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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > LA Times said BMW car is disposable?!!!



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      10-23-2005, 10:42 PM   #1
redse2000
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LA Times said BMW car is disposable?!!!

Here is the link:
http://www.latimes.com/classified/au...ck=1&cset=true

Does it apply to e90?
Give your opinions...
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      10-24-2005, 08:26 AM   #2
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Yes it does. I've read many reports about this. Here's the reason:

The E90 has a 50/50 weight ratio. That means that 1/2 the weight of the car is in the front, half in the back. Ever wonder how they can POSSIBLY acheive that when the engine is in the front?

It is because from 1/2way up the car the frame goes from welded steel to bolted/glued aluminum.

Steel can be bent and reshaped in an accident. Aluminum cannot without highly specialized equipment. This equipment is sold only by BMW. This equipment can cost upwards of $100,000, so most shops aren't bothering to get it. Even when a shop DOES have it, the cost of repairing a bent front frame may be so excessively high that an insurance company may not cover the repair and may instead just offer to pay you a lump sum depending on the age of the car (obviously a brand new car they'd fix, but in 2-3 years the cost to fix a bent E90 front frame may exceed $10K, and that doesn't count the rest of the repairs/body damage).

In effect, the car is not disposable, but it will take less damage to 'total' the car than a full steel framed car.
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      10-24-2005, 01:00 PM   #3
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Isn't the 5 series and 6 series the only BMWs that have an aluminum front end for the chassis? I don't think it's the case for the E90. It has an aluminum front axle but I don't think it has an aluminum front end frame.

Also, I only see the warning under the hood of a 5 series about the need of special equipment on repairing the front end in case a collision. I don't see such a warning on the E90.

Correct me if I am wrong.
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      10-24-2005, 01:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tctic
Correct me if I am wrong.
You are wrong.

There is floating around here somewhere a video showing the production process of the e90 in a Munich plant.

There you can see, clear as day, that the e90 uni-body has no front or back end and then watch as the robots apply the glue to and then seat the front end onto an e90 frame.
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      10-24-2005, 01:27 PM   #5
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Here's the text of the article...

Front-end repair? Maybe just throw it away

BMW's new techniques and rules restrict what repair shops can do, and baffled insurers are junking the vehicles. Some critics think manufacturers are beginning to make throw-away cars.

By Ralph Vartabedian, Times Staff Writer


If you hear talk about things such as rivets, epoxy adhesives and aluminum structures, you might guess the subject involves airplanes.

But in this case, we are talking about the front ends of recent BMW Series 5 and Series 6 cars, which are constructed with many of the same techniques you might find at the Northrop Grumman F-18 assembly plant in El Segundo.

BMW touts the vehicles for their remarkable handling, fuel economy and elite engineering, but critics of the designs say they are impractical, vulnerable to minor accidents and difficult to repair the way BMW recommends.

The technology is another step in a much broader auto industry trend that is making collision repairs ever more costly, a kinder way of saying manufacturers are building throw-away cars. It means that more cars are totaled when they have relatively modest damage, particularly if they are more than five years old.

Although BMWs can certainly be repaired, it requires a degree of sophistication and cost that may be unprecedented.

BMW will certify auto body technicians only if they are employees of BMW dealerships, using BMW-approved parts, tools, adhesives and rivets. Though independent shops can buy equipment and get training, they are not allowed to say they perform certified repairs, BMW's official seal of approval.

"It is a game," said Don Feeley, owner of three independent body shops in Riverside. "Absolutely, they are shutting auto body shops out of their business."

Of course, BMW does not see it like that.

The BMW system, code named the Grav 60, was introduced in the 2004 model year. It features an aluminum firewall, which separates the engine compartment from the interior, and frame rails that extend forward, all riveted and glued to the rest of the car's steel structure. When the cars come out of the factory they are built to a tolerance of 1 millimeter, about the thickness of a dime.

The entire front structure weighs just 100 pounds, meaning the vehicles have a nearly perfect 50/50 weight distribution between the front and rear wheels, said Jeff Kohut, BMW's paint and body business development manager.

"It handles better," Kohut said. "Go drive a car with a steel nose and you can tell the difference cornering, braking and turning."

But one important question is what happens when your prized BMW gets kissed in the real world. With steel frame cars that are robotically welded at the factory, a body expert can put the car on a rack and bend it back into shape.

Under BMW's guidelines, any bending on the front end is verboten. An accident that deforms the front end by more than 1 millimeter requires the replacement of the main front-end structures. Because the engine, transmission, suspension and body are all connected to those structures, it is a labor-intensive process.

What's more, BMW specifies technicians can use only certain specialized tools, such as rivet extractors and rivet guns. Kenneth Zion, an auto body instructor at El Camino College and an independent collision consultant, says a shop can spend as much as $100,000 to fully outfit itself for BMW repairs. Zion, who has learned the system and will introduce the technology at El Camino, said the new system is unprecedented in how tightly the manufacturer is controlling the repair process.

It is so tight, in fact, that the repair and insurance industries are going a little nuts.

A claims adjuster for AAA, who has examined damaged BMW cars with the Grav 60 technology, says there is no question the repairs are more costly compared to those of a steel unibody.

"Certainly, people are alarmed," said the adjuster, who asked not to be identified because he would be handed his head if he were named. "An identical car made with steel parts would definitely be cheaper to repair. On one half of the BMW, you can have no straightening."

Feeley, among others, says BMW is overblowing the difficulty of repairing the vehicles. "The manufacturers have always said they are building things that can't be repaired, and we have figured out how to repair them," he said.

The broader trend is alarming the auto body industry, which is composed of thousands of mom and pop shops.

"Definitely, some of the auto makers want their certified shops or dealers to be the only ones approved to do repairs," said David McClune, executive director of the California Auto Body Assn. "If a shop has properly trained technicians and equipment, our position is they should have the opportunity to do those repairs."

Kohut said, however, that about 1,000 technicians have gone through BMW's two-day training course for Grav 60 repairs, about two-thirds of them from independent shops. Even though they are not certified, BMW accepts the fact that they can perform adequate repairs.

Although he rejects the idea that repair costs are higher on the Grav 60 system, Kohut said insurers are struggling to understand the technology.

"We have found the insurers are unsure of what to do with a car, so they declare it a total loss," he said. "They weren't sure it would be safe, so they send it to the salvage yard."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Vartabedian can be reached at ralph.vartabedian@latimes.com.
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      10-24-2005, 01:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihavedrivenanm1
You are wrong.

There is floating around here somewhere a video showing the production process of the e90 in a Munich plant.

There you can see, clear as day, that the e90 uni-body has no front or back end and then watch as the robots apply the glue to and then seat the front end onto an e90 frame.
Here's the production video of the E90.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=38
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      10-24-2005, 01:46 PM   #7
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E90 does not have a aluminium front and the front is not just glued on.

As we were shown at the factory the front half and rear half are built seperately, then welded together and the side panels (from trunk to front ) are then welded on that. The roof is then glued AND welded onto the body.

The doors and fenders are then hung on the car
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      10-24-2005, 01:53 PM   #8
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Here you can see

1)The roof supports being welded to the now welded together front ad back sections

2) The side frames being put on and then welded ( they are stamped from 1 complete piece of mettal.
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      10-24-2005, 01:57 PM   #9
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People bitch about NOT getting their cars totalled out because they don't want an accident damaged car. Now people are complaining about disposible cars?

I've got an A8, aluminum space frame, aluminum body panels. There's only one body shop in the pacnw certified to do collision work on the car. But surprisingly my insurance went down when I got the car, not up.

That leads me to believe that insurance rates don't actually have anything to do with collision repair / replacement costs and more to do with personal injury costs. Why not build a disposible car if it meets weight and safety requirements? Just make sure you've got replacement value on your policy.

Or my insurance company could just be really stupid and my whole theory false.
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      10-24-2005, 02:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
E90 does not have a aluminium front and the front is not just glued on.
Glues-on, welded, glued and welded, glued, welded and bolted..?

Does that matter?

Isn't the point of the thread that the front [and to a lesser extent the rear] of the e90 are in fact seperately attached "boxes" and that it is very difficult and expensive to "straighten" and correct main body and front "box" damage because of this type of structural design.
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      10-24-2005, 02:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihavedrivenanm1
Glues-on, welded, glued and welded, glued, welded and bolted..?

Does that matter?

Isn't the point of the thread that the front [and to a lesser extent the rear] of the e90 are in fact seperately attached "boxes" and that it is very difficult and expensive to "straighten" and correct main body and front "box" damage because of this type of structural design.
No, the article they are reffering to is about the 5 and 6 series that have aluminium front sections ( "boxes" ) and steel rear sections

The E90 has mostly the same type of metal throughout its chassis, just like the E46 and E36 and is one complete box when welding is done
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      10-24-2005, 02:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
No, the article they are reffering to is about the 5 and 6 series that have aluminium front sections ( "boxes" ) and steel rear sections

The E90 has mostly the same type of metal throughout its chassis, just like the E46 and E36 and is one complete box when welding is done
I would like to see this authoritatively from a BMW source as I have been told, by numerous sources that the E90 frame is a Grav 60 frame. Of course, none of my sources (including you, E90Fleet) are authoritative BMW sources.

I can't tell from your pictures if that's a BMW or a Ford being put together so your pics don't help at all, especially when you look at the other posts in this thread (jwocky, etc...).
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      10-24-2005, 02:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Fleet
E90 does not have a aluminium front and the front is not just glued on.

As we were shown at the factory the front half and rear half are built seperately, then welded together and the side panels (from trunk to front ) are then welded on that. The roof is then glued AND welded onto the body.

The doors and fenders are then hung on the car
Yep...Some time ago..BMW reasoned they couldn't use the Al process as in the 5/6 series due to cost. Trust me..If the E90's front end was the same as the E60, you'd sure bet BMW would mention it in their sales literature.

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      10-24-2005, 02:56 PM   #14
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My insurance went up by $10/mo when I bought the E90. I just called my rep and he said the 5 series didn't cost anymore than my 3 series to insure.
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      10-24-2005, 03:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatnog
The E90 has a 50/50 weight ratio. That means that 1/2 the weight of the car is in the front, half in the back. Ever wonder how they can POSSIBLY acheive that when the engine is in the front?

It is because from 1/2way up the car the frame goes from welded steel to bolted/glued aluminum.
Sorry, but this is dead WRONG. The reason for the perfect 50/50 weight distribution is caused by a few engineering techniques: RWD, all the couplings are in the back in addition to the battery, this adds weight to the heinie. Also, the engine is mounted in such a way that very little of it pertrudes past the front wheels (axels), which is where the perfect distribution comes from. When a car isn't 50/50, it means that weight is either in front of the front wheels (akels) or behind the rear wheels (axels). It's all about the wheelbase and engine placement prettymuch. That's why you find so many FWD cars have poor weight distribution, all that transmission and engine is hard to keep from spilling out in front of the front wheels (axels).
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      10-24-2005, 03:32 PM   #16
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Hmm...





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      10-24-2005, 06:02 PM   #17
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Pictures that make you go hmmm???
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      10-24-2005, 07:20 PM   #18
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whatever the front of the car is made of, one thing is for certain, DONT CRASH THE DAMN CAR!
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      10-24-2005, 08:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obLu
People bitch about NOT getting their cars totalled out because they don't want an accident damaged car. Now people are complaining about disposible cars?

I've got an A8, aluminum space frame, aluminum body panels. There's only one body shop in the pacnw certified to do collision work on the car. But surprisingly my insurance went down when I got the car, not up.

That leads me to believe that insurance rates don't actually have anything to do with collision repair / replacement costs and more to do with personal injury costs. Why not build a disposible car if it meets weight and safety requirements? Just make sure you've got replacement value on your policy.

Or my insurance company could just be really stupid and my whole theory false.
My insurance went down when I went from a Passat W8 to the E90. Less horsepower, more safety features. I agree with your theory, at least until you substantially add to the value of the car.
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      10-26-2005, 03:07 AM   #20
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I called two BMW authorized body shops... The one wasn't sure and the other told me that it has aluminium parts on the front, but it is not like the 5/6 series..
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      10-26-2005, 10:52 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatnog
Yes it does. I've read many reports about this. Here's the reason:

The E90 has a 50/50 weight ratio. That means that 1/2 the weight of the car is in the front, half in the back. Ever wonder how they can POSSIBLY acheive that when the engine is in the front?

It is because from 1/2way up the car the frame goes from welded steel to bolted/glued aluminum.

The problem with that, BMWs have typically always had near 50/50 weight ratio. Alum. has just been used within the last few years (5 & 6), prior to that steel was the preferred metal of choice and mainly becasue of the cost.
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      10-26-2005, 12:58 PM   #22
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Insurance companies better get used to this. Times are changing, and car manufacturers are starting to use new materials to help keep the weight down. Of course BMW is wanting to do the repairs, would you trust a car this expensive and with newer materials to Joe the autobody guy? I wouldn't.
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