Fifth Gear 135i vs. Cayman

[ct323i]

:thumbup:

[adc]

Originally Posted by moff

If Audi can make a similarly sized car but with a Quattro / Haldex drivetrain for under 1400kg (S3) why couldn't BMW make the 1 series lighter? (...) At the end of the day the 135i is only 40kg lighter than the new 635d which is a much bigger car.

Your quoted weights for the 635d and S3 are incorrect.
635d: 1725kg
135i: 1560kg
S3: 1455kg

The 635d is 165kg heavier. BMW measures the weight of these in the exact same manner, so we can confidently use this difference in weight.

The S3 is 105kg lighter - but then the Audi website does not specify "EU Leergewicht", only "Leergewicht". Which means we don't really know if it has been measured with 90% fuel load, 65kg driver and 7kg baggage. Until this is resolved, we really don't know if the S3 is truly lighter or not.

Be that as it may, the Audi 2L 4cyl single-turbo engine is likely to weigh some 30-50kg less than the BMW 3L 6cyl twin-turbo one. The 135i tranny is also beefier/heavier, there must be some additional uprated components to deal with the extra power, etc. So even if the numbers are true, it's not that big of a surprise, is it?

That confuses me!

Using incorrect data can do this to a person.

[ersatzS2]

Anyone know if the 1 had run-flats? If so that's got to be a big advantage for the Porsche.

[0002s]

Maybe it was me but I took this as ENTERTAINMENT and not the Porsche v BMW end all battle.

It was fun to watch the 135i work the track.

The US car mag test will start a whole new debate for the 135i v ALL paper racing debates....oh, I can't wait

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ersatzS2

Anyone know if the 1 had run-flats? If so that's got to be a big advantage for the Porsche.

Wow, that is a VERY interesting point.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by onehots2k

Wow, that is a VERY interesting point.

No question. Get some really nice Bridgestone RE-01Rs or Goodyear F1 GS-D3s and handing should get better.

[heezyo2o]

Originally Posted by moff

At least Top Gear do a serious lap to prove the car's worth on the Top Gear test track with a laptime that can be compared with other metal.

It was the worst comparison / review that I have ever seen.

Top Gear is certainly more entertaining, but I wouldn't put any more weight on top gear's lap times versus fifth gear's comparisons. They're just entertainment either way.

[heezyo2o]

Originally Posted by larryn

I think the most telling part was the first of hte three tests. A timed slalom between two cars, in the exact same conditions, is a great test of a car's handling abilities. With equal drivers, which these two are both skilled, power becomes less of a determining factor, and handling and grip are the two big forces in play.

If you've ever seen a cayman at autocross, they handle slaloms very well. I was esctatic to see the 135i pull ahead.

Not sure power becomes less of a factor. The 135i did very well, but the extra power certainly did help.

Faster slalom times don't always equal a better handling car. Other factors such as tires should be considered. With that said, the 135i beating out the cayman, which weighs less and has a lower CG is a still a good achievement.

[heezyo2o]

If anyone is interested, here's the cayman forums take on things
http://www.caymanclub.net/cayman-com...vs-cayman.html

[larryn]

Originally Posted by heezyo2o

Not sure power becomes less of a factor. The 135i did very well, but the extra power certainly did help.

Faster slalom times don't always equal a better handling car. Other factors such as tires should be considered. With that said, the 135i beating out the cayman, which weighs less and has a lower CG is a still a good achievement.

Well, since the 135i (with runflats) beat the Cayman (normally delivered with Michelin PS2s) in the slalom, I'd say the odds were tipped in the P-car's favor on tire selection, by a fairly large margin.

The Cayman had the upgraded sport wheels on it, which take 235/40/18 front, and 265/40/18 rear. Again, in the Cayman's favor (except for on the drifting, which I thought was rather foolish anyway).

Edit: The guys over at Caymanclub are incorrect. The BMW has the same type of electronic limited slip as the Cayman. They misstated in the show that the BMW had an LSD.

[turbomg]

I don't know if slalom tests have a standard length, but frankly I felt this one was rather short. 200m start to finish. Don't want to dog on the 1 unnecessarily but the huge torque advantage will see the 1 get up to speed much faster, and in such a short space, I can't help but think that was an unfair fight with the underpowered base cayman.

This wasn't a test of maximum slalom speed, it was a 200m sprint with a slalom in the middle.

[larryn]

That was the 1/8 mile slalom that they usually use. I find that sufficient. You'll never see a 15 cones continuous slalom in an autocross, or anywhere else for that matter.

[CoralRed]

Thats what I'm talkin' about! Proves what I thought would be true..Understeer...oh well, I'll have to find some way to correct that!!! Thanks for posting.

[WAY]

Originally Posted by Advevo

Guys it s so easy to make a 135i better.

Just put in some eibach springs they cost 218 euro. 225/40 front tires and some camber adjustments. Then you have the factory understeer countered. My 135i is awesome now.

Advevo, I intend to do exactly that! But maybe with a full coilover. Forget the thicker rear bars as every press article seemed to be talking about.

[WAY]

Originally Posted by ersatzS2

Anyone know if the 1 had run-flats? If so that's got to be a big advantage for the Porsche.

Don't necessarily come to this conclusion. Run-flats have come a looooong way. Gone are the days when run-flats are the devil and you change them out the day you get your new car (as many of us first generation MINI2 people did). I have not got personal experience in this, but I hear that the current generation of rf tyres are as good as their non-rf cousins!

[adc]

Originally Posted by WAY

Don't necessarily come to this conclusion. Run-flats have come a looooong way. Gone are the days when run-flats are the devil and you change them out the day you get your new car (as many of us first generation MINI2 people did). I have not got personal experience in this, but I hear that the current generation of rf tyres are as good as their non-rf cousins!

You've been misled. The Bridgestones RE-050 RFT used on the 335i SP and 135i SP are utter crap.

I replaced mine with Pirelli PZero Nero M+S which are all seasons, and there was a marked improvement in all categories. What does this tell you, that I prefer running some all seasons instead of the stock "max performance summer" tires...


Let me ammend this: the stock runflats will have decent dry grip, but nothing like the best summer tires. They will have bad wet grip and nonexistent snow grip. They will have terrible comfort/compliance over bumps and small road imperfections (potholes, expansion ridges etc.). They will be heavy.

No matter how optimized the suspension calibrations are in the 135i to work with the ruflats, I will ditch those at the earliest possible moment.

[jondodge]

thanks for the link. Test aside, reminds me of how crap that show was and clearly still is! i'm looking forward to EVO Magazine putting it around their track...then you have an apples-to-apples against a pretty extensive database of cars...and no i don't work for EVO.

[WAY]

Originally Posted by adc

You've been misled. The Bridgestones RE-050 RFT used on the 335i SP and 135i SP are utter crap.

I replaced mine with Pirelli PZero Nero M+S which are all seasons, and there was a marked improvement in all categories. What does this tell you, that I prefer running some all seasons instead of the stock "max performance summer" tires...


Let me ammend this: the stock runflats will have decent dry grip, but nothing like the best summer tires. They will have bad wet grip and nonexistent snow grip. They will have terrible comfort/compliance over bumps and small road imperfections (potholes, expansion ridges etc.). They will be heavy.

No matter how optimized the suspension calibrations are in the 135i to work with the ruflats, I will ditch those at the earliest possible moment.

Ok thanks for that. Interesting to note that they are still heavier. That alone would be reason to change them out given they are unsprung weight. I will smoke my first set with a track day and move on to non-rf. :w00t:

[WAY]

Originally Posted by larryn

The guys over at Caymanclub are incorrect. The BMW has the same type of electronic limited slip as the Cayman. They misstated in the show that the BMW had an LSD.

Are you sure Cayman has a eLSD????? That is the first I have heard of this...

[larryn]

Originally Posted by WAY

Are you sure Cayman has a eLSD????? That is the first I have heard of this...

Yep. It's called ABD in Porsche-speak:

PSM also assists when you’re accelerating on a slippery surface, applying the integrated Automatic Brake Differential (ABD) and Anti- Slip Regulation (ASR) functions to help maintain traction and stability.

[grant]

Originally Posted by larryn

Yep. It's called ABD in Porsche-speak:

You are correct. And it sucks...

[TunedM2C]

I say it makes the 135's case that much stronger if they were running runflops.