Just Got The Bavarian Soundwerks Stage 1 Speaker System!

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by kmarei

well hundreds of aftermarket brands would disagree with you on that
specs speak louder than "reviews"
only brand i know of that refuses to print specs is Bose
and i think we can all agree that their sound quality sucks

and giving your specs does not give away your secrets
if i know your speakers are rated to 60 watts RMS
or that their frequency response is 70-23000hz
it does not give me the info i need to make imitation speakers

just like knowing our cars engine output and engine size etc
doesn't mean competing brands can make engine as good
would you buy a car if you did not know the horsepower?top speed? fuel consumption? options etc?
if i simply told you, this car will do everything you need, but i can't tell you more
you'd think i was crazy

It's an apples to oranges comparison. We make a kit designed to work in the factory audio system environment. Specs are a moot point since the only real VALUE of specifications in terms of audio is for you to have a very rough idea of whether they'll match the other components you already have or are planning to use or comparing one product to another -- but our speakers are completely different than anything else on the marketplace and don't follow the usual "rules."

Here, I'll throw you a bone. This applies to our Stage 1 Audio Upgrade for 1 Series w/ HiFi

Frequency response: 60-20,000Hz
RMS power handling: 50w

As for making imitation speakers -- giving specs doesn't give you the ability to make speakers that perform as well. But it gives you the ability to make speakers that have the same specs, which confuses many people. Just like people who don't understand cars assume that 400hp is 400hp but don't appreciate that the torque curve is really what's important in terms of performance, lots of folks don't realize that MORE power handling isn't better, or that the same frequency response doesn't mean a speaker will sound the same, or even good at all.

Look, speaker specs really just don't give you a lot of useful real world performance information about a driver, just like a spec sheet doesn't tell you what the experience of DRIVING a car is like.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by Micah D. Cranman

It's an apples to oranges comparison. We make a kit designed to work in the factory audio system environment. Specs are a moot point since the only real VALUE of specifications in terms of audio is for you to have a very rough idea of whether they'll match the other components you already have or are planning to use or comparing one product to another -- but our speakers are completely different than anything else on the marketplace and don't follow the usual "rules."

Here, I'll throw you a bone. This applies to our Stage 1 Audio Upgrade for 1 Series w/ HiFi

Frequency response: 60-20,000Hz
RMS power handling: 50w

As for making imitation speakers -- giving specs doesn't give you the ability to make speakers that perform as well. But it gives you the ability to make speakers that have the same specs, which confuses many people. Just like people who don't understand cars assume that 400hp is 400hp but don't appreciate that the torque curve is really what's important in terms of performance, lots of folks don't realize that MORE power handling isn't better, or that the same frequency response doesn't mean a speaker will sound the same, or even good at all.

Look, speaker specs really just don't give you a lot of useful real world performance information about a driver, just like a spec sheet doesn't tell you what the experience of DRIVING a car is like.

One problem with your stand on this BSW speaker specs non-disclosure is that it does not conduce to increased sales, as you are actually limiting your business model to people that do not upgrade anything but OEM speakers in their cars.

That does not make any sense to me at all.

I don't think that you really want that, especially if you have a product that simply nobody else in the USA is producing with that plug 'n play concept. The closest competitors that you will find are in Europe with Rainbow and AudioSystems and both publish their specs without any apparent concern about somebody "stealing" their business model.

So let's get real, please. If you don't know the specs or the specs are not that great is one thing. But the excuse about somebody coming at night and stealing your designs because you disclosed your speaker specs is absurd, and I'm being nice with that word.

[mineo77]

Originally Posted by kmarei

well hundreds of aftermarket brands would disagree with you on that
specs speak louder than "reviews"
only brand i know of that refuses to print specs is Bose
and i think we can all agree that their sound quality sucks

and giving your specs does not give away your secrets
if i know your speakers are rated to 60 watts RMS
or that their frequency response is 70-23000hz
it does not give me the info i need to make imitation speakers

just like knowing our cars engine output and engine size etc
doesn't mean competing brands can make engine as good
would you buy a car if you did not know the horsepower?top speed? fuel consumption? options etc?
if i simply told you, this car will do everything you need, but i can't tell you more
you'd think i was crazy

+1

[135iUSN]

Humm. And. Wow at all this back and forth.

What would be nice is the chance to hear the setup in a 1er. To the point actually of having a test car set up and being able to see touch hear, say via the annual automotive venues like Detroit Chicago Cincinnati LA or the like. Or some sort of expo.

Do you have this as part of your marketing plan? Attend a 1er weekend get together to build customer base? Utilize a 1er fan with an installed kit to showcase your prouct? I'd even offer that to help grow the business.

Just some thoughts.

Ok so the speakers are 50w. But you did not compare them to stock output and to which speaker the 50w is for - front rear sub

thanks for listening. If I were sir, I would have a sicky with the details and a 1er rep that we can call and chat with. I think that in itself would pay huge benefits.

For example Tire Rack has. Well we all know who that is as Gil IS Tire Rack in many of our eyes and minds. Heck just say Gil and we know the topic right away.

Ok done wow all this on my iPhone tapping away. I must be addicted to this site alright.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by 135iUSN

Ok so the speakers are 50w. But you did not compare them to stock output and to which speaker the 50w is for - front rear sub

Stage 1 is only mids and tweeters.

[135iUSN]

thx humm i have thoughts on this but will hold off for now...

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by Micah D. Cranman

It's the same reason why throwing a great set of summer tires on a 530i makes it a pretty great performer in a lot of ways. Yes, there are some shortcomings that remain (i.e. power, suspension to some extent) but the foundation for excellent performance was already there but being held back by crappy tires.

In audio, a great set of drivers optimized for the audio system can have the same effect. Is it as potent as upgrading the amp, too? No, of course not, but it's still a significant upgrade.

As for who makes our drivers, we work with a number of contract manufacturers in Asia, many of whom manufacture high end home audio equipment. The drivers are woven fiberglass curvilinear cones with santoprene surrounds and a bottomless suspension design.

Unfortunately, as for specs, we don't release them at this time. Why not? There are several reasons:

1. We have made a very large investment in terms of time and money to establish the optimum characteristics for the components we use in our speaker upgrades. To protect that investment and prevent "copycat" products, we keep the associated information proprietary.

2. Because our speaker upgrades are optimized to operate on the factory amplifier (or in some cases, an amplifier we are designing to replace the stock amplifier), the specifications are not required by end users since we've already done all the hard work of optimizing the components to work perfectly together and there is only one operating environment in which our products will be used.

3. Specifications are not meaningful for comparison between our products and other products which may be used in the same application, primarily because, in general, specifications in the car audio world are more or less fabricated from thin air. Repeated testing has shown time and time again that the performance and behavior of components we test does NOT bear a strong relationship to what we'd expect given the specifications of a product.

Ultimately, you're not "tearing apart" your car to install our products. That's the whole idea. If you want to go back to stock, you can. "Questionable" quality is, frankly, laughable. Look around and you'll see we have a stellar reputation for quality products with excellent performance. They're not for everyone, but we make great product.

Allow me to "throw you a bone"

All your post did was raise more red flags to potential buyers. Almost like a 3 card monty game with secret specs and unknown Asian makers. Sorry to say but I wont do business with Companys that do business without disclosing their cards. There are to many Top Makers who give out this information freely and openly and have long standing Reputations to boot. Caveat Emptor.
----------------------------
You claim your speakers for the Stage 1 have a RMS(root mean sq) of 50w. From my understanding the RMS is an accurate measurement of how much continuous power a speaker can handle and perform at its optimum level. Its not a peak power level measurement. In other words, its about the amount of power a given speaker should be fed to sound its best(give or take). Can you refresh my memory and tell me the wattage per channel put out by the stock amp?

[bkochuk]

it would seem that Stage 1, with no sub change, wouldn't be enough to justify the cost/hassle.

IMHO...

[davemohan]

Wow. This thread has gone to hell in a hand basket, and I thought it took a JB3/Proceede "debate" to elicit this level of idiocy. Plenty of misinformation from several sources, and oddly the vendor isn't the worst offender.

The "front only" vs. "all positions" argument, I guess, is a matter of personal taste. You are never going to get truly smooth frequency response or any form of accurate imaging in a car interior. Other sonic nuances, like attack and decay are almost non-issues; just ain't gonna happen. And unless you drive a Rolls or sit in you garage with the engine off to listen, road noise, engine noise and environmental noise severely limit sound reproduction. So do you try to come as close as possible (not very) to a good home system or do you simply try to create a pleasant sonic experience? It's your call, but it seems the BSW approach would appeal to the later.

It also makes a huge difference whether you will be listening to the bow gliding across the strings of a violin or the latest screamo track. Nothing wrong with either, but the gear that does a great job on one will likely fail with the other. Unfortunately, it seems that it will be a couple of weeks before I can comment on BSW sound quality, but I will be coming more from the violin standpoint. (Or anything that requires accurate reproduction.)

Just for reference, RMS power handling is the amount of continuous sine wave power that a speaker can sustain without physical damage. The speaker may sound great at that level or it may sound like shit, but it won't come apart. Peak power handling is the amount of instantaneous power that can be handled without damage, again no implication of sound quality.

I can, however, comment on BSW customer service and the handling of this situation.

First I would say that "we are a small company" does not justify product ignorance, doling out misinformation, off the cuff responses (which turn out to be wrong) and lack of follow-through. I buy both car and, more often, motorcycle parts from "companies" that consist of a guy in his garage. Some are far worse than BSW, but others really know what they are doing and give a damn about the individual customer.

There is really no excuse for shipping the wrong product, not as an isolated instance, but rather across the board because someone didn't know what to ship. Surely you have some influence over what happens, even if it is just a string of suppliers and subcontractors. (Which is the image you seem to portray here.)

“New product” is not an excuse for product ignorance in your contact people. In fact, new products should be the ones they are most familiar with. Not from experience, obviously, but surely you have some form of training, or at least information dissemination.

The instructions are still an issue, but really, how obvious is that as a checkpoint prior to release? And while a video may be helpful, it does not replace written and illustrated instructions for a multi-step process like this.

As to the resolution, "I expect this to take around 2 weeks" is not something I'm happy with, but I can live with it. If this extends, I would suggest notifying customers BEFORE the date has passed and they start contacting you. Try it, you'll find the results truly amazing.

The problem I have is with the attitude and BS I was handed prior to your post. I can post the entire string of emails, which omit the phone calls but paint a clear picture, but I would guess you can access them from the "rhp" mailbox. I was told definitively that replacement speakers were being drop shipped from "the manufacturer" and that I would have them by the end of the week. (Last week.)

I was also called by "Jason" on Monday, Feb 8, who instantly said the wrong speakers had been sent and that replacements were to be sent. He would call me back later that day or the next morning to confirm and provide tracking information. Never heard from him again. Follow-up is critical in customer relations.

On Friday, Feb 12, I sent an email asking for an update as I had not received a return call, a package, or any form of follow-up contact. (I had been out of town on business with other more pressing concerns.) I received a rather terse (OK, my opinion) reply that they were being drop shipped and "I ASSUME they have already left".) My emphasis, as who would reply with "I assume" to an ongoing problem situation? He also promised to "contact" (I assume the supplier/shipper?) and send me tracking information. Also note that "drop ship" doesn't mean "I'm DROPping this and maybe someone will SHIP it." It does not close an issue.

Later Friday I sent a "what's up" and got back "Just waiting to hear back. I spoke with them the afternoon we spoke on the phone so I would expect the replacements to arrive any day now."

No further contact, so On Tuesday the 16th I again sent a "what's up" and was given a brief synopsis of your new plan and a reference to this thread for further information.

My problem is not with your final resolution, if that's the best you can do and assuming the problem actually gets fixed. The problem is that either I was fed a line of total BS for a couple of weeks, through not one but many communications, or you have the worst internal communications since the Tower of Babel.

Regardless of the merit of your products, you need to get your act together and act like a "company", small or otherwise.

[JimD]

I think I said earlier that I have a hobby of making my own home speakers. I did a couple senior projects while in college on audio equipment and one was on testing speakers. College was 30 years ago for me and a lot has changed but I have done a little engineering work in this area.

The parameters that define a loudspeaker are the Vas, Qts and the resonant frequency. These three parameters are what a speaker design program will use to design a box with the desired frequency response. I checked a few speakers for these parameters versus the published parameters and they were pretty far off. That is one reason you can now buy a little ~$100 tester to hook up to your laptop to measure parameters yourself. If the manufacturers values were dependable, I see no reason there would be a market for these devices.

It is very difficult if not impossible to design a "real" enclosure for a car, however. When an audio engineer designs a speaker, he or she decides if it will be a sealed or ported box (and there are other varieties like folded horns). But how do you seal the enclosure around a speaker installed in the door of a car? There are leakage paths that prevent the spring effect of compressing the air in the box. So even if you knew the parameters you couldn't redesign the car to have a proper enclosure to get the desired response. I do not know how to do this other than try something. I'm sure there are some general groundrules developed over time. The lack of a proper enclosure will tend to make the efficiency lower and will alter the frequency response, especially the bass.

Users also want to know the efficiency and frequency response curve. I did not measure these but I suspect strongly that there is not a lot of consistency in how these are reported either. There is no industry standard that I am aware of. Seeing "data" that I do not know the basis of might make me feel better but I think in this case it could easily be misleading. It would be much easier for a loudspeaker company to fudge numbers than to provide a speaker that really has superior parameters. Most users cannot test the drivers so how would they know you cheated? And if the frequency response in your vehicle will be very different from the test environment (highly likely) how much do you gain by seeing it?

I don't blame BSW for not trying to report too many parameters. What I would love to see is a frequency response curve and sound pressure levels available inside a 1 series. That would tell me an awful lot more than any raw speaker parameters. If they publish the curve, they probably would have to publish starting values. My measurements indicate the stock system if not at all flat and has very little output above 10K (I have the mid level system). I has surprisingly good output down to about 30 hz. I was also testing at a low sound pressure level (60-80db).

Jim

[135iUSN]

Originally Posted by bkochuk

it would seem that Stage 1, with no sub change, wouldn't be enough to justify the cost/hassle.

IMHO...

exactly - sorta like having Dunlop on the fronts and crappy Goodyear on the rears...

[plasar]

ChrisB, I think you've really not been honest and up front with us here.


* You really should have disclosed in your very first post that you received the speakers at no cost in return for the use of your car. (Of course we assume you bought the speakers.)

* When board members sense some bias, you state you were "definately (sic) not paid". Another chance to disclose you received free speakers, and you did not.


I believe Micah when he says he asked for an honest review, but unfortunately IMHO, you have thrown your credibility out the window for not disclosing you received free speakers - $419 + free installation. (And maybe you expect the amp upgrade for free when it is available?)

BSW Stage I Audio Upgrade for BMW 1 Series Coupe 07+ (E82)


Kudos to ismelllikepoop and NYC6 for speaking out and Zivyn for putting 2+2 together.

Originally Posted by Chris_B

I got a confirmation email back and I have the professional system upgrade.

Definately not paid, just extremely happy

Originally Posted by Micah D. Cranman

He received a Stage 1 in return for access to, and use of, his car -- a review was requested but optional on his part. He decided to write because of his experience, not because he was obliged to do so. Furthermore, we asked for an HONEST opinion -- not fluff or anything he didn't feel was 100% accurate.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by Micah D. Cranman

Here, I'll throw you a bone. This applies to our Stage 1 Audio Upgrade for 1 Series w/ HiFi

Frequency response: 60-20,000Hz
RMS power handling: 50w

believe it or not
that might make me buy them
as i have an aftermarket amp that puts out 50 watts rms
and i was afraid i'm blow the BSW speakers
also the 60hz lower end is impressive as most 4" drivers i have seen go to about 80 or 90hz

score 1 for stating specs vs 0 for keeping it a secret

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by 135iUSN

Humm. And. Wow at all this back and forth.

What would be nice is the chance to hear the setup in a 1er. To the point actually of having a test car set up and being able to see touch hear, say via the annual automotive venues like Detroit Chicago Cincinnati LA or the like. Or some sort of expo.

Do you have this as part of your marketing plan? Attend a 1er weekend get together to build customer base? Utilize a 1er fan with an installed kit to showcase your prouct? I'd even offer that to help grow the business.

Just some thoughts.

Ok so the speakers are 50w. But you did not compare them to stock output and to which speaker the 50w is for - front rear sub

thanks for listening. If I were sir, I would have a sicky with the details and a 1er rep that we can call and chat with. I think that in itself would pay huge benefits.

For example Tire Rack has. Well we all know who that is as Gil IS Tire Rack in many of our eyes and minds. Heck just say Gil and we know the topic right away.

Ok done wow all this on my iPhone tapping away. I must be addicted to this site alright.

imagine a car with BSW on the left and OEM on the right
now that would be impressive

[135iUSN]

oh very true... Now this has me thinking as this dang site always does..

I would like to see the speakers for the HIFI logic7 vs stock HIFI and BSW - compare design, magnet size, etc.

I know very little in this area and rely on others to educate me...but I love music.. and now I am curious as to the overall design differences... and regret not opting for the sound pkg upgrade in the 135 -

$875 for BMW upgrade and $589 for BSW (retail once back orders clear $419 for now)

Too bad you can't do a 30 day home test period...

[135iUSN]

The site as a reference link to the Roundel on a write up - but the link isn't working

http://www.bavsound.com/roundpg101.pdf

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by Technic

One problem with your stand on this BSW speaker specs non-disclosure is that it does not conduce to increased sales, as you are actually limiting your business model to people that do not upgrade anything but OEM speakers in their cars.

That does not make any sense to me at all.

Been over this before here:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ght=bsw&page=5

Let me make some additional points. We have an incredibly hard time keeping product in stock as it is. To be honest, our focus is on reworking our supply chain to better meet demand. We are unable to deliver enough product as it is and until we can, there's just not a lot of incentive to share information that could lead to copy-cat products.

I don't think that you really want that, especially if you have a product that simply nobody else in the USA is producing with that plug 'n play concept. The closest competitors that you will find are in Europe with Rainbow and AudioSystems and both publish their specs without any apparent concern about somebody "stealing" their business model.

So let's get real, please. If you don't know the specs or the specs are not that great is one thing. But the excuse about somebody coming at night and stealing your designs because you disclosed your speaker specs is absurd, and I'm being nice with that word.

Frankly, you're missing the point. Neither of those companies sell products meant to be operated on the factory amplifier. Specs are an important consideration when you sell speakers that work with an aftermarket amp. Ours WILL, but we don't support them for it currently and have no intention of doing so until we can deliver more product and have a matching amp.

In addition, it's not whether someone can make a product that performs the same -- it's about whether someone can confuse a customer enough to blur the line between products. From a previous post of mine:

"Totally a reasonable assumption for you to make, but it's inaccurate. Sure, no one can copy electromechanical characteristics from a spec sheet, but people can produce speakers with similar specifications and sell them as "comparable" when they are anything but. It's been our experience that if given the opportunity, people will copy our products.

For example, when we began selling our deck-mounted enclosures we originally gave out dimensions. Lo and behold, copies with those exact dimensions showed up all over eBay, without any regard to bracket design or placement which is what made our products unique. So, we took dimensions down but gave them when people asked. As an experiment, we changed some dimensions when we advised people to see what'd happen, and again copies matching the dimensions we gave showed up.

The point is that the copies don't have to functionally match -- they only have to APPEAR to match to the uneducated customer to part them with their hard earned money for a sub-par product."

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by 135iUSN

Humm. And. Wow at all this back and forth.

What would be nice is the chance to hear the setup in a 1er. To the point actually of having a test car set up and being able to see touch hear, say via the annual automotive venues like Detroit Chicago Cincinnati LA or the like. Or some sort of expo.

Do you have this as part of your marketing plan? Attend a 1er weekend get together to build customer base? Utilize a 1er fan with an installed kit to showcase your prouct? I'd even offer that to help grow the business.

Just some thoughts.

Actually, we are looking at attending BimmerFest this year with a booth for customers to hear the side by side difference of a BSW equipped and a non-BSW car. Great ideas here, things we'd love to execute on as resources allow.

Ok so the speakers are 50w. But you did not compare them to stock output and to which speaker the 50w is for - front rear sub

Not sure how much you know about audio, so maybe you just slipped up when writing this sentence, but if you didn't: RMS power handling does not relate to output -- efficiency does, so stock power handling is irrelevant in this case. Output is very similar to stock since efficiency is, too. In any case, we are referring the front and rear speakers, not under-seat woofers.

thanks for listening. If I were sir, I would have a sicky with the details and a 1er rep that we can call and chat with. I think that in itself would pay huge benefits.

For example Tire Rack has. Well we all know who that is as Gil IS Tire Rack in many of our eyes and minds. Heck just say Gil and we know the topic right away.

Ok done wow all this on my iPhone tapping away. I must be addicted to this site alright.

Again, great ideas. In general, Halston is our forum rep and is a great point of contact. He's going to be on the forums much more moving forward -- the 1 series is a new chassis for us so you'll start seeing him around from now on.

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by davemohan

Wow. This thread has gone to hell in a hand basket, and I thought it took a JB3/Proceede "debate" to elicit this level of idiocy. Plenty of misinformation from several sources, and oddly the vendor isn't the worst offender.

We try to be direct and honest about products. We can't always share all the info requested, but where we can, we do.

...

I can, however, comment on BSW customer service and the handling of this situation.

First I would say that "we are a small company" does not justify product ignorance, doling out misinformation, off the cuff responses (which turn out to be wrong) and lack of follow-through. I buy both car and, more often, motorcycle parts from "companies" that consist of a guy in his garage. Some are far worse than BSW, but others really know what they are doing and give a damn about the individual customer.

Couldn't agree more. To clarify, as I mentioned in my initial response, I didn't mean to excuse behavior, only explain it. You're absolutely right that you've experienced a service failure on the part of our business and we've some issues to deal with. I want you to know we do care VERY much about our customers, but we do make mistakes.

There is really no excuse for shipping the wrong product, not as an isolated instance, but rather across the board because someone didn't know what to ship. Surely you have some influence over what happens, even if it is just a string of suppliers and subcontractors. (Which is the image you seem to portray here.)

We do not physically perform the final assembly of our products, just like, for example, Apple does not either. We depend on 3rd parties because it allows us to leverage their size and capacity and for us to, generally speaking, deliver a better finished product more quickly and for less money. This also means that we are at their mercy should they make a mistake. We do have the ability to create consequences for those in our supply chain after the fact, but we can't, unfortunately, telepathically prevent them from this sort of screwup.

“New product” is not an excuse for product ignorance in your contact people. In fact, new products should be the ones they are most familiar with. Not from experience, obviously, but surely you have some form of training, or at least information dissemination.

Absolutely right, and again, as I said in my first response, I don't mean to excuse any part of your experience, only explain it so you can fully understand the chain of events. We're working on it.

The instructions are still an issue, but really, how obvious is that as a checkpoint prior to release? And while a video may be helpful, it does not replace written and illustrated instructions for a multi-step process like this.

We no longer produce written instructions because the vast majority of end users prefer video and it's a much easier to understand format.

The raw footage was complete at the time of product release, but as mentioned before, we're small and have limited resources. The editing and post production for our videos are done in-house, so if there are other, more pressing issues that have to be addressed, then it can delay how quickly we complete them. We faced a choice -- send product as close to our promised ship date as possible, or delay to release the video. We chose the the former assuming that since our parts are non-critical should an end user receive them before videos were released, they could wait a few days if absolutely necessary.

As to the resolution, "I expect this to take around 2 weeks" is not something I'm happy with, but I can live with it. If this extends, I would suggest notifying customers BEFORE the date has passed and they start contacting you. Try it, you'll find the results truly amazing.

Thanks for the input.

The problem I have is with the attitude and BS I was handed prior to your post. I can post the entire string of emails, which omit the phone calls but paint a clear picture, but I would guess you can access them from the "rhp" mailbox. I was told definitively that replacement speakers were being drop shipped from "the manufacturer" and that I would have them by the end of the week. (Last week.)

I have clarified with the responsible party, at length, that the situation was handled poorly and that should it be handled similarly, resumes will need to be freshened up.

For the record, "manufacturer" refers to our assembly center in Chicago -- they do not actually make the parts (they are made in Asia) but complete final assembly such as connector installation and packaging.

I was also called by "Jason" on Monday, Feb 8, who instantly said the wrong speakers had been sent and that replacements were to be sent. He would call me back later that day or the next morning to confirm and provide tracking information. Never heard from him again. Follow-up is critical in customer relations.

Agreed. We're working on improving this type of issue.

On Friday, Feb 12, I sent an email asking for an update as I had not received a return call, a package, or any form of follow-up contact. (I had been out of town on business with other more pressing concerns.) I received a rather terse (OK, my opinion) reply that they were being drop shipped and "I ASSUME they have already left".) My emphasis, as who would reply with "I assume" to an ongoing problem situation? He also promised to "contact" (I assume the supplier/shipper?) and send me tracking information. Also note that "drop ship" doesn't mean "I'm DROPping this and maybe someone will SHIP it." It does not close an issue.

Later Friday I sent a "what's up" and got back "Just waiting to hear back. I spoke with them the afternoon we spoke on the phone so I would expect the replacements to arrive any day now."

No further contact, so On Tuesday the 16th I again sent a "what's up" and was given a brief synopsis of your new plan and a reference to this thread for further information.

My problem is not with your final resolution, if that's the best you can do and assuming the problem actually gets fixed. The problem is that either I was fed a line of total BS for a couple of weeks, through not one but many communications, or you have the worst internal communications since the Tower of Babel.

I want to assure you that what you were told was not BS, but a function of misunderstood company policies. Let me explain further...

We have a company policy that all replacements are shipped from our distribution center in New York. We do this because, based on past experience, if we involve an assembly center or supplier that is not prepared to deliver product directly to a customer, usually problems or issues crop up and we end up being at their mercy.

However, because this was a new product and in an effort to speed resolution, the two people you dealt with assumed incorrectly that the company policy wasn't applicable. But because there is no specific "process" for "drop shipping" a replacement, it was not handled properly and no progress was made since both parties assumed the other had handled it, leading to the promises incorrectly relayed by the people you dealth with.

In the meantime, the same issue you experience was reported by another end user, at which point all remaining Stage 1 inventory was returned to our assembly center to be corrected.

Fast forward, and now you are, rightly, quite upset, as any of us would have been. It has been, simply, a mess. At this point the correct parts have been confirmed as in transit to the distribution center so we will be able to send the correct parts as soon as they are received.

Regardless of the merit of your products, you need to get your act together and act like a "company", small or otherwise.

And we do -- it is an unfortunate fact that in every business, large or small, in some cases a customer has a bad experience because no business is perfect. I'm very sorry it was you in this case. In the future, should there be anything you need from BSW, please contact me directly so I can arrange for a discount to make up for our mistake.

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by JimD

I think I said earlier that I have a hobby of making my own home speakers. I did a couple senior projects while in college on audio equipment and one was on testing speakers. College was 30 years ago for me and a lot has changed but I have done a little engineering work in this area.

The parameters that define a loudspeaker are the Vas, Qts and the resonant frequency. These three parameters are what a speaker design program will use to design a box with the desired frequency response. I checked a few speakers for these parameters versus the published parameters and they were pretty far off. That is one reason you can now buy a little ~$100 tester to hook up to your laptop to measure parameters yourself. If the manufacturers values were dependable, I see no reason there would be a market for these devices.

It is very difficult if not impossible to design a "real" enclosure for a car, however. When an audio engineer designs a speaker, he or she decides if it will be a sealed or ported box (and there are other varieties like folded horns). But how do you seal the enclosure around a speaker installed in the door of a car? There are leakage paths that prevent the spring effect of compressing the air in the box. So even if you knew the parameters you couldn't redesign the car to have a proper enclosure to get the desired response. I do not know how to do this other than try something. I'm sure there are some general groundrules developed over time. The lack of a proper enclosure will tend to make the efficiency lower and will alter the frequency response, especially the bass.

Users also want to know the efficiency and frequency response curve. I did not measure these but I suspect strongly that there is not a lot of consistency in how these are reported either. There is no industry standard that I am aware of. Seeing "data" that I do not know the basis of might make me feel better but I think in this case it could easily be misleading. It would be much easier for a loudspeaker company to fudge numbers than to provide a speaker that really has superior parameters. Most users cannot test the drivers so how would they know you cheated? And if the frequency response in your vehicle will be very different from the test environment (highly likely) how much do you gain by seeing it?

I don't blame BSW for not trying to report too many parameters. What I would love to see is a frequency response curve and sound pressure levels available inside a 1 series. That would tell me an awful lot more than any raw speaker parameters. If they publish the curve, they probably would have to publish starting values. My measurements indicate the stock system if not at all flat and has very little output above 10K (I have the mid level system). I has surprisingly good output down to about 30 hz. I was also testing at a low sound pressure level (60-80db).

Jim, you've said it quite well and made the point I've been trying to for some time: what is published is usually not the truth, and if it is, it's probably not relevant to your final application. There IS no apples to apples in car audio from one speaker to the next because the ONLY valuable information is how something performs in the car vs. stock.

We DO have plans to publish FR curves and SPL's for all of our Stage 1 and subwoofer systems as we are able to do so.

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by 135iUSN

oh very true... Now this has me thinking as this dang site always does..

I would like to see the speakers for the HIFI logic7 vs stock HIFI and BSW - compare design, magnet size, etc.

I know very little in this area and rely on others to educate me...but I love music.. and now I am curious as to the overall design differences... and regret not opting for the sound pkg upgrade in the 135 -

$875 for BMW upgrade and $589 for BSW (retail once back orders clear $419 for now)

Too bad you can't do a 30 day home test period...

Actually, you CAN do a 30 day home test period:

http://www.bavsound.com/ourguarantee.php

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by 135iUSN

The site as a reference link to the Roundel on a write up - but the link isn't working

http://www.bavsound.com/roundpg101.pdf

Thanks, will fix.