can't sleep at night with a tuned car, GET A BT CABLE**

With the BT cable you can scan and clear any codes and once you return the car to stock you can scan again and ensure its fine. With a BT tool there are absolutely NO worries and the BT cable is the best tool for the job which is why we offer it as a package with both the JB3 and JB+

Mike

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The SSTT has been shown to throw codes in certain conditions with the newer software and I think the JB3 is a better choice as it controls more and is a much more advanced tune, and I think it costs the same amount as an SSTT (might be wrong).

This is the best piece of advice I can offer and relates to all tunes.

**If you are worried or paranoid or can't sleep at night with a tuned car, GET A BT CABLE**

With the BT cable you can scan and clear any codes and once you return the car to stock you can scan again and ensure its fine. With a BT tool there are absolutely NO worries and the BT cable is the best tool for the job which is why we offer it as a package with both the JB3 and JB+

Mike

I will second everything he said here.

My car is one of the ones that actually did throw a manipulation code while running a SSTT.

That was before the BT scanner was available, and I wouldn't even consider putting a tune of any kind on the car without buying it now that it's out, and is very reasonably priced.

[plasar]

Mike, thanks for all your feedback here, it is very useful and informative, and I do appreciate it.

Some comments specifically for you:

* You say that "Dinan automatically voids your BMW warranty", but I don't believe this is true. (I'm looking for a link to BMW's warranty and exclusions, but am still looking. Dinan's warranty link is below.)

I remember the text of either the BMW warranty or some state/federal warranty law saying that BMW would have to prove that the modification performed was the cause of the failure. The Dinan Stage 2 doesn't automatically void this warranty.

So BMW might repair failures under their warranty, or if not, Dinan's "backstop" warranty would cover it. You correctly point out exclusions in Dinan's coverage for additional non-Dinan mods and "competitive events" (didn't know that).

It seems like the JB tunes have a 14 day money back warranty. That's it.

I'll try to dig up a BMW warranty link to corroborate.


* The Juice Box series of products seems great, but there are many other ECU piggyback and ECU tune products out there. A quick Google showed Vehicular Motion, Encore Innovation, Celtic Tuning, Vishnu, and I know this is a woefully inadequate list (these links below).

Among these products, it seems like Dinan is the only one with the backstop warranty. (And you pay for this.) Other products list their benefits/features - programmability, piggyback or reprogram, power gains, price, etc.

In a way, it's good that your signature discloses that you are selling the JB tunes. In another way, every post you make seems like it should be in the Marketplace section because of this signature.

To me, this thread is starting to come across as a "hard sell" for JB products.


* Last comment - you say "Although most already are aware Dinan and BMW have had a falling out and Dinan is operating at a net loss, and they are trying to sell the company".

Dinan is a private company as far as I can tell, so there is no publicly available financial statements. Do you really know their finances? For which quarters they were operating at a loss, and for how much? Thus, are they really in financial trouble? What's the revenue/profit/loss/market share picture for other companies in the market? (Toyota had a net loss last year. It's a tough economy.)

And you say "trying to sell the company", which comes across rather negatively, as opposed to "taking the company public" or "considering an IPO". There are many reasons a company would go public that don't relate to financial difficulties. Indeed, many times, just the opposite, they are successful and want to grow. Ex. Alpina Gmbh (Germany).

To me, this could come across as a cheap shot against Dinan from someone selling a competitor's product. (But I don't believe that's how you intended it.)


Mike, I just wanted to share the above feedback/thoughts with you. I'm a relative noob reading/participating in 1Addicts for 7 months now. From your posts, I feel you are a straight up guy and have added a huge amount of value to the forum. I'm just getting the willies from some of above items.

Look forward to any thoughts you and the community have.


Here's a couple of links from items above:

Warranty:
Dinan Warranty
Juice Box Comparison Chart

ECU Tunes:
Vehicular Motion
Encore Innovation
Celtic Tuning
Vishnu V3 PNP Harness

Dinan IPO:
Dinan Going Public (Never Happened)

Alpina

Toyota Net Loss

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

No, I'm not going to call, Dan, or anyone else. YOU are going to post something to back this up, or I'm going to call you out on it in every single thread you post it in from now on.

And you've forgotten more about software than I know? I program for a living, and have been doing it for about 15 years, so I seriously doubt that. Good Lord...some of the BS people come up with when they're called out is just amazing!

Only BS here is coming from you, but you already know that. Such emotion and lack of knowledge. You must be a old BAL programmer! If they want, they can tell you have had a tune. End of discussion, and my last reply on this topic. Run what you want, but nothing positive ever comes from you inless it suits your agenda. Now run along, your Mommy has your lunch ready.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

Only BS here is coming from you, but you already know that. Such emotion and lack of knowledge. You must be a old BAL programmer! If they want, they can tell you have had a tune. End of discussion, and my last reply on this topic. Run what you want, but nothing positive ever comes from you inless it suits your agenda. Now run along, your Mommy has your lunch ready.

More babbling and name calling without a shred of evidence. Typical of someone who's been talking out of their ass.

I don't have any agenda at all, other than to prevent misinformation from being perpetuated in this forum, and that's EXACTLY what people like you do.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

It looks like some of the information was removed from the web, but here is a cached version that contains some financial information. It looks like in 2007 a net loss of $1,123,778 (out of $9,151,079 in revenue), and 2008 a small profit, but statements were not audited.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

There are other European flash tuners that also offer a power train warranty, but I believe they are at higher price points. Those options are out there for those that are interested.

If you want around 50hp to the wheels with a reasonable warranty then Dinan is a good option for you. I can pull up some information on the process, but Dinan submits your VIN to BMW and it is then flagged in their system. Any powertrain issue that comes up is denied unless you take your BMW to an authorized Dinan dealer.

The other side of that coin is something that is safe to use, easy to remove, and invisible to the dealer.

Mike