Don't see an M2 in my Future, Soon

[champignon]

I had a chance to drive a 6MT M2 today at the local dealer. This came about because there was one on the showroom floor last week when I took my 135is Convertible in for its airbag replacement, and I was shocked to see that this dealership would have a new car with a MT on the floor, regardless of the actual vehicle model that it was. I haven't seen any new MT cars at this dealership in many years, and only after I looked at it for a minute did I even realize that it was an M2. I have had fleeting glimpses of M2s a couple of times in the last 2 years, when out of state, but not at home. A friend of mine bought a 228ix from a particular salesman at the dealership there a year and a half ago, and I drove the friend in to pick up the car and met the salesman then. I have not personally bought a new car there in 24 years, so have only dealt with the service staff. So, I contacted this sales associate to inquire about the M2 about a week ago. He called me back and encouraged me to come in and to test drive it. So I did, today.

I had a chance to drive it almost 20 miles and to push it a little bit. I liked the car, the way it drove in general, and the general ambiance of the interior although some of the newer instrumentation would take some getting used to. The electric power steering was the best that I have driven, however my comparison is only to a lot of low end cars I have rented, to a lot of BMW loaners I've been given in the 3 and 5 and one in the 2-series, and to my VW Golf R. I have not driven a Porsche with EPS, which I understand to be the gold standard. But, I could live with the steering even though I prefer a good hydraulic rack.

The car drove well; I would not trade my 1M for it, but definitely it is a very nice car and it drives well. I could get used to the dashboard. Were I to buy it, I would get snow tires for it and drive it year round, although would avoid any bad storms or lots of snow. I don't consider it to be collectible in the sense that a 1M is collectible, so I would not avoid year round use in our climate that is not that terrible even in the winter here, plus they don't salt the roads in my state.

I have a lot of cars (6) and no way can I accommodate another one, so the only option were I to buy the M2 would have been to trade in one of my current vehicles, most of which I consider to be collectible and out of consideration. There is a huge sales tax benefit from trading in a car in my state, so selling it privately would not make much sense unless I could get way more for it than it is worth in a private party sale. I would consider trading in my '13 135i, which is a nice, lower mileage car modded a little with BMW parts such as a new M steering wheel, PPK flash, and some M3 suspension parts. Obviously, one can't expect to get back much or anything for mods.

Anyway, the suspect M2 has options worth nothing or less than nothing to me, including the "Executive Package" and the Sunroof, plus a bunch of crap like black grills, etc. There was at least $3500 worth of "fluff" on the car of no value to me. The dealership was not about to go under MSRP, and the offer for my 135i Coupe was not acceptable, to me. So, we went round and round and round and round and round, and in the end I drove off in my 135is Convertible which I had driven to the appointment.

We were $5000 and change away from a deal, and I could see at the outset that this was probably not likely to happen unless one side or the other was going to cave, and it was not going to be me :-)

As I drove off into the sunset with my 135is convertible, which is nearly new and has only 9000+ miles on it, I didn't feel like I was driving a car that was grossly inferior to what I had just test-driven, in fact I rather preferred it in some ways, especially the uncluttered dashboard and the hydraulic power steering.

I suspect I will own an M2 at some point, but this is not the time, right now.

[kprocivic]

One day my friend. 6 cars though, your the man. I almost lost my mind having a m3 and 135i at the same time.

[ayao]

I have this thing for the Golf R and suspect there's one in my future when/if my WRX dies, but I'm still trying to work out if it offers $10k more enjoyment than a GTI.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by ayao

I have this thing for the Golf R and suspect there's one in my future when/if my WRX dies, but I'm still trying to work out if it offers $10k more enjoyment than a GTI.

The Golf R offers a few things over the GTI, which may or may not be worth the premium. Of course, the GTI comes in more than one trim level, so the comparisons may not be 100% correct, depending on the GTI under consideration.

Basically, you get a high trim level with leather seating/interior with the R, plus more HP (~292), plus Haldex AWD, vs. the GTI. Then, perhaps you get a better transmission if what you want is an automatic and the DSG is better than the automatic transmission on the GTI. The 6MT is presumably the same in both vehicles, as are the brakes.

It comes down to dollars and cents and what you want for what you pay.

[ayao]

Originally Posted by champignon

The Golf R offers a few things over the GTI, which may or may not be worth the premium. Of course, the GTI comes in more than one trim level, so the comparisons may not be 100% correct, depending on the GTI under consideration.

Basically, you get a high trim level with leather seating/interior with the R, plus more HP (~292), plus Haldex AWD, vs. the GTI. Then, perhaps you get a better transmission if what you want is an automatic and the DSG is better than the automatic transmission on the GTI. The 6MT is presumably the same in both vehicles, as are the brakes.

It comes down to dollars and cents and what you want for what you pay.

Creature comforts are relatively unimportant to me but I'm just wondering about the fun-to-drive factor and driving dynamics. Anyway, I suppose this thread is about the M2 ...

[Sam_M]

Have you driven a 235i/240i? Just wondering how the M2 steering felt in comparison to those?

I test drove both, having driven to the dealer in my Golf TDi(235i test) and FD3S RX-7(240i) for each test drive and just found the steering utterly numb. I strongly felt that the feedback from my Golf was a million times better nevermind the FD which has been my gold standard for overall feel.

Best electric steering I've driven is the Toyota GT-86, so good I didn't even realise it was electric until after the test drive and started looking into the car more.

[ilikebmxbikes]

M2 is a great car. It is very different than a 1M. Given my pallet I would always pick the 1M but for those who have never driven a 1M or well modified 1er, they would be very happy with the m2.

[burnsniper]

I am fortunate to have had the opportunity to spend significant track time at M School and other events in a 1M, M3/M4, M2, and M240xi and own a 1M and F80 M3 ZCP.

In my opinion, the M2 is basically a 50%|50% mix of an F80/F82 M and a 1M. Less refined and smaller than an M4 but without the balls to the wall edge and character the 1M has going for it. It is also a hoot to drive in Sports + mode which deactivates TC but not stability control. If I needed/wanted a 2+2 $50-80k car today, it would be the one (alas I need a 4 door).

In my opinion:

Most fun: 1M >>>>>> M2/M240xi (the xi was really a surprise) > F80 >>> F82 (the f80 feels like a small large car and the f82 feels like a large small car)

Best looking: F80>1M>>>>>>M2/M4>>M240xi

Best Daily Driver: M2 (great compromise of fun and comfort) > F80 (4 doors, less extincting until way above legal speed) >>> F82/M240xi >>>>1M (rides the harshest and I am always worried about it getting hit, etc. due to its rarity).

Most capable: F80/F82 (these are simply beasts on the track)>>>>>>M2/1M (although to be fair my F8X and M2 times at the M School were very close, however the F8X felt like they had more to give) >> M240xi

The biggest downsides to the M2 are the looks (doesn't have classic BMW curves) and the canted drivers position. For me it also misses the "special feeling" of the 1M (the F80 ZCP has some special feeling due to the CF roof, ZCP exhaust, and 4 door 6MT status). An M2 CSL could be intriguing.... however BMW's latest special model efforts seem more of "milking marketing" than true upgrades - especially when the prices push the cars into competition with the $100,000 pure sports car bracket (911, AMG GT, GTR, Viper, ZR1, etc.).

[champignon]

Originally Posted by ayao

Creature comforts are relatively unimportant to me but I'm just wondering about the fun-to-drive factor and driving dynamics. Anyway, I suppose this thread is about the M2 ...

I don't find my Golf R to be all that much "fun" to drive. It certainly made me feel very confident in snow, with good snow tires, last winter. It has more than enough power and you can pass nearly any car you would want to pass, however the acceleration has a "clinical" feel to it, rather than giving you a "rush," which is what I get in my BMWs and in my 911/996TT. It corners well, but again I don't get a rush from it like I do with my other cars. It's a very competent car, overall, but maybe a little bit boring for what it is. The electric steering is OK, as is the MT, no better than that on either.

The R can be relatively easily modded, but the downside of that is that the built in major systems such as the brakes and the clutch/transmission wear out very quickly and need to be replaced, if you put any more stress on them than the car in stock form does, per many VW forum threads I have read/endured.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by SamM_UK

Have you driven a 235i/240i? Just wondering how the M2 steering felt in comparison to those?

I test drove both, having driven to the dealer in my Golf TDi(235i test) and FD3S RX-7(240i) for each test drive and just found the steering utterly numb. I strongly felt that the feedback from my Golf was a million times better nevermind the FD which has been my gold standard for overall feel.

Best electric steering I've driven is the Toyota GT-86, so good I didn't even realise it was electric until after the test drive and started looking into the car more.

I haven't driven the 235i or the 240i, but I have driven a 228i as a loaner recently. I found the steering to be very light and very numb. An older Golf would presumably have had hydraulic steering, which would be an unfair comparison, but if your Golf has electric power steering then that would be news. My only experience with EPS in a Golf is in my present Golf R. The EPS in the M2 I test drove yesterday was very much superior to that in my Golf R. I don't know if the EPS in the Golf R is the same as the EPS in the GTI. I should add that my Golf R has the "DCC" option, "dynamic chassis control," and you can adjust various things including the suspension dampening and the power steering effort level through that. I have mine set on "sport," which gives the most resistance.

But I think there are at least 2 issues with EPS; one is the amount of resistance to turning the wheel, and the other is the "feedback" that accompanies that resistance. If all you get is the need for additional pressure (which is what I get with my Golf R as you change the setting to "sport mode"), then you are getting exactly half of the equation right. The other half is for the steering wheel to give you feedback as to what the steering tires are experiencing, as you get directly with hydraulic power steering. I don't get any or hardly any of that in my Golf R.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by burnsniper

I am fortunate to have had the opportunity to spend significant track time at M School and other events in a 1M, M3/M4, M2, and M240xi and own a 1M and F80 M3 ZCP.

In my opinion, the M2 is basically a 50%|50% mix of an F80/F82 M and a 1M. Less refined and smaller than an M4 but without the balls to the wall edge and character the 1M has going for it. It is also a hoot to drive in Sports + mode which deactivates TC but not stability control. If I needed/wanted a 2+2 $50-80k car today, it would be the one (alas I need a 4 door).

One thing I did not try and did not comment on was disabling the automatic rev matching with the 6MT transmission; I really did not like that at all, and it frequently resulted in the engine revving up when the clutch was fully depressed and I had no immediate intention of engaging it. I should have experimented with disabled traction control (do they call that "M Dynamic Mode" in the M2 also?) since that also deactivates the automatic rev matching.

[NorthernDancer]

On my military pension, none of the above cars are in my future. I have always driven "medium' horse power cars and keep them a long time. Just recently sold my 27 yr old E30, still looking almost showroom. My 128 has 6MT and sport pkg so I'm happy. It doesn't see winter snow/salt.
I drove M2, M3 and M4 at BMW Performance Center last year. Tremendous cars all of them but I've always preferred smaller cars so M2 was my favorite. All the cars were DCT.
Now if I win a small lottery & being the old fart that I am, I would like to return to just 1 car and being in the North East here, AWD is a must. And I'm finding 2 doors a bit of a pain, I have to be so careful opening the doors not to hit car parked beside me. So, if I were to get a "new" car, it would most likely be a Golf R or an Audi S2.
Now, slightly off topic, we do have 4 cars and a motorcycle and may be buying an old cruiser boat with 2 engines. With that in mind, I just bought and used for the 1st time, my new oil extractor bought from Bav Auto. Yes I can't use it on my BMW but can on the other cars. I'll just say "WOW", am I ever impressed with it. I love it. Our Audi TT has a big belly pan with 20 screws/bolts (of 3 or 4 different sizes) and no trap door for draining oil (my BMW does have it). Sucked out all the oil very quickly and the oil filter is right up top there. Perfect oil change.
Cheers all.

[ayao]

128i M-sport MT is a bit of a unicorn that I'm told offers a very pure driving experience.
Also along the lines of your oil extractor experience, one of the best why-didn't-I-buy-this-sooner tools I've acquired is the OTC 5911 magnetic drain plug remover. No more burned fingers from hot oil!

[doug_999]

Random comments from a 1M/M2 owner based on the above...

All subjective and IMHO...

1. The M2 rides much harsher than the 1M. Maybe cause I'm on the original 1M tires? But I much prefer the ride of the 1M
2. The M2 looks stunning - let's be honest here, without the rear flares, the 1M would be pretty butt ugly
3. The M2's steering sucks compared to the 1M and I'm being nice here
4. The Rev match sucks just about as bad - and I'm in the minority here based on everyone else over on the M2 board. Why they only disable it with all of the nannies OFF is weird - Porsche does it the opposite, cause I suspect you WANT rev match on the track.... So I think BMW does it to save on the trans wear and tear.
5. The Exec package was a must in the 2016/2017 M2, the 2018... well does not add much except for heated steering wheel and adaptive lights - but heck, I still would pay for it cause the heated steering wheel is the best option ever!
6. The M2 is my daily driver - here in Chicago, with snow tires. It is amazingly well planted and sticks much better than the 1M - heck, maybe even with snows on it and yes, like I said, still on original tires with the 1M.


Summary
Cars are changing and not all of the changes (from the driving dynamics standpoint) are welcomed by most enthusiasts. But I think the M2 is about as good as it gets in a modern $50K car and I am really going to miss my 1M when it is gone.

[Mr. Wilson]

Went to cars and coffee this morning in palm beach. Great venue. Didn't bring the 1M this time but seeing what was there including the M2 makes me feel the 1M is all the more special. There will only be one baby M.

[vasmir]

Originally Posted by doug_999

...
1. The M2 rides much harsher than the 1M. Maybe cause I'm on the original 1M tires? But I much prefer the ride of the 1M
...

I actually thought the M2 suspension was softer than my 1M.

And yes, Super Sports are much more compliant than the original PS2s. If you're still riding around on 6 year old tires... time to replace 'em!

[BAN_M2C]

Originally Posted by champignon

I had a chance to drive a 6MT M2 today at the local dealer. This came about because there was one on the showroom floor last week when I took my 135is Convertible in for its airbag replacement, and I was shocked to see that this dealership would have a new car with a MT on the floor, regardless of the actual vehicle model that it was. I haven't seen any new MT cars at this dealership in many years, and only after I looked at it for a minute did I even realize that it was an M2. I have had fleeting glimpses of M2s a couple of times in the last 2 years, when out of state, but not at home. A friend of mine bought a 228ix from a particular salesman at the dealership there a year and a half ago, and I drove the friend in to pick up the car and met the salesman then. I have not personally bought a new car there in 24 years, so have only dealt with the service staff. So, I contacted this sales associate to inquire about the M2 about a week ago. He called me back and encouraged me to come in and to test drive it. So I did, today.

I had a chance to drive it almost 20 miles and to push it a little bit. I liked the car, the way it drove in general, and the general ambiance of the interior although some of the newer instrumentation would take some getting used to. The electric power steering was the best that I have driven, however my comparison is only to a lot of low end cars I have rented, to a lot of BMW loaners I've been given in the 3 and 5 and one in the 2-series, and to my VW Golf R. I have not driven a Porsche with EPS, which I understand to be the gold standard. But, I could live with the steering even though I prefer a good hydraulic rack.

The car drove well; I would not trade my 1M for it, but definitely it is a very nice car and it drives well. I could get used to the dashboard. Were I to buy it, I would get snow tires for it and drive it year round, although would avoid any bad storms or lots of snow. I don't consider it to be collectible in the sense that a 1M is collectible, so I would not avoid year round use in our climate that is not that terrible even in the winter here, plus they don't salt the roads in my state.

I have a lot of cars (6) and no way can I accommodate another one, so the only option were I to buy the M2 would have been to trade in one of my current vehicles, most of which I consider to be collectible and out of consideration. There is a huge sales tax benefit from trading in a car in my state, so selling it privately would not make much sense unless I could get way more for it than it is worth in a private party sale. I would consider trading in my '13 135i, which is a nice, lower mileage car modded a little with BMW parts such as a new M steering wheel, PPK flash, and some M3 suspension parts. Obviously, one can't expect to get back much or anything for mods.

Anyway, the suspect M2 has options worth nothing or less than nothing to me, including the "Executive Package" and the Sunroof, plus a bunch of crap like black grills, etc. There was at least $3500 worth of "fluff" on the car of no value to me. The dealership was not about to go under MSRP, and the offer for my 135i Coupe was not acceptable, to me. So, we went round and round and round and round and round, and in the end I drove off in my 135is Convertible which I had driven to the appointment.

We were $5000 and change away from a deal, and I could see at the outset that this was probably not likely to happen unless one side or the other was going to cave, and it was not going to be me :-)

As I drove off into the sunset with my 135is convertible, which is nearly new and has only 9000+ miles on it, I didn't feel like I was driving a car that was grossly inferior to what I had just test-driven, in fact I rather preferred it in some ways, especially the uncluttered dashboard and the hydraulic power steering.

I suspect I will own an M2 at some point, but this is not the time, right now.

The reason it's on the floor and being allowed to test drive already makes it undesirable.

Like you said, it's fitted with many parts that drive up the MSRP. All most likely added items you can buy afterwards and much lower prices.

Where are you located? My local dealer has had manual M3's and M4 at the lot every now and then.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by BAN_M2

The reason it's on the floor and being allowed to test drive already makes it undesirable.

Like you said, it's fitted with many parts that drive up the MSRP. All most likely added items you can buy afterwards and much lower prices.

Where are you located? My local dealer has had manual M3's and M4 at the lot every now and then.

I live in the mountains most of the time, but my business interests and a house I share with a business partner is in Boise, which is where the dealer is located.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by BAN_M2

The reason it's on the floor and being allowed to test drive already makes it undesirable.

Like you said, it's fitted with many parts that drive up the MSRP. All most likely added items you can buy afterwards and much lower prices.

I would say, yes and no. I believe that the car was ordered by someone, the way that it sits, LBB and Sunroof, at least. I don't know about all the other "candy," e.g. overpriced black grills, etc. For whatever reason, the original purchaser did not close the transaction.

Most people don't pay cash for cars, and will have a trade in. An extra ~$5K spread out over the duration of a car loan probably doesn't matter to a lot of BMW buyers. The car had less than 10 miles on it when I took my test drive; I was told that I was the only customer who had driven it so far, and the sales associate said that generally they don't allow test drives on M2s. I am a very good customer of this dealership, at least of the service dept., and the fact that I even expressed interest in considering buying a new vehicle from them made an impression, I think.

If I was to buy an M2, my first choice would be a "stripper," which I don't think I could realistically get. In a more realistic vein, I'd take a slicktop with no options, which I think is actually possible. The sales associate has gotten back to me by email and he said that he was going to go through their waiting list and also look at what they have coming in the pipeline, and he would see what he could do.

This was actually the first time that I ever went to look at a new car that I was at least somewhat disposed to buy, when at the end of the visit, often taking multiple hours, I did not end up doing a deal. Car dealers are very very highly motivated to close a sale on a vehicle, especially one they have on the lot/floor, because they know once you walk out, the likelihood of seeing you again is not high

[Sam_M]

Originally Posted by champignon

I haven't driven the 235i or the 240i, but I have driven a 228i as a loaner recently. I found the steering to be very light and very numb. An older Golf would presumably have had hydraulic steering, which would be an unfair comparison, but if your Golf has electric power steering then that would be news. My only experience with EPS in a Golf is in my present Golf R. The EPS in the M2 I test drove yesterday was very much superior to that in my Golf R. I don't know if the EPS in the Golf R is the same as the EPS in the GTI. I should add that my Golf R has the "DCC" option, "dynamic chassis control," and you can adjust various things including the suspension dampening and the power steering effort level through that. I have mine set on "sport," which gives the most resistance.

But I think there are at least 2 issues with EPS; one is the amount of resistance to turning the wheel, and the other is the "feedback" that accompanies that resistance. If all you get is the need for additional pressure (which is what I get with my Golf R as you change the setting to "sport mode"), then you are getting exactly half of the equation right. The other half is for the steering wheel to give you feedback as to what the steering tires are experiencing, as you get directly with hydraulic power steering. I don't get any or hardly any of that in my Golf R.

My Golf is an '02 TDI 130.

Personally I don't so much agree with it being an unfair comparison. As a consumer, steering is steering. If Porsche and Toyota can manage decent feel with an electric rack BMW clearly need to either change their implementation or get some better engineers to fettle the existing one.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by champignon

I would say, yes and no. I believe that the car was ordered by someone, the way that it sits, LBB and Sunroof, at least. I don't know about all the other "candy," e.g. overpriced black grills, etc. For whatever reason, the original purchaser did not close the transaction.

Most people don't pay cash for cars, and will have a trade in. An extra ~$5K spread out over the duration of a car loan probably doesn't matter to a lot of BMW buyers. The car had less than 10 miles on it when I took my test drive; I was told that I was the only customer who had driven it so far, and the sales associate said that generally they don't allow test drives on M2s. I am a very good customer of this dealership, at least of the service dept., and the fact that I even expressed interest in considering buying a new vehicle from them made an impression, I think.

If I was to buy an M2, my first choice would be a "stripper," which I don't think I could realistically get. In a more realistic vein, I'd take a slicktop with no options, which I think is actually possible. The sales associate has gotten back to me by email and he said that he was going to go through their waiting list and also look at what they have coming in the pipeline, and he would see what he could do.

This was actually the first time that I ever went to look at a new car that I was at least somewhat disposed to buy, when at the end of the visit, often taking multiple hours, I did not end up doing a deal. Car dealers are very very highly motivated to close a sale on a vehicle, especially one they have on the lot/floor, because they know once you walk out, the likelihood of seeing you again is not high

the car was likely ordered by the dealer, with the added options as markup

IF the vehicle actually was ordered as it sits, and a customer backed out ... if they TRULY wanted to sell the vehicle.. with a buyer in the dealership and an (unwanted ) vehicle to sell.. they would be flexible on the sales price, particularly with the markup they have in it. Since they were NOT flexible on their sales price, that returns me back to my original pretext.. they ordered it that way and are hoping to sell it at MSRP with all the $3500 of gravy..

MANY M2 Buyers have bought vehicles with items they didn't want..

$3500 exhaust systems
$3500-5K of " M performance parts
$2700 DCT
$ ??? in accessories like wheel locks, paint protection plans, door lights etc.

Kudos to you for sticking to your guns and not kowtowing to this dealer.

PS... I'm in love with a stripper... (my BSM 1M..) and if you actually want an M2 stripper, I am sure you can find one..

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by SamM_UK

My Golf is an '02 TDI 130.

Personally I don't so much agree with it being an unfair comparison. As a consumer, steering is steering. If Porsche and Toyota can manage decent feel with an electric rack BMW clearly need to either change their implementation or get some better engineers to fettle the existing one.

I disagree with your " steering is steering comment"... Hydraulic steering is not the same as Electric steering. And clearly... BMW EPS is not the same as others..

the BMW algorithm for electric steering has been HORRIBLE from the beginning for the reasons you and @champignon mentioned. They ARE improving their algorithims and the M2 is the best iteration to date. I am sure the next updated M car (M5 hitting the streets right now) will be the next improved version.

While Porsche or other manufacturers may have better versions of electric steering than BMW ( the cayman/boxster for example is often lauded as having awesome steering via an EPS rack) there is not a car reviewer on the planet that will tell you that EPS is BETTER than hydraulic steering.