Car broke down today. Looking at $$$$ repair. Need advice

[mackeroni]

Originally Posted by germ

Update:

...

HOWEVER, there is another problem. When the breakdown occurred, there was very little fuel left (10 mi range). I had to go to an appointment and planned to refuel just after it. When I loaded the car from the stealer's lot onto the tow truck the second time, I noticed that there was practically no fuel left (1 mi range).

...

To be continued...

Didn't I read somewhere that the 1-series fuel pump lives in the gas tank, submerged in gasoline, supposedly to keep it cool and/or lubricated? If your habit has been to run your tank nearly dry before refilling, that has likely caused damage to your fuel pump.

Just sayin'.

[RoundelM3]

I think all of the turbo-engined models have their low-pressure pump in the gas tank - but the high-pressure pump is in the engine compartment. The low-pressure unit primes the high-pressure unit, and the solution for the HPFP failure problem in the N54 engines (aside from a different high-pressure pump design) was a software update that caused the low-pressure pump to start up and prime the high-pressure pump when the car was unlocked or driver's door opened. There was also some talk about ethanol in the fuel damaging some of the seals on both pumps.

In the OP's case, the low-pressure pump may not have been able to prime the high-pressure pump due to the low level of gas in the tank - however, even in a non-turbo car, it's asking for trouble if you let the fuel level get down below 1/8 of a tank or so, particularly in a car that's more than a few years old. Over time, water from condensation and debris collects in the bottom of the tank, possibly clogging the filter or pushing water to the HPFP, causing all manner of problems and possibly not priming the HPFP properly. This is true of ANY brand, not just BMW. Fuel injection systems, especially direct-injection types, don't like trash or water in the fuel. Fortunately, the extended warranty on the high-pressure pump keeps this failure covered out to 110K miles or 10 years. In this case, the HPFP would likely have been ok if the tank hadn't been drained down to almost dry. Water in the fuel can also cause injector failure down the road. Kind of a bummer that fixing the original problem indirectly caused this pump failure to happen.

[luv135i]

My wife let her 3 series get down to the 12 mile range once and then it just started dropping like a rock almost to zero when we had only been like 1 mile. In my opinion when its that low its no longer accurate at all.

[Mr Rooty Von Tooty]

I can handle most problems with my 2010 SLK, since it doesn't have all the technology that my BMW has. When it comes to repairing cars which I have done many times due to my business in the collectible car market. These old cars are a joy to work on due to simple electronics and often plenty of room to get at things. I have overhauled their engines and done other major repairs.

I draw the line at the BMW. When I first got the car, I began to study the various systems that made it work, and I started getting a headache and feeling sleepy. Fortunately, I have a lot of contacts in the automobile world, and I knew of two highly qualified independents in my area. They both specialized in Porsche repairs and secondarily BMW. Their labor rates are half the dealer's because they don't have fancy digs or a lot of employees. At most they are two-man operations.

When it comes to body work, most collision repair places are just like the dealers who want a fortune, but they do have nice waiting rooms with free coffee. My body shop guy operates out of an ugly 2-bay garage. The inside isn't much better. He just repaired a bumper cover on a Benz for me at one-third of what the other guys would charge!

The point is you need to carefully look around in your town for guys that can handle your needs especially for German cars. Don't take you car to a shop that fixes both foreign and domestic. You need to find the guy who specializes in your brand and has good references.

[germ]

This morning I could easily put the car into limp mode. "Engine malfunction" appears.
Then I tried to read fault codes with a couple of iPhones apps, but both showed no errors. SES does not come up.

More on Monday.

[KNS]

Sorry for your problems. The low fuel may have caused or contributed to the failure of a pump already on its way out. I can't see how the shop may done anything wrong here - they went straight to the station and put gas in it.

It sounds like you've got a couple of pricey failures that just happened right around the same time. You did the right thing by leaving the dealer, no reason to go there on a car out of warranty (or even with a car under warranty, in my opinion).

[Mr Rooty Von Tooty]

The low pressure sensor is signaling that the HPFP has failed. This isn't surprising, since your car is an '08.

You are under warranty, so your independent guy is doing the right thing to take it to the dealer to for the extended warranty. So far this guy sounds like a winner.

Also the business about water in the fuel tank due to condensation is one of the great automotive myths:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_c...fuel_tanks.htm

The fuel injectors rarely get clogged up due to the fuel filters. Make sure you change them periodically which they'll do when they change the pump.

[Olgeezer1]

Have to agree with "champignon". I wouldn't be shocked to have to replace a water pump/thermostat and hoses on a now 8 yr. old car, even though the mileage is light. Actually, doing all the hoses is a really good idea due to age and to protect your investment. Your latest problem, man, that's just a drag. Hate getting one thing sorted out only to have something else pop up.

[JimD]

You did the right thing IMHO having the independent replace the hoses and thermostat. They don't really want to put back the old ones and it would be false economy to replace the rest, refill with fresh coolant, and then get a leak in a year from a bad hose. The right time to replace something as cheap as a hose is before they fail. I haven't done it yet on the bimmer but my standard practice on other cars has been to replace all the hoses at about 5 years and put them in a plastic trash bag in the trunk for possible use as an emergency replacement. I like to do belts the same way.

Stated another way, a hose failure is unlikely but the added cost of replacing when the old hose is already off the car is very low. Why take the chance for the few dollars involved?

Also glad to hear you found an independent that was much more reasonable.

[germ]

Update: Good news. The independent replaced the Low Pressure Fuel Sensor and claims that the car is fixed.

I will pick it up tomorrow morning. I hope this is the end of it.

I want to answer to a couple of people who commented:

Originally Posted by champignon

I guess I just don't find it too shocking that a 7 year old BMW would need at least some of these sorts of things repaired or replaced at this point in its life.

Well, I am not shocked, but I surely am disappointed. As a reminder, the turbos failed at 50k.

Yes, I do think that a "first tier" car like a BMW should have better reliability. I doubt that this will happen with my Acura MDX, which is now only two years old. We shall see.

Originally Posted by roundel335

... however, even in a non-turbo car, it's asking for trouble if you let the fuel level get down below 1/8 of a tank or so, particularly in a car that's more than a few years old.

Well, I have been only been refueling my car when the remaining range is below my commute distance. This means that remaining range is anywhere between 5 and 25 mi. I have done this for the past 7.5 years with no ill effects. I doubt that this is causing troubles.

Originally Posted by JimD

Also glad to hear you found an independent that was much more reasonable.

Yes, this guy is good and much more reasonable than the stealer. However, I am still paying $$$$ for something that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I wonder whether I should start thinking about selling this car. While definitely fun to drive, it has turned into an expensive hobby (not to mention the rather terrible mileage). I had planned to keep the car for another 5-7 years, until my kids will be too big to sit in the back seat. Sad to say, my next car won't be a BMW, unless I start reading on these forums and elsewhere that BMW has made giant strides in reliability rankings. I have a gut feeling that this ain't going to happen....

In any case, thanks to those who replied.

[gap]

Had to have my Low Pressure Fuel Sensor replaced last year. My indy said he thought ethanol could have corroded it.

[all4bspinnin]

Originally Posted by germ

I wonder whether I should start thinking about selling this car. While definitely fun to drive, it has turned into an expensive hobby (not to mention the rather terrible mileage). I had planned to keep the car for another 5-7 years, until my kids will be too big to sit in the back seat. Sad to say, my next car won't be a BMW, unless I start reading on these forums and elsewhere that BMW has made giant strides in reliability rankings. I have a gut feeling that this ain't going to happen....

In any case, thanks to those who replied.

Most of us higher mileage cars have all experienced the dreaded water pump issue. When I purchased my car, it had just been replaced so I dodged a bullet so to speak.

On the other hand, you'll soon start experiencing misfires if you haven't done plugs and carbon cleaning.

Basically the list goes on when these cars hit 80k+. Its a time in the cars life that requires you to dump a decent amount of money to ensure another happy 80k. Brakes, fluid changes, plugs, carbon, valve cover gasket, and possibly injectors/HPFP/LPFP can all be issues.

If youre looking for mileage, get something 4cylinder and without turbos

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by Mr Rooty Von Tooty

The low pressure sensor is signaling that the HPFP has failed. This isn't surprising, since your car is an '08.

I don't know about that. My LPFP sensor crapped out on me about two years ago, the dealer replaced it under warranty and my HPFP has been fine since. YMMV.

[hlmiii]

Originally Posted by germ

Well, I have been only been refueling my car when the remaining range is below my commute distance. This means that remaining range is anywhere between 5 and 25 mi. I have done this for the past 7.5 years with no ill effects. I doubt that this is causing troubles.

Well, you could be correct. But ... you could be wrong.

There is no good reason for not playing things safe, especially when the more careful action - refilling the tank - is something you're going to do anyway at some point. Setting aside the issue that if something comes up with ~10 miles left and you don't have the gas, running the pump with a minimum of fluid left is not a good idea.

If you had ever seen the two separated assemblies inside the tank along with the multiple lines+electronics and also understood how they operate, you would almost certainly realize that having a quart or less of fluid sloshing around in the tank is not a good situation for long term reliability.

Good luck with the repairs.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by germ

Update: Good news. The independent replaced the Low Pressure Fuel Sensor and claims that the car is fixed.

I will pick it up tomorrow morning. I hope this is the end of it.

Yes, I do think that a "first tier" car like a BMW should have better reliability. I doubt that this will happen with my Acura MDX, which is now only two years old. We shall see.

However, I am still paying $$$$ for something that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

I wonder whether I should start thinking about selling this car. While definitely fun to drive, it has turned into an expensive hobby (not to mention the rather terrible mileage). I had planned to keep the car for another 5-7 years, until my kids will be too big to sit in the back seat. Sad to say, my next car won't be a BMW, unless I start reading on these forums and elsewhere that BMW has made giant strides in reliability rankings. I have a gut feeling that this ain't going to happen....

In any case, thanks to those who replied.

You will never find a German car, any German car, that is as reliable as your typical Japanese car. That's just a fact, and if you are waiting around for this to happen you will wait a long time, like for the earth to change its axis of rotation around the sun.

BMWs used to be worth owning in spite of their limitations, because they were fun to drive. Unfortunately, that doesn't any longer appear to be part of the master recipe, and BMW is going after the same buyers who seek out the Japanese luxury cars, but perhaps with a bit more prestige, while jettisoning any semblance of producing drivers' cars.

It will probably come back to bite them in the ass, because their sameness with the Japanese brands will beget the obvious comparisons over reliability, which a lot of BMW enthusiast drivers were willing to overlook in the past.

Maybe not so, in the future.

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by champignon

You will never find a German car, any German car, that is as reliable as your typical Japanese car. That's just a fact, and if you are waiting around for this to happen you will wait a long time, like for the earth to change its axis of rotation around the sun.

BMWs used to be worth owning in spite of their limitations, because they were fun to drive. Unfortunately, that doesn't any longer appear to be part of the master recipe, and BMW is going after the same buyers who seek out the Japanese luxury cars, but perhaps with a bit more prestige, while jettisoning any semblance of producing drivers' cars.

It will probably come back to bite them in the ass, because their sameness with the Japanese brands will beget the obvious comparisons over reliability, which a lot of BMW enthusiast drivers were willing to overlook in the past.

Maybe not so, in the future.

To each their own, but I've not had any reliability problems with either my '11 128i M-Sport 6MT or my '13 335i M-Sport 8AT. Having owned Japanese cars in the past (Nissan, Acura, Honda), there were no less issues with those cars than my BMWs thus far. As far as "sameness" goes, compared with either of my current cars, the Japanese cars were about as "fun to drive" as dust on a countertop. They're what I call "transportation appliances". Wait'll the M2 is available in the US next year...then let's hear about whether or not it qualifies as a "driver's car".

[champignon]

Originally Posted by roundel335

To each their own, but I've not had any reliability problems with either my '11 128i M-Sport 6MT or my '13 335i M-Sport 8AT. Having owned Japanese cars in the past (Nissan, Acura, Honda), there were no less issues with those cars than my BMWs thus far. As far as "sameness" goes, compared with either of my current cars, the Japanese cars were about as "fun to drive" as dust on a countertop. They're what I call "transportation appliances". Wait'll the M2 is available in the US next year...then let's hear about whether or not it qualifies as a "driver's car".

Your cars are young; give it a while for the repair issues to come up.

I'm not advocating buying Japanese cars here, I'm simply saying that if reliability is a major criteria in a car purchase, there are better model lines out there than BMW, which has an overall mediocre history in this regard spanning decades. It was better in the more ancient series such as the E36, if only because a lot of what goes wrong could be fixed much more easily by the owner, if he was so inclined. All of the electronics present in more modern cars makes this much more problematic, and it is also harder for your typical local independent garage to work on these cars, unless they have invested in some really expensive electronic equipment to enable them to compete with BMW dealers.

Good continued luck!

[ossi1]

Originally Posted by roundel335

To each their own, but I've not had any reliability problems with either my '11 128i M-Sport 6MT or my '13 335i M-Sport 8AT. Having owned Japanese cars in the past (Nissan, Acura, Honda), there were no less issues with those cars than my BMWs thus far. As far as "sameness" goes, compared with either of my current cars, the Japanese cars were about as "fun to drive" as dust on a countertop. They're what I call "transportation appliances". Wait'll the M2 is available in the US next year...then let's hear about whether or not it qualifies as a "driver's car".

Likewise - no issues with my 135i ...yet loads with my Lexus.

I think we need to look at the nature of the beast as well. Most people buy these cars for a reason, as such they may get driven in a manner that may encourage wear and tear in certain areas over time...

My car is totally stock and im retired - yet on occasion I drive it like I stole it - why ? because thats what its designed for and I can

Over here in the UK the Honda Jazz is probably the most reliable car going - thats wholly down to the demographic of the population who drive them. If you were to drive a Jazz like a 135i then I daresay they would be chucking out the same sort of failures instead of just worn clutches..

[champignon]

Originally Posted by ossi1

Likewise - no issues with my 135i ...yet loads with my Lexus.

I think we need to look at the nature of the beast as well. Most people buy these cars for a reason, as such they may get driven in a manner that may encourage wear and tear in certain areas over time...

My car is totally stock and im retired - yet on occasion I drive it like I stole it - why ? because thats what its designed for and I can

Over here in the UK the Honda Jazz is probably the most reliable car going - thats wholly down to the demographic of the population who drive them. If you were to drive a Jazz like a 135i then I daresay they would be chucking out the same sort of failures instead of just worn clutches..

Certainly, certain performance-oriented parts can wear out more quickly if a car is driven hard.

But that is not really the nature of the problems one tends to find with aging BMWs, the problems that tend to give these cars a mediocre reliability rating compared to some others, over a longer period of ownership. BMWs are famous for having electrical wiring problems, in some cases (like E36 models such as the Z3) due to using rigid and very thin wires in their wiring bundles, which over time get flexed too much and break at points where the wires enter and exit the doors. There are lots of electronic "modules," which can and do break and when they do, are very expensive to replace. There are also lots of cheap plastic parts hiding in these "high end vehicles," such as water pumps with plastic impellers (again, example is in the Z3s, but maybe in current models also), electric seats with plastic gears, which can't themselves be replaced but rather the whole assembly costing hundreds or thousands of dollars needs replacement.

I am sure there are many other examples out there, places where BMW has cut corners or simply made bad materials choices in places where they think no one will notice. But if you own the cars long enough, you ultimately WILL notice, at the repair shop.

[germ]

Originally Posted by hlmiii

Well, you could be correct. But ... you could be wrong.

There is no good reason for not playing things safe, especially when the more careful action - refilling the tank - is something you're going to do anyway at some point.

Good luck with the repairs.

But refueling prematurely is an inconvenience, especially since the tank is already so small.

[germ]

Final update (I hope). The car has been running fine the last two days.
I received an email from the stealer with a link for a survey. I gave it a one star rating. I doubt it will change anything.

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by champignon

Your cars are young; give it a while for the repair issues to come up.

I'm not advocating buying Japanese cars here, I'm simply saying that if reliability is a major criteria in a car purchase, there are better model lines out there than BMW, which has an overall mediocre history in this regard spanning decades. It was better in the more ancient series such as the E36, if only because a lot of what goes wrong could be fixed much more easily by the owner, if he was so inclined. All of the electronics present in more modern cars makes this much more problematic, and it is also harder for your typical local independent garage to work on these cars, unless they have invested in some really expensive electronic equipment to enable them to compete with BMW dealers.

Good continued luck!

I would tend to agree with you on that, but it's true for many car brands - very little one can do to fix issues oneself these days. My older Porsches and E46 cars had more things that were DIY-able, but not so much the 07 E92 and these latest cars. At least it's relatively easy to get the codes read and translated so you know what you're up against. But I've always had either a great dealership and/or Indy shops to depend on for the things I can't handle or warranty issues. As I'm retired now, I don't drive as many miles as I would back when I was commuting to work prior to 2011 (worked from home for last 5 years before retiring). The wife's 128i has had 1 issue that was resolved at an Indy shop in one day at a reasonable cost. I think a lot has to do with how well the cars are taken care of and whether or not you follow the "old school" maintenance schedule as opposed to BMW's intervals and recommendations. In the IT business, we had a saying that "with sophistication comes complexity", and that holds true for today's advanced vehicle systems too.