Evo mag review (UK)

[Devon K]

Originally Posted by Mike Roberts

I wouldn't be too worried about reports of understeer, all carmakers engineer that in to protect the masses should they get 'out of shape' it's easier to correct... nothing a set of 25mm Hartge ARBs (sway bars?) and a slightly wider front tyre won't sort out!

Perfectly acceptable for a standard suspension setup - but for a BMW-described sports suspension? From BMW, maker of the "ultimate driving machine"? Puh-leeease!! It should be neutral out of the box!

[LonghornTX]

Originally Posted by Devon K

Perfectly acceptable for a standard suspension setup - but for a BMW-described sports suspension? From BMW, maker of the "ultimate driving machine"? Puh-leeease!! It should be neutral out of the box!

Every new BMW has understeer built in, why should it be any different on this one? The M coupe/roadster is a perfect example of this....

[semaj]

Originally Posted by Devon K

Perfectly acceptable for a standard suspension setup - but for a BMW-described sports suspension? From BMW, maker of the "ultimate driving machine"? Puh-leeease!! It should be neutral out of the box!

Lawsuits? No problem! Money grows on trees right?

[Mike Roberts]

Originally Posted by Devon K

Perfectly acceptable for a standard suspension setup - but for a BMW-described sports suspension? From BMW, maker of the "ultimate driving machine"? Puh-leeease!! It should be neutral out of the box!

Well yes - to you, me and the experienced test drivers in the mags, its understeering tendancies are an annoying feature.

What you have to consider though is 50%+ of the cars sold are going to be to idiots who can't drive properly, and certainly have no experience in controlling a powerful RWD oversteering car.... every ditzy girl in LA is going to end up ass first in a ditch come the first rainfall if it isn't tweaked to understeer!

If everything was perfect out of the box, modding wouldn't exist.

[larryn]

95% of the 135i drivers will never push the car to it's limits on a track or autocross course. We're getting some reports of understeer from people beating the snot out of these things on a track. How many of the understeer whiners have never been on a track before?

Even if you are planning on tracking it, why the hell would anybody run staggered runflats at either a track event or at an autocross? You would waste $1300 worth of street tires in a weekend at the track. Not too brilliant.

This thing will be perfectly fine for a spirited canyon drive or twisty mountain road. Remember, people are saying it's not a LOT better than a 335i (which is damn high measuring stick as it is), not that it sucks. Seems like people are becoming more "glass half empty" types.

[MastaMind]

Originally Posted by larryn

95% of the 135i drivers will never push the car to it's limits on a track or autocross course. We're getting some reports of understeer from people beating the snot out of these things on a track. How many of the understeer whiners have never been on a track before?

Even if you are planning on tracking it, why the hell would anybody run staggered runflats at either a track event or at an autocross? You would waste $1300 worth of street tires in a weekend at the track. Not too brilliant.

This thing will be perfectly fine for a spirited canyon drive or twisty mountain road. Remember, people are saying it's not a LOT better than a 335i (which is damn high measuring stick as it is), not that it sucks. Seems like people are becoming more "glass half empty" types.

Well said.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by larryn

95% of the 135i drivers will never push the car to it's limits on a track or autocross course. We're getting some reports of understeer from people beating the snot out of these things on a track. How many of the understeer whiners have never been on a track before?

Even if you are planning on tracking it, why the hell would anybody run staggered runflats at either a track event or at an autocross? You would waste $1300 worth of street tires in a weekend at the track. Not too brilliant.

This thing will be perfectly fine for a spirited canyon drive or twisty mountain road. Remember, people are saying it's not a LOT better than a 335i (which is damn high measuring stick as it is), not that it sucks. Seems like people are becoming more "glass half empty" types.

I feel the same way man. I was reading an Insideline Review and a STOCK 335i sedan beat an M3 Competition pkg in EVERY measurable way. That why i love BMW. Always stepping it up.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=119739

[grant]

I think will all the electronic stability features and other assorted nannies to keep the lame drivers from spinning, it's not necessary to build in so much understeer...

[Robert]

I think at the last Audi driving experience the instructor said "I wish manufacturers didn't tune the suspension to understeer so much so as to let natural selection take its place in Los Angeles."

I literally LOL

It's really unfair to compare the steering of a GT3 to a 135i's. Porsche has been building the same car decades over decades, fine tuning, improving and ultimately arriving at such a fine machine. I am not ready to graduate to such a car yet and like Jeremy Clarkson said "Porsche is unforgiving to fools and I am a fool. " =CRASH=

[rupertisalive]

Originally Posted by grant

Agreed! I can tell we might feel similarly, based on what you're driving now. Unfortunately, I have removed my name from the wait list. Might get back on for the Tii version. In the meantime, I may be buying a used GT3 like yours, but a MkII (we didn't get the MkI in the US).

For those who think it's ridiculous to opt for a car that costs over 50% more than a 135i, I am disappointed myself. I hadn't wanted to spend so much. I'm not saying that 135i should be able to compete with the GT3, but I wish it was just a bit more driver-focused (like the Tii).

Cheers

Not sure I'd trade out of the Rs even for the gt3! for the record I too have cancelled my order and I am looking into an Alpina B3. By my reckoning that is a better car because it is 'truer' to the concept of a torquey rlaxed engine, w/decent handling, and a bigger body. if the 135i had been 100+kgs lighter than the 3 series as I was expecting then I would have got it - it would have been both fast and focused. As it stands there is a cigarette paper between it and the 3 series and arguably the 3 series is the better 'value', better looking, more rational car in the end.

As you say, maybe the tii will be the answer, but I was looking for more grunt than that will offer (if , as is likely, it comes with a four banger).

What a shame - basiaclly my 1 series bubble has well and truly burst!

[Mike Roberts]

Originally Posted by rupertisalive

Not sure I'd trade out of the Rs even for the gt3! for the record I too have cancelled my order and I am looking into an Alpina B3. By my reckoning that is a better car because it is 'truer' to the concept of a torquey rlaxed engine, w/decent handling, and a bigger body. if the 135i had been 100+kgs lighter than the 3 series as I was expecting then I would have got it - it would have been both fast and focused. As it stands there is a cigarette paper between it and the 3 series and arguably the 3 series is the better 'value', better looking, more rational car in the end.

As you say, maybe the tii will be the answer, but I was looking for more grunt than that will offer (if , as is likely, it comes with a four banger).

What a shame - basiaclly my 1 series bubble has well and truly burst!

BMW has stated that the figures on the 1 series are incorrect, and it is in fact around 200lbs lighter than a 3 series - but it stands to reason that if a 3 suits your needs better, it's the best choice... Especially an Alpina!

I'm still going to reserve my judgement for when I've actually had it on test drive for a few days. If everything else is what I expect and all it needs is a couple of hundred pounds worth of 25mm ARBs to sort the understeer (as I'd spec. it without runflats from the dealer regardless) then I've very high hopes for my tii.

[grant]

Originally Posted by robert

It's really unfair to compare the steering of a GT3 to a 135i's. Porsche has been building the same car decades over decades, fine tuning, improving and ultimately arriving at such a fine machine.

Robert - I also think it's unfair to expect the 1er's steering to match that of the GT3, as the 1er is a more practical 4-seater and compromises are inevitable.

However, I think your point about decades of development is a bit off the mark. BMW is not exactly a newcomer to the sport sedan scene and I think most careful observers would argue that the steering feel has become worse with each new model, rather than better (the E30 M3 from 20 years ago is still revered as a much better driver's car than anything made 10 years ago or today). BMW has diluted the steering quality at every step of "evolution".

Now, on the Porshe 911 (including variants like the GT3), the evolutionary path has not exactly been one of constant improvement either. There have been many mis-steps along the way. In fact, I much prefer the steering feel of the manual steering cars made prior to 1990 to the power steering versions (I like the manual steering on the 320i from 30 years ago too, although its ratio is a bit too slow and not quite as precise as it might've been).

Unfortunately, once the 911 began to weigh over 3,000 lbs, manual steering became impractical (even though less than 40% of that weight sits on the front tires). Although Porsche's power steering system is one of the very best in the business with regard to precision, feel and feedback, it is still well lacking in those categories compared to what was used decades earlier.

Fortunately, a car like the GT3 takes a good compromise solution like the standard power steering on the base 911 and improves upon that with solid spherical bearing strut mounts (instead of compliant rubber) and other adjustments to make it even better to steer.

But, if both BMW and Porsche had built on what they had created decades ago with the sole aim of improving the driving experience at every evolutionary step (instead of adding more girth and luxury), we'd be in for quite a treat:wink:

[danp]

I'm sure that it'll understeer rather less than the FWD and 4WD competition!

The 1series hatch gets very good writeups handling wise and the coupé will be better (more torsionally rigid and I suspect closer to 50/50 weight balance)

[kere]

Originally Posted by grant

I think will all the electronic stability features and other assorted nannies to keep the lame drivers from spinning, it's not necessary to build in so much understeer...

I agree. I like the way the DTC-button works in the 1-series hatch, press it shortly and TC is off but dynamic stability control is still on and by pressing it for 5sec both aids are off. Many hatch owners I have talked to didn't even know this. Which is weird because driving in the snow is a nightmare with DSC on, try to slide a little bit and it feels like the car wants to stop.
Any track reviews of 123 or 120d?

[grant]

Originally Posted by danp

I'm sure that it'll understeer rather less than the FWD and 4WD competition!

Maybe, but maybe not. I think the Mitsubishi Evo has a pretty sophisticated computerized AWD system that keeps the car from understeering (by allocating power to each of the 4 wheels independently) and can actually be fairly easily drifted (oversteer) with a high degree of control.

[danp]

Originally Posted by grant

Maybe, but maybe not. I think the Mitsubishi Evo has a pretty sophisticated computerized AWD system that keeps the car from understeering (by allocating power to each of the 4 wheels independently) and can actually be fairly easily drifted (oversteer) with a high degree of control.

I was thinking of things less sophisticated like Golf GTI / R32, Audi's etc etc

[kere]

Audis 4wd is less sophisticated?!
I think quattros have been much better to drive since Audi changed the power distribution from 60/40 to 40/60.

[danp]

Originally Posted by kere

Audis 4wd is less sophisticated?!
I think quattros have been much better to drive since Audi changed the power distribution from 60/40 to 40/60.

Yes the RS4 gets great press but the Haldex clutch based A3 models don't get much praise..aren't they predominantly FWD (90%) unless things need to get sent to the rear wheels?

I'm not an Audi fan with the way they stick the engine ahead of the front wheels, tho' believe they have started to address this with the latest A4 onwards (tho' reviews say it's still very dull handling) [latest TT is meant to be good tho' - more so the FWD]

[Devon K]

What you have to consider though is 50%+ of the cars sold are going to be to idiots who can't drive properly, and certainly have no experience in controlling a powerful RWD oversteering car.... every ditzy girl in LA is going to end up ass first in a ditch come the first rainfall if it isn't tweaked to understeer!

That's what the electronic nannies are for. If BMW is concerned about liability, they should make every buyer sign a waiver explaining the dangers of killing the nannies - problem solved.

IF this was a 20K car, having to add extra parts to get a netural handling balance would make sense, but the 135 is a premium cost sports coupe fror heaven's sake. We should not have to pay more for add-ons and void the warranty to get what was promised.

[cracka]

Originally Posted by Devon K

That's what the electronic nannies are for. If BMW is concerned about liability, they should make every buyer sign a waiver explaining the dangers of killing the nannies - problem solved.

IF this was a 20K car, having to add extra parts to get a netural handling balance would make sense, but the 135 is a premium cost sports coupe fror heaven's sake. We should not have to pay more for add-ons and void the warranty to get what was promised.

The understeer issue has been explained definitively.

[Mike Roberts]

Originally Posted by Devon K

That's what the electronic nannies are for. If BMW is concerned about liability, they should make every buyer sign a waiver explaining the dangers of killing the nannies - problem solved.

IF this was a 20K car, having to add extra parts to get a netural handling balance would make sense, but the 135 is a premium cost sports coupe fror heaven's sake. We should not have to pay more for add-ons and void the warranty to get what was promised.

I'm not sure how it works in Canada, but changing a rear ARB here doesn't affect a warranty because Hartge and Alpina are BMW approved and sold at the official dealers, so they will actually do it for you...

I agree you shouldn't have to, but their marketing dept's sticky fingers ruin it for everyone.

Originally Posted by cracka

The understeer issue has been explained definitively.

I read that - excellent piece.

[mgarritson]

A bit more negative camber up front with a bit larger sway bar in the rear - understeer solved for around $250-$300. And, I seriously doubt an aftermarket sway bar will void the warranty.