[wyrm11]

lol I was REALLY confused for a moment there too.

Sorry it looks like I posted essentially the same thing twice...but it's because the posts were merged!

[tctic]

This JD Power study is a very good example of how statistics can still have biases and limitations. There are just too many uncertainties and limitations in these studies that they are worthless to look at in general.

[shragon]

Originally Posted by coreslogic

I think it is important to give everyone some insight other than just 'zomg handling'. Here is an article from CNN regarding new J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Survey. This is the first year they consider design flaws in the ranking and BMW took a hard hit on it. Here is the link but I have quote the section specifically related to our community..

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/06/07/...iqs/index.html

Vehicle brands can vary widely in the two quality measures.

"For example, BMW vehicles have among the fewest defects and malfunctions, along with Toyota," said Ivers. "But BMW approaches controls and displays in a way that creates some problems for customers, leading to more design-related problems overall than Toyota incurs."

BMW ranked well below average in the survey with 142 problems per 100 vehicles.

A BMW spokesman attributed the large number of design-related issues to the amount of advanced technology in the company's vehicles.

"We are known, and we are expected to be, a leader in cutting edge technology," said David Buchko, a BMW spokesman.

New owners may have trouble using some of the vehicles' technology simply because it is unfimiliar to them, he said.

thanks for posting this!!

[shragon]

btw...

These numbers don't surprise me at all.A lot menbers here had a few problems with their cars(rattles,BT,computer updates on a brand new vehicle creating more problems,etc.).I know this for a fact,my sis never took her Lexus rx 300 to the shop for anything but routine maintenance.Even the cheaper Honda Accord has fewer problems than your E90.

[foofighter]

well hats off to Hyundai for making leaps and bounds in their model line, aggressive pricing vs content and overall quality. they are the dark horse and will take a percentage of the market share that they're competing in. But as far as JD Power putting in design as a criteria is lame, because what some people may perceive as a design flaw another may not think so. Skewed and flawed

[ScBlacksunshine]

Originally Posted by quincy

These numbers don't surprise me at all.A lot menbers here had a few problems with their cars(rattles,BT,computer updates on a brand new vehicle creating more problems,etc.).I know this for a fact,my sis never took her Lexus rx 300 to the shop for anything but routine maintenance.Even the cheaper Honda Accord has fewer problems than your E90.

Your comment doesn't really support anything, especially when you're talking about members here complaining about the little things. This would also apply to other makes, if you go to Clublexus, you'll also find owners that complain about small problems here and there, but that doesn't mean Lexus is not reliable. Overall, people that go on car forum on the net and post most of the time tend to be more of a perfectionist then general consumer and hence more people will complain on the forum about this and that (or praise about it more then others) What I have problem with is the the direction JD power is going with for this year's survey, check out the quote below straight from the CNN article, it just doesn't sound right to me. Unfortunately, this will only help elevate more misconception about anything other then Japanese make.

"You won't have failures related to a parking assist system if you don't have a parking assist system," he said. "Then lexus comes out with one and customers don't have any propblem with it"

P.S. I used to have a Toyota Solara, and I've experienced numerous problems with it (O2 sensors/Knock sensors/AC problem/Window sill not fitting right/rattle) now base on your comment, I guess I can say Toyota suck when it comes to reliablity? I think not

[ON325i]

again, statistic bias is indeed a major problem with these generic overall "rankings"

just for comparison between my friend's 05' S40 and my e90

so far.....

Mine: 0 problems 0 visit to Shop

Him: 5 problesm 6 visits to Shop (oh... no loaner too)
- air cond not working
- wind noise
- air bag failure
- tire braking squeel(sp) sound
- remote key low voltage

if the sample space is just us, volvo will be doomed, xDDDDD

[picus]

Originally Posted by e90fan1234

Is the BMW number of 142 below that of 2005? Or is it an imporovement? Just wondering if BMW has fallen or is it more that the industry as a whole has advanced?

This is a good point. Here is last years ranking:



As you can see BMW in fact has better numbers this year, but so does most of the industry. The industry average went down by ~90 problems per 100 vehicles. Pretty impressive overall.

Check out Hyundai, from 260 to 102. Incredible.

[ON325i]

sometimes, u have to wonder, just have to wonder what is the motivation behind all these changes of ranking rules. if u take that into account, then you might get into all these conspriacy thoeries that u just cannot ignore. If something as subjective as design flaws (oh yea, cup holder should not be in ur leg's way) then u know what, do ur ranking however u want...

[scubajag]

Let's not forget that J.D. Powers is a private company that for some odd reason has set itself up as the rater of "everything". Folks, we need to read between the lines. This company does not use critieria that even make sense, and who even knows how it gets its data. Do they call people on mobile phones, ask car dealers etc. I for one would prefer Consumer Reports which at least makes public the critieria and testing means it uses. J.D. Powers cannot be trusted.

[DerekS]

Originally Posted by coreslogic

I think it is important to give everyone some insight other than just 'zomg handling'. Here is an article from CNN regarding new J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Survey. This is the first year they consider design flaws in the ranking and BMW took a hard hit on it. Here is the link but I have quote the section specifically related to our community..

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/06/07/...iqs/index.html

I would like to suggest two "design flaws" that likely hurt BMW in this survey.
First, would be the equipping of the 3 series with run flat tires. From my numerous reviews of customer feedback forums, this seems to be the number 1 complaint by owners of E90/91.
Second, the iDrive/Nav system is not as advanced or as simple to operate as any of the better designed Japanese Nav options.

[aphall]

This survey is upsetting. It's misleading to say the least. Before reading that CNN article, I thought this was purely based on reliability. Then, at the end of the article it states it only pertains to the first 3 months of ownership. That's just crap. There are so many variables that are involved to, such as those that drive their cars only as weekend vehicles vs. daily drivers (i.e. Porsche).

[younghov85]

I feel like all that matters is that there is one car that sets the benchmark for sport sedans and it has been doing that for the last ten plus years straight, and each one of us owns it. So JDpower can say all they want about which cars last the longest and which cars have the best quality, but If you were to have a category on which cars are the most fun to drive and best to own in a 5 year period, I guarentee BMW will ba at the top, and thats all that really matters when owning a car.

[picus]

I'll tell you what. I've owned two of the 3-series recent competitors, and in the end what happened? I came back to the 3-series. As maligned as it is by non-BMW owners, its the benchmark in it's class. Period.

[ward]

every time one of you guys heads to the dealer to complain about some stupid issue like your DRL's or auto locking or something that counts as a problem.....


nice one guys.... real nice.

[THE JEDI]

Um I Don't Care....my Bimmer Is Still Sweet

[akhbhaat]

Guys, this is the initial quality survey, NOT the long term reliability survey (though BMW apparently scored EXTREMELY well in the mechanical defects section, as they have in recent years past). Given that most cars these days seldom (even by expectation alone) suffer from major problems within the first three months of use, this survey is primarily designed to assess the customer's overall impression of the car, particularly relating to build quality (fit and finish, design).

BMW has traditionally scored very high on this particular survey, but as you can see they changed up the format, and BMW took some major hits for ergonomic reasons. For whatever reason, most people don't like iDrive or the revised turn signals and whatnot that BMW has implemented on their newest models...and this badly hurts the car's IQS rating (which now makes the assumption that ergonomics affect the car's perceived quality!). It has absolutely nothing to do with mechanical reliability. And Porsche builds nice, solid machines, but almost nobody in their right mind would rate Porsche above Lexus on the basis of fit and finish/build quality alone. Given the level of electronic technology found in most Lexuses, and the lack of such technology found in the typical Porsche, which car do you think is more difficult to become accustomed with?

These surveys basically rate manufacturers on the number of complaints filed by the survey taker on a given car. Subsequently, a radio display that you have trouble figuring out (yet otherwise works perfectly well) now counts as a "problem."

In the end, remember one thing: it's just a survey. Always consider the source...in this case, people who would probably struggle to use an iPod.

[stressdoc]

The survey is pathetic. If you are too dumb to figure out how to use all the features on I-drive, CA, etc., that counts against the car. Hyundai builds simple, staid cars that a moron can operate.

[Aija]

My car that our family owns:

2000 Lexus ES300 (retired)- about 160k miles, ran into only one problem
1999 BMW 7series (soon to be traded in for the 335) - 100k miles, SO MANY PROBLEMS UNBELEIVABLE
2004 BMW E46 - 28k miles, Has problems but not nearly as bad as 7series and its bareable.
2005 Lexus ES330 (current commuter car)- 38k miles and still running without a problem
2003 Mercedez E-class - No comment

Face it, BMW does have more problems then Toyota/Lexus, waste of time to argue it but the advantage BMW has its not so boring to drive

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by Aija

My car that our family owns:

2000 Lexus ES300 (retired)- about 160k miles, ran into only one problem
1999 BMW 7series (soon to be traded in for the 335) - 100k miles, SO MANY PROBLEMS UNBELEIVABLE
2004 BMW E46 - 28k miles, Has problems but not nearly as bad as 7series and its bareable.
2005 Lexus ES330 (current commuter car)- 38k miles and still running without a problem
2003 Mercedez E-class - No comment

Face it, BMW does have more problems then Toyota/Lexus, waste of time to argue it but the advantage BMW has its not so boring to drive

By the same token, I could use anecdotal reports of the various cars I or my immediate family have owned over the past five years, and the most reliable car would be a GM product (a GMC Yukon, actually) while the least reliable would be a Lexus RX300. Note that all of them have been relatively reliable nonetheless. But how could I could justify the use of these individual examples as legitimate representatives of an entire population?

[ScBlacksunshine]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

By the same token, I could use anecdotal reports of the various cars I or my immediate family have owned over the past five years, and the most reliable car would be a GM product (a GMC Yukon, actually) while the least reliable would be a Lexus RX300. Note that all of them have been relatively reliable nonetheless. But how could I could justify the use of these individual examples as legitimate representatives of an entire population?

That's why you just ignore them and let them think they're right